Wish list for the patch that will never come

[VoiceOfUnreason]

The pro version is probably a bit pricey for home use but it does look like there is a free one (standard edition) which has somewhat fewer options. E.g. free one doesn't support turning on and off dynamically so you have to profile a whole run.

That's a nice find. Wrong price point for recreational use, but a nice find.

 

[z0wb13]

Are you sure you want PHI/IND? Wouldn't that be ridiculously overpowered?

i've played with it, and i don't think it's that different from FIN/ORG, the biggest difference being a specialist vs cottage economy.

the worry is that a player could abuse wonder building with great people production. but from my tests, it's not that great. it's certainly better than a lot of other starting traits, but if it's overpowered, then so is roosevelt and darius.

the trick that i used, though, was to add the PHI/IND leader as another japanese character. that way, japan has one good leader, but still has kind of bleh starting techs and UB.

i actually was surprised by how much i liked CRE/CHA together. it really helps the early game, and gives you "half" a warmonger trait. it was a very flexible trait combo. as for ORG/PRO, it's a kind of lame combo, so i made that player roman so at least they had prats.

 

[mtr12]

Everything that got broken by 3.19. Balance is fine for the most part, but perhaps find a boost to the traits considered less favorable...?

Yeah, I think small boosts to rarely-used buildings, traits, and strategies should be the best way to do things. I would do the following:

1) Protective:
-Castles obsolete at Industrialism: Should give Culture players a small commerce boost. Warmongers will able to use Inf/Arty without obsoleting a useful economic/espionage tool. But if they want the big guns, tanks, bombers, fighters, modern armor, etc, they will have to lose it. This should be a decent indirect buff to Protective.
-Double production speed of Security Bureaus?


2) Aggressive:
-Dunno what to do here, it's not bad. Free Combat I promotion on Mounted units too could be useful, but would make Kublai Khan broken. Double Production Speed on an Espionage building like Jail or Int Agency would incent warmongers to go in an Espionage direction.


3) Imperialistic:
-10% City Maintenance might be useful, and would fit with the theme of the trait. Other than that, we could try double production speed on some lategame building. Or Stable.

 

[Kid R]

i've played with it, and i don't think it's that different from FIN/ORG, the biggest difference being a specialist vs cottage economy.

Have you noticed whether the PHI/IND AI's do significantly better? I got the impression Firaxis left it out not so much to nerf us but because with typical AI tactics it made them too strong compared to other AIs. In any case I say put the missing combos in, it feels wrong without them. Give IND/PHI to a poor AI if necessary - e.g. one with low wonder-build inclinations.

^ Castles obsolete later

Actually I don't really see why they have to go obsolete at all. So then PRO gets a discount on a very good building, as well as strengthening that weak area of the tech tree. I think PRO is the only trait that's generally agreed to be very weak though and the rest should be left alone. AGG might be dull but it's a non-trivial bonus, and it comes very early, and on units everyone uses. IMP, OK maybe a half price broadcasting tower or something if you insist

 

[kossin]

I'm surprised obsolete didn't mention unScientific Method

 

[Higher Game]

I'm surprised obsolete didn't mention unScientific Method

Losing monasteries is absolutely fair, put next to the power of biology farms and all kinds of strategies communism can support. It's game balance, not realism.

 

[duckstab]

Protective: ?

The problem with PRO is that it's mostly useless for the human and at the same time overpowered for the AI. It should either be buffed in a way that the AI can't exploit it or nerfed for the AI.

My thought was: cheaper passive espionage effects. A human would benefit by being able to target EPs more effectively and get better information on all the AIs. The AI, by contrast, wouldn't get much benefit because they never seem to do anything with their EPs except poison water and steal techs.

 

[z0wb13]

Have you noticed whether the PHI/IND AI's do significantly better? I got the impression Firaxis left it out not so much to nerf us but because with typical AI tactics it made them too strong compared to other AIs.

i didn't notice them doing that well, however, i did make meiji (ind/phi japan) just as isolationist as tokugawa. it seems to me that poor strategy is a worse detriment than bum traits. for instance i made constantine (pro/org rome) have a high unit prob and be slightly warmongerish, but also made organized religion his favorite civic so he was easy to get along with. on the flipside, i made meiji's favorite civ serfdom, and i made him very pushy about it, which further isolated him.

================================================================

i'd like to add that any civ4.5 patch should start with the BUG mod as its base, and we could add a few leaders and maybe and endgame unit like giant death robots.

as silly as giant death robots (GDR) might sound, i put a lot of thought into it and it could work without unbalancing the game. first, they would be high strength, like 60. second, they would have massive penalties (-50%) for attacking cities, hills and forests. this would make them great raiding units, and stack defenders, but not much else (except in the rare case that two armies meet in the field). they would be the next step in the gunship line, in many ways, with a bonus against armor, and enough moves (+3) to trash another civs infrastructure.

 

[Mylene]

Losing some stuffs with scientific method is balanced, it unlocks the best city tile techs (Bio, but much more important Communism). If there would be no price to pay, SP would be ridiculous

 

[strijder20]

The difference that matters is that cavalry move twice. This is enough to trump rifles.
Think a beeline'd rush: we won't be defending with our cavalry, nor will we be engaging entrenched rifles (this would mean our attack window has closed).

Alright, you are right. For trumping dumb AIs cavs are better.

Early GP >>>> Late GP

How does Philosophical not give you more GP?

It does. But not a lot of them, as the cost of GP rises exponentially.
Of course, an earlier academy is great, but I still don't want Philo to be nerfed while Financial is left alone.

And actually, I'm not behind any nerfing at all. Boosting the weaker traits would allow for more diverse games, with different strategies for each leader. Of course, traits would push you in a certain direction, so changes have to be handled with care.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Have you noticed whether the PHI/IND AI's do significantly better? I got the impression Firaxis left it out not so much to nerf us but because with typical AI tactics it made them too strong compared to other AIs. In any case I say put the missing combos in, it feels wrong without them. Give IND/PHI to a poor AI if necessary - e.g. one with low wonder-build inclinations.

Good joke. This...was a joke...right?

The most consistently effective AI are the city spammers like Cathy, Joao, Justinian, Gilgamesh, Sury. The idiot crowd of HC + wonder whores are only threatening in 1 way most games: culture. In other words, and IND/PHI AI would be utterly terrible as the AI is bad with managing both of those things the traits offer, and would only tend to win when other AI RNG tell them to throw the game by accepting these cesspools of idiot play as bent-over vassals.

IND/PHI overpowered my foot. The only way it happens is the SSE wonder engine, and the AI is bad at that. In human hands? It would be GREAT against the AI (but hardly gamebreaking)...and less great in MP.

 

[Dirk1302]

Give me Phi/Spi anytime over Phi/Ind. If you don't play a focused obsolete like wonder building game industrious just isn't that good.

 

[mtr12]

I like IND, but SPI, PHI, and ORG are better.

 

[duckstab]

^ Castles obsolete later

Actually I don't really see why they have to go obsolete at all.

The thing about Castles going obsolete at Economics is that it forces you to either give up the espionage bonus or delay Free Market. That's either a pain or an interesting choice, depending on your point of view. I think I'd be just as happy with Castles obsoleting with Econ but being available earlier (Construction + Monarchy would make sense, but possibly be too
early. Maybe Feudalism, Machinery, or Civil Service?).

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Castles single-handedly break medieval warfare by forcing 1) tremendous siege counts (you need 25 trebuchets to bombard a castle down in 1 turn, and then you'd STILL have to wait until next to attack...compare this to the investment to bombard in ANY other era) or 2) long durations between attacking each city (when this happens, the AI gets to throw down an extra 500+ worth of units per city, and you eat the war weariness from killing them + losing extra things).

Moving castles earlier = no sell. Not to mention it would make the human nearly impervious to attack (AI siege counts are pitiful and castles give us an eternity to get more units) and encourage the renaissance stomp (units that ignore castles finally) even more.

If you want to buff protective, buff protective...but don't rebalance the game to make protective useful. Simply make protective more useful.

The small % combat bonus while in your own territory is interesting. Also interesting would be giving PRO another building that is consistently useful outside of border cities excepting a very small window.

 

[Um the Muse]

I hope nobody minds that I'm bringing this up again.

Anyway, near the top of my wishlist is higher precision (more decimal places) for production bonuses. Cut down on micro, give a slight boost to Exp and Org (cheap factories, right? Can't remember for sure) and a bigger one to Ind.

 

[Kid R]

The thing about Castles going obsolete at Economics is that it forces you to either give up the espionage bonus or delay Free Market. That's either a pain or an interesting choice, depending on your point of view.

So moving the obsoletion later would make economics too good? Fair point. Castles have such a short life though. It's bad enough gunpowder gets invented virtually before you have time to build any.

Buffs to protective need playtesting really, we can theorise all we like but sometimes you just don't know how it'll turn out. I mean the simplest thing, and consistent with the existing trait, would be add guerilla 1 to the defensive promo package. Too strong, hardly. Interesting, yes.

 

[Mylene]

Ind + Phi would be very overpowered ~~
They'd work so well together, example..go for Pyras, receive your GE quick, settle him to make your Capi even better (under Rep. it's very good) or rushbuy some wonder with not much time left.
Get TGL (now marble doesn't matter so much) and create loads of GP + science.
Soo what's different? Much lower chance of losing those wonders, benefits where with FIN, ORG etc. you could only dream about. All done very very fast.

 

[playshogi]

When using multiple GP for a golden Age: the ability to select which ones to use.

Change Chichen Itza to, free castle in every city with walls. Protective can build it at half price.

 

[Archon_Wing]

What I'd wish, of course given my lack of skillz isn't that sound but for lulz...
-- Fix overflow
-- Workers no longer run into enemy units, if actions are queued. They will stop.
-- Peace Treaties scale with speed.
-- Trading with worst enemies only starts applying when the civilization knows you.
-- Barbarian galleys reduced to 25% spawn rate. However, Barbarian triremes, galleons, and privateers may appear... the last may spawn in any ocean tile.
-- AP Defiance anger duration reduced by 25% if not running the AP religion, reduced by 75% if in Free religion
-- Protective Civs suffer 20% less anger duration from defiance and draft anger due to their undying faith in their parental figure of a leader.
-- AP win only possible if:
There is an opponent
Every civilization has votes equal to or higher than 50% of their population. (Example: Shaka has 100 population total. He must have at least 50 or more votes. Naturally if everyone adopts the AP religion this is easier, but... that's the point)
-- Hagia Sophia enables all labor civics, and never obsoletes. Hoy hoy serfdom!
-- The above Chicken Pizza idea is pretty good
-- Walls and Castles do not obsolete til Artliery
-- Walls give 1 EP
-- Vassals that can break away but choose not to suffer +1 anger, +1 anger per 20 turns as a vassal "We demand independence!" This does not apply to colonies.
-- Vassals cannot use the culture slider.
-- First to Sci Meth instead of Physics earns a Great Scientist
-- First to Future Tech earns a great person of your choosing
-- First to Divine Right earns a Great Prophet
-- Space Elevator moved to Superconductors.
-- Emancipation provides +1 happiness
-- Monasteries lose science bonus after Sci Meth but can still be built for culture and building missionaries
Assembly Plant: +10% more hammers
Panzer: 3 moves, starts with march
Navy Seal: Increase to 27 Str
Landcrap: Renamed to landcrap.
J/k, make it 7 str
All Civs start with a warrior now
Scouts cost 10 hammers
Quecha: Reduce to 75% bonus vs archer.
Dun: 1
-- Events:
Aryan archers cannot spawn til 1000 BC
Replaced Bermuda Triangle with YARR Pirates attack; event requires combustion. Hopefully a few privateers won't be able to damage those destroyers