Wonder Elimination Thread

[elprofesor]

Pre-patch, a free tech gets you closer to Steel, which is pretty much an "I win" button except on the harder difficulties. An extra SP isn't that radical. Plus, GL gets you a GS point.

Or at least that's the reasoning behind the preference for the GL over the Oracle.

 

[Bezurn]

Oracle also gets you a GS point, so that point, is a wash. A SP can get you theocracy or scholo much faster, both of which are also 'I win buttons'.

 

[elprofesor]

It depends. Theocracy isn't an "I win" button, rather a "I don't lose" button: it enables a big puppet empire, but you have to get that empire first (thus steel).
For scholasticism, you need loads of money to bribe enough CS. You can only get that much money through resource selling and/or puppets. But if you want to have that many resources, either you play as Arabia or you go conquering (thus, steel again).

Also, neither scholasticism nor theocracy depend on the number of SPs you already have (since neither tree will be unlocked by the time you build the oracle); they depend on the era you are in, you need science to unlock them. A free tech is better than a free SP if you want to get them faster.

I didn't know Oracle had a GS point, sorry about that.

PS: of course, YMMV.

 

[civnoob13]

Big Ben 28
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 29
Himeji Castle 33
Pentagon 24
Sistine Chapel 24
Statue of Liberty 28
Stonehenge 41
Forbidden Palace 27
Great Library 10
Hagia Sophia 21
Oracle 7
Porcelain Tower 20
Pyramids 27

The cristo is always very useful for any game because it speeds up SP acquisition so much, whereas I never feel the need for the great library and am not a fan of the, in my opinion exploitative, longsword rush.

 

[doctorfork]

Big Ben 28
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 29
Himeji Castle 33
Pentagon 24
Sistine Chapel 24
Statue of Liberty 28
Stonehenge 41
Forbidden Palace 28
Great Library 8
Hagia Sophia 21
Oracle 7
Porcelain Tower 20
Pyramids 27

I admit the Oracle is better than the GL on the basis of how much easier it is to get tech-something I hadn't really considered in previous voting. GL goes down for today.

I've been hesitant to bump the FP up before because it's effect isn't so useful on smaller empires-but if you're warmongering you can't win without it. (Not that I necessarily build it in all conquest games, but if I don't build it, the civ that did gets a lot of military attention from me all of a sudden)

 

[elprofesor]

Big Ben 29
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 29
Himeji Castle 33
Pentagon 24
Sistine Chapel 24
Statue of Liberty 28
Stonehenge 41
Forbidden Palace 28
Great Library 8
Hagia Sophia 21
Oracle 5 I think I've made my point already (even if it seems to be subject to discussion)
Porcelain Tower 20
Pyramids 27

Big Ben: cheaper rush-buys means more adaptability to unexpected situations, and makes it more viable to settle new cities late-game.

 

[NicTeos]

Big Ben 29
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 29
Himeji Castle 33
Pentagon 24
Sistine Chapel 24
Statue of Liberty 28
Stonehenge 41
Forbidden Palace 29
Great Library 6
Hagia Sophia 21
Oracle 5
Porcelain Tower 20
Pyramids 27

FP - Scaling Happiness Wonder
GL - I prefer Oracle, one tech-bulb is nice - but free SP is more nice

 

[Randall Turner]

I admit the Oracle is better than the GL on the basis of how much easier it is to get tech-something I hadn't really considered in previous voting. GL goes down for today.

Guys, we don't have to agree on wonders. It's actually better if we see things a bit differently - that way, the wonder we pick to downgrade doesn't go off the list immediately, and we can vote without too much thinking the next day.

Professor's rushy playstyle viewpoint and Tabarnak's multiplayer opinion are both fine, and you'll note that even with my policy-centric/big game bias I'm not actually bumping the Oracle.

What I think is important is just to understand the other voter's rationale, consensus isn't necessary (or even desireable if we want to vote quick).

Same votes as yesterday for me! (see? easy!)

Big Ben 29
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 30
Himeji Castle 33
Pentagon 24
Sistine Chapel 24
Statue of Liberty 28
Stonehenge 41
Forbidden Palace 29
Great Library 6
Hagia Sophia 21
Oracle 5
Porcelain Tower 18
Pyramids 27


ps - there's an overall Civ V guide in the strategy forums. It rates wonders, and tends to conform to what people like Vexing and MadDjinn and other SP Deity players feel. However, it misses things - for instance, it also rates policies like Oligarchy and Military Caste as "minor" w/o considering the synergistic effects in large games. (ie, says "only border cities can afford to garrison" etc.) Very good guide, but at the end of the day we want to judge for ourselvs based on our own experience, we'll have differences of opinion.

 

[Bezurn]

Big Ben 29
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 30
Himeji Castle 34
Pentagon 24
Sistine Chapel 24
Statue of Liberty 28
Stonehenge 41
Forbidden Palace 29
Great Library 4
Hagia Sophia 21
Oracle 5
Porcelain Tower 18
Pyramids 27

I don't think that GL is that much worse than Oracle, I find a free policy more welcome more often than a free tech for my play style.

Voting for the Castle til the patch.

 

[civnoob13]

Starting from now, you take away three rather than two points.

 

[mrlovanhey]

Big Ben 29
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 30
Himeji Castle 34
Pentagon 24
Sistine Chapel 24
Statue of Liberty 28
Stonehenge 41
Forbidden Palace 26
Great Library 4
Hagia Sophia 21
Oracle 5
Porcelain Tower 18
Pyramids 28

Alright, I'll take 3 from Forbidden Palace because it offers very little happiness for its cost and give one to Pyramids for being the wonder with the best gameplay boost (convenience)

 

[Furycrab]

Big Ben 29
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 30
Himeji Castle 31 (-3) Annoying to deal with enemies who have it
Pentagon 24
Sistine Chapel 24
Statue of Liberty 29 (+1) Always fun with freedom.
Stonehenge 41
Forbidden Palace 26
Great Library 4
Hagia Sophia 21
Oracle 5
Porcelain Tower 18
Pyramids 28

 

[civnoob13]

Big Ben 29
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 30
Himeji Castle 32+1
Pentagon 24
Sistine Chapel 24
Statue of Liberty 29
Stonehenge 41
Forbidden Palace 26
Great Library 1 -3
Hagia Sophia 21
Oracle 5
Porcelain Tower 18
Pyramids 28

The free tech for great library is dull. I very rarely feel the need for it and usually the tech is too cheap to even bother with. Disregarding the GS point, it's actually worse than a GS because you can use the GS whenever you want or instead use the GS for something whilst the GL only has one purpose that has to be well timed.
Himeji castle is very useful for defence. Combined with great wall (I only realised how useful it was after it had gone) and it's just fantastic.

 

[NicTeos]

Big Ben 29
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 30
Himeji Castle 29
Pentagon 24
Sistine Chapel 24
Statue of Liberty 29
Stonehenge 41
Forbidden Palace 27
Great Library 1
Hagia Sophia 21
Oracle 5
Porcelain Tower 18
Pyramids 28

FP - Scaling Happiness Wonder
Castle - Defense ? Attack is the best defense

 

[Randall Turner]

Big Ben 29
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 31
Himeji Castle 29
Pentagon 24
Sistine Chapel 24
Statue of Liberty 29
Stonehenge 41
Forbidden Palace 27
Great Library 1
Hagia Sophia 21
Oracle 5
Porcelain Tower 15
Pyramids 28

Same vote as last time. <shrug> Gonna take this fleeting pre-patch opportunity to try to kill the Porcelain Tower partly because it'll be the last time anyone downchecks it for anything.

 

[Tabarnak]

Big Ben 29
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 28
Himeji Castle 29
Pentagon 24
Sistine Chapel 24
Statue of Liberty 29
Stonehenge 41
Forbidden Palace 27
Great Library 1
Hagia Sophia 22
Oracle 5
Porcelain Tower 15
Pyramids 28

If only Cristo can be built sooner...HG is nice to get some extra GPs.

 

[doctorfork]

Big Ben 29
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 28
Himeji Castle 29
Pentagon 24
Sistine Chapel 24
Statue of Liberty 29
Stonehenge 41
Forbidden Palace 27
Great Library 0 GONE!
Hagia Sophia 22
Oracle 5
Porcelain Tower 15
Pyramids 29


Down goes the Library. It's already been discussed ad nauseum-so now that's move on to what's next.

The Pyramids seemed to have gotten a lot of love initially, but then people seemed to forget about it. Pre-patch it is still the best-the only wonder even close in terms of long term usefulness is Stonehenge.

 

[Bezurn]

Big Ben 29
Chichen Itza 29
Cristo Redentor 28
Himeji Castle 29
Pentagon 24
Sistine Chapel 24
Statue of Liberty 29
Stonehenge 41
Forbidden Palace 27
Hagia Sophia 22
Oracle 2
Porcelain Tower 15
Pyramids 29

While I like the Oracle in most games, the fact that you can't capture it to gain the effect means either you go for it quickly or it has no impact on you empire.

Himeji allows defenders that would otherwise die to counter attacks limp away with a few HP, saving you a well promoted unit and quite a few hammers depending on how many civs invade you.

 

[NicTeos]

pyramids are nice , but halve of the wonders have already gone and compared to the best wonders it becoms time to decide which wonders are better than average-good. I don't see pyramids at top 5.

 

[Hasire]

Big Ben 29
Chichen Itza 29
Cristo Redentor 28
Himeji Castle 29
Pentagon 24
Sistine Chapel 24
Statue of Liberty 29
Stonehenge 42
Forbidden Palace 27
Hagia Sophia 22
Oracle 2
Porcelain Tower 15
Pyramids 26
Pyramids aren't worth it, unlike stonehenge, which is essential.