PRO is also useful in Agg AI or AW games, and is decent on Tokugawa and Churchill. I would just buff Castles so it could be more useful overall. It should at least be possible to play an Inf/Arty War without obsoleting them (and this would be a huge buff to Isabella). I would move their obsolescence to Industrialism, or remove Corporation as a requirement for Assembly Line if you want to keep things the way they are.
Wish list for the patch that will never come
- Thread starter Tempesta13
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PRO is also useful in Agg AI or AW games, and is decent on Tokugawa and Churchill. I would just buff Castles so it could be more useful overall. It should at least be possible to play an Inf/Arty War without obsoleting them (and this would be a huge buff to Isabella). I would move their obsolescence to Industrialism, or remove Corporation as a requirement for Assembly Line if you want to keep things the way they are.
So, basicly what you are saying is: they fcked it up, but as i'm not qualified to solve it myself i'm not allowed to say that they fcked up? Farewell, democracy, as now journalists aren't allowed to criticise politicians as they'd fck up too. Maybe.
I get your point, but seriously, that's way beyond comparison. I'm not even talking about implementing ALL of my suggestions, but how hard can it be to set up the game so it actually selects the units i'm clicking on? Give me a break, mouse selection is something that was brought up in the 1970s... and that's one of the most broken features in Civ4. Are you really saying that i should shut up on this because i don't have a clue what i'm talking about? You can't be serious
Just because i think that Civ4 is a great game and Firaxis did a great job on most of the parts doesn't mean i have to praise them in everything what they do, does it? Has to be some sort of USA logic ...
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
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Oh, they can still criticize...those articles just won't get any publicity
. Very "enlightened" approach!ketan
Chieftain
I think if a patch is needed, the community needs to be more focused and suggest only a limited (say top 5) number of fixes instead of throwing around big ideas for what could be an expansion. Eg. probably everyone wants unit selection to be fixed the most.
Otherwise, half the suggestions mentioned in this thread seem to be too big to be included in one patch made by 1-2 programmers. For instance, allowing use of enemy roads or across the board changes in unit costs and strengths. Implementing them may be easy, but without sufficient testing, they may end up being overpowered, mostly because (high-level) players will experiment and will eventually discover some unanticipated tactic. That is what mods should be used for.
Otherwise, half the suggestions mentioned in this thread seem to be too big to be included in one patch made by 1-2 programmers. For instance, allowing use of enemy roads or across the board changes in unit costs and strengths. Implementing them may be easy, but without sufficient testing, they may end up being overpowered, mostly because (high-level) players will experiment and will eventually discover some unanticipated tactic. That is what mods should be used for.
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
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It's not like they didn't know about this 2+ years ago while they were busy breaking overflow and messing with barb galley spawn rate......
VoiceOfUnreason
Deity
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Not at all - I'm saying that if you want the world to change, then change the world.
Modding the game is a solved problem - you can learn to do it. There are plenty of examples. Or you can lead other people to do it (a much more difficult skill).
Expecting a profit driven company to do the work for you because you paid them some money four and a half years ago - that just seems to be wasted energy to me. Firaxis isn't sitting on piles of money wishing they had ideas about how to spend it.
It can be damn hard, actually, even for people who are good at it. Depends a lot on what's really going on under the covers, and how much feedback the developer can get about what's really happening. The UI stack that Civ4 is based on is not one I'm familiar with, so I can't provide specifics.
But here's a hint - they didn't get it right the first time.
No, but given that they did a "great job on most of the parts", and published the work so that it could be modified by volunteers, I'd say that you got your money's worth.
TheWilltoAct
I am observe
The difference that matters is that cavalry move twice. This is enough to trump rifles.
Think a beeline'd rush: we won't be defending with our cavalry, nor will we be engaging entrenched rifles (this would mean our attack window has closed).
Let's nerf Organized and leave Fin alone?
What vicawoo proposed was a BOOST to Org, and a considerable one at that.
Early GP >>>> Late GP
How does Philosophical not give you more GP?
vicawoo
Chieftain
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I meant a nerf to the civic maintenance boost.
People might complain, but just as you could argue protective still has a place in the game, even after losing a bonus relatively stronger than the to the rest of it's benefits, organized would still be useful. It's not like people would stop playing philosophical leaders either if you threw out something that allowed for a much cheaper oxford.
Archon_Wing
Vote for me or die
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Instead of wishing since I don't know enough about strategy, let me speculate...
Hmm, given the trends in the most recent patches of 4 and 5, I expect the following:
-- The Holy Roman Empire has been deemed overpowered, due to its 75% reduction maintenance building and a unit that gains bonuses against TWO unit types. This is clearly too much, and thus now HRE starts with no starting techs.
The game will not be updated to tell you the changes. Wonder why you can't build that road? NOT TELLING.
-- Inca and Rome has been removed from the game, due to player abuse.
-- Barbarian naval units were not effective enough, thus Galley rate is doubled and Triremes may spawn.
-- We have decided that diplomacy has been far too simplistic. Thus, AI leaders will find stupid and petty reasons to hate you now including "You beat us to a wonder", "You are pursuing the same victory as us" and "You are a warmonger despite we are too". The display will not be updated to display these new changes, because we thought it would be better to figure it out yourself. Besides, isn't it funny and surprising to have a friendly civ attack you?
-- Founding religion was found out to be an overpowering strategy. Thus, religions no longer autospread.
-- We found it impossible to win with the Apostolic palace, thus that building will autospread, and you need only 60% to win now. Also, defiance anger increased to 10. That'll teach you to defy them.
-- Deity has been corrected to "Diety"
--We discovered an exploit where players have been begging the AI opponents for 1 gold to ensure a peace treaty. This has been removed.
--Automated workers automatically suicide into enemies. Nothing has changed.
-- The route to function will cause workers to randomly build roads in the wrong direction. This will ensure that players will put more focus into micromanagement
-- Replaced the Aryan Barbarian uprising with the "Alien Abduction" event. This will cause all your cities and units to disappear to suffer a horrible fate of alien experimentation. You will instantly lose and have to start a new game. We figured we'd save 5 seconds of your time doing the same thing.
-- The Nuclear Power plant has been rebalanced. Now, all power plants will randomly explode.
-- When a AI peacevassals to another. The game will tell they formed a permanent alliance, even if they aren't enabled. We figured we'd be honest about this.
-- Increased trading with worst enemy penalty to -20. You should really watch out for who you trade with.
-- AIs will keep track of techs in fear of you being too advanced, even if they don't know you. This was done to be consistent with the worst enemy mechanic.
-- You no longer receive gold for failing to build a wonder. We felt players were abusing the gold beyond its intended purpose.
-- Only one military unit may occupy a tile. However, the AI has not been updated to reflect this.
The best thing about V was that it made me appreciate IV more
Hmm, given the trends in the most recent patches of 4 and 5, I expect the following:
-- The Holy Roman Empire has been deemed overpowered, due to its 75% reduction maintenance building and a unit that gains bonuses against TWO unit types. This is clearly too much, and thus now HRE starts with no starting techs.
The game will not be updated to tell you the changes. Wonder why you can't build that road? NOT TELLING.
-- Inca and Rome has been removed from the game, due to player abuse.
-- Barbarian naval units were not effective enough, thus Galley rate is doubled and Triremes may spawn.
-- We have decided that diplomacy has been far too simplistic. Thus, AI leaders will find stupid and petty reasons to hate you now including "You beat us to a wonder", "You are pursuing the same victory as us" and "You are a warmonger despite we are too". The display will not be updated to display these new changes, because we thought it would be better to figure it out yourself. Besides, isn't it funny and surprising to have a friendly civ attack you?
-- Founding religion was found out to be an overpowering strategy. Thus, religions no longer autospread.
-- We found it impossible to win with the Apostolic palace, thus that building will autospread, and you need only 60% to win now. Also, defiance anger increased to 10. That'll teach you to defy them.
-- Deity has been corrected to "Diety"
--We discovered an exploit where players have been begging the AI opponents for 1 gold to ensure a peace treaty. This has been removed.
--Automated workers automatically suicide into enemies. Nothing has changed.
-- The route to function will cause workers to randomly build roads in the wrong direction. This will ensure that players will put more focus into micromanagement
-- Replaced the Aryan Barbarian uprising with the "Alien Abduction" event. This will cause all your cities and units to disappear to suffer a horrible fate of alien experimentation. You will instantly lose and have to start a new game. We figured we'd save 5 seconds of your time doing the same thing.
-- The Nuclear Power plant has been rebalanced. Now, all power plants will randomly explode.
-- When a AI peacevassals to another. The game will tell they formed a permanent alliance, even if they aren't enabled. We figured we'd be honest about this.
-- Increased trading with worst enemy penalty to -20. You should really watch out for who you trade with.
-- AIs will keep track of techs in fear of you being too advanced, even if they don't know you. This was done to be consistent with the worst enemy mechanic.
-- You no longer receive gold for failing to build a wonder. We felt players were abusing the gold beyond its intended purpose.
-- Only one military unit may occupy a tile. However, the AI has not been updated to reflect this.
The best thing about V was that it made me appreciate IV more
ben-jammin
Emperor
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They made a game that now has had 3 different iterations, various patches, has now only very minor problems left, and is left open to be modified by anybody who wants to. People are still obsessively playing and discussing this game more than 6 years after it came out. That qualifies it for possible best turn based computer strategy game of all time. That's what you call ing it up? Really? By that logic hardly any videogame has ever NOT been ed up by the people who made it.
TheWilltoAct
I am observe
strijder20- you can disregard that portion of my post.
@VoU: I hope you didn't feel offended, reading what i wrote again led me to the impression that it might have been a little bit rough. Please accept my apologies.
Anyway, i don't think that it's asked too much to expect developers to take care for their product. Again: it's not that i'm asking for miracles or that Firaxis goes bankrupt because they patch Civ4 until the end of days, but looking at developers like Blizzard somewhat makes me believe that it actually PAYS OFF to take care for your product for a long time. Yes, Firaxis does not have the financial background Blizzard has, but part of that money still comes from the huge support the community gives Blizzard because THEY DO CARE for their product. Starcraft, Warcraft3 and Diablo2 were patched for like ages, and the games keep getting played - not only because of the constant patching, but something like that still has a huge impact. They dragged me back into Diablo2 when they opened up the possibility to re-skill your character, i even bought a new copy because my old one was lost somehow ...
tl;dr: Blizzard is the living and prospering example that it pays of to care, even if it might cost you some money in the first place.
Sorry that the thread took that route, but i just couldn't let it go
-----
If i knew that my patch would be broadly accepted to be the new "official" patch, then maybe i'd even think about putting work into something like that. But as it is now, it'd really be a waste of time. I rarely use mods, what i want is a patch for the "basis game", a "mod" that is used by the whole community, just like 3.19 etc. But as there's no support to be expected from the developer, that's just wishful thinking...
Anyway, i don't think that it's asked too much to expect developers to take care for their product. Again: it's not that i'm asking for miracles or that Firaxis goes bankrupt because they patch Civ4 until the end of days, but looking at developers like Blizzard somewhat makes me believe that it actually PAYS OFF to take care for your product for a long time. Yes, Firaxis does not have the financial background Blizzard has, but part of that money still comes from the huge support the community gives Blizzard because THEY DO CARE for their product. Starcraft, Warcraft3 and Diablo2 were patched for like ages, and the games keep getting played - not only because of the constant patching, but something like that still has a huge impact. They dragged me back into Diablo2 when they opened up the possibility to re-skill your character, i even bought a new copy because my old one was lost somehow ...
tl;dr: Blizzard is the living and prospering example that it pays of to care, even if it might cost you some money in the first place.
Sorry that the thread took that route, but i just couldn't let it go
-----
If i knew that my patch would be broadly accepted to be the new "official" patch, then maybe i'd even think about putting work into something like that. But as it is now, it'd really be a waste of time. I rarely use mods, what i want is a patch for the "basis game", a "mod" that is used by the whole community, just like 3.19 etc. But as there's no support to be expected from the developer, that's just wishful thinking...
z0wb13
undead
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- Feb 9, 2009
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i actually thought this same thing, a few months ago.
my idea was to make civ4.5 (modname: sieve4.5 TM). the idea was to complete the 3 leader trait combos (industrial/philosophical included), add giant death robots to the endgame, eliminate nuclear meltdowns (except as a 1 time event), make a better map script, and standardize online (shared) game settings.
i don't think that many of my changes are that hard. most of them have already been done. the problem is that we all need to agree on something;p
my idea was to make civ4.5 (modname: sieve4.5 TM). the idea was to complete the 3 leader trait combos (industrial/philosophical included), add giant death robots to the endgame, eliminate nuclear meltdowns (except as a 1 time event), make a better map script, and standardize online (shared) game settings.
i don't think that many of my changes are that hard. most of them have already been done. the problem is that we all need to agree on something;p
dalamb
Deity
Are you sure you want PHI/IND? Wouldn't that be ridiculously overpowered?
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
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<3 archon_wing. Makes my day 
.
.Um the Muse
King
Maybe this goes against the spirit of the original post, but I kinda think that the granary is OP. It's like all of the advances in agriculture and cultivation are ignored in favor of this one building. Besides, slavery would make a lot more sense if you couldn't cannibalize your population.
Also, mercantilism in RL has nothing to do with the way it's implemented. I'd hoped that it would encourage you to hoard gold (that was a major tenet of the philosophy) or possibly provide more gold. It should ideally also encourage you to suck your colonies dry. Maybe you could have it replace all traderoute commerce with gold?
Mercantilism also had very important historical significance. It was the reason for setting up colonies on other continents, it ushered the end of chronic deflation and aristocracy, etc. It should have a more prominent place in the tech tree.
State Property and the other economic civics are, of course, also not historically accurate, and I can think of some tweaks that I'd like to make there, but somehow this one seems the most absurd.
Also, mercantilism in RL has nothing to do with the way it's implemented. I'd hoped that it would encourage you to hoard gold (that was a major tenet of the philosophy) or possibly provide more gold. It should ideally also encourage you to suck your colonies dry. Maybe you could have it replace all traderoute commerce with gold?
Mercantilism also had very important historical significance. It was the reason for setting up colonies on other continents, it ushered the end of chronic deflation and aristocracy, etc. It should have a more prominent place in the tech tree.
State Property and the other economic civics are, of course, also not historically accurate, and I can think of some tweaks that I'd like to make there, but somehow this one seems the most absurd.
Reminds me of the Calabim in FfH. Farm everything and have your Vampires eat your population for promotions. Pretty fun.
It's realistic to whip units, since you're basically rushing people into the army. But it's less realistic to whip things like Forges and Libraries. I mean, are you making buildings out of human flesh?
TheWilltoAct
I am observe
See: The Great Wall.
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