Wonder Elimination Thread

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by civnoob13, Jun 11, 2011.

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  1. elprofesor

    elprofesor Pluri-editing poster

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    Angkor Wat 18
    Big Ben 24
    Chichen Itza 30
    Cristo Redentor 19
    Eiffel Tower 16
    Himeji Castle 29
    Machu Picchu 13
    Notre Dame 13
    Pentagon 23
    Sistine Chapel 21
    Statue of Liberty 25
    Stonehenge 34
    Taj Mahal 16
    Forbidden Palace 17
    Great Library 19
    Great Lighthouse 11
    Hagia Sophia 22
    Hanging Gardens 7
    Kremlin 11
    Louvre 14
    Oracle 22
    Porcelain Tower 21
    Pyramids 29

    I feel great artists are not reaaaaally useful if not going cultural. And I don't like them for golden ages either, because every spent GP gives you less and less GA time, and I'm already generating tons of Great Merchants from my puppet empire, so why bother, really.


    It seems I'm the only one that believes the FP is good (check my 2 previous votes for the detailed reasons). What surprises me the most is that people that are downvoting it are doing it because it doesn't help with small empires. Well, duh. Pentagon doesn't help if you are not a warmonger, Angkor Wat doesn't help if you are growing large. That doesn't mean they aren't good wonders, that means you aren't using them correctly (or you just happened to conquer the city that built it, or had a spare great engineer and didn't know what to use it for).

    So I'm okay with people that don't like FP because they think that its benefits are too low for a wide empire (say 12+ cities), and that there are easier ways to get happiness, even if I do believe that for REALLY large empires it's a must, and it's not always easy to go and get the city that built it, depending on the map and the civ (say, a chinese city in the middle of another continent, for example). But downvoting it because it sucks for a tall empire (which, let's be clear, it does) seems like missing the point of the wonder.
     
  2. Bezurn

    Bezurn Prince

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    Angkor Wat 18
    Big Ben 24
    Chichen Itza 30
    Cristo Redentor 19
    Eiffel Tower 16
    Himeji Castle 30
    Machu Picchu 13
    Notre Dame 13
    Pentagon 23
    Sistine Chapel 21
    Statue of Liberty 25
    Stonehenge 34
    Taj Mahal 16
    Forbidden Palace 17
    Great Library 19
    Great Lighthouse 11
    Hagia Sophia 22
    Hanging Gardens 7
    Kremlin 9
    Louvre 14
    Oracle 22
    Porcelain Tower 21
    Pyramids 29

    Upvote for Hemji Castle again - combined with the order policy gives you 50% stronger troops to defend against carpets at higher levels.

    Downvote Kremlin - Though useful for a cultural victory it is pretty weak otherwise.
     
  3. NicTeos

    NicTeos Warlord

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    kremlin = culture ? I don't see that. +4 Culture are meh at that time and +50% more effective defense building doesn't help the culture ? wrong wonder ?
     
  4. The A.K.T

    The A.K.T Warlord

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    Angkor Wat 18
    Big Ben 24
    Chichen Itza 28
    Cristo Redentor 19
    Eiffel Tower 16
    Himeji Castle 30
    Machu Picchu 13
    Notre Dame 13
    Pentagon 23
    Sistine Chapel 21
    Statue of Liberty 25
    Stonehenge 34
    Taj Mahal 16
    Forbidden Palace 17
    Great Library 19
    Great Lighthouse 11
    Hagia Sophia 22
    Hanging Gardens 8
    Kremlin 9
    Louvre 14
    Oracle 22
    Porcelain Tower 21
    Pyramids 29

    Moderator Action: Warned for spam. Please provide reasoning for your vote.
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  5. Mods

    Mods Warlord

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    Angkor Wat 18
    Big Ben 24
    Chichen Itza 28
    Cristo Redentor 20 +1
    Eiffel Tower 16
    Himeji Castle 30
    Machu Picchu 13
    Notre Dame 13
    Pentagon 23
    Sistine Chapel 21
    Statue of Liberty 25
    Stonehenge 34
    Taj Mahal 16
    Forbidden Palace 17
    Great Library 19
    Great Lighthouse 9 -2
    Hagia Sophia 22
    Hanging Gardens 8
    Kremlin 9
    Louvre 14
    Oracle 22
    Porcelain Tower 21
    Pyramids 29

    Cristo redentor got me to communism in my last game even though I had over 20 controlled cities (Around turn 1000 - marathon speed, 1940's)
    Voted great lighthouse down because those 2 movement points aren't gonna do much
     
  6. TimeWeaver

    TimeWeaver Warlord

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    Angkor Wat 18
    Big Ben 24
    Chichen Itza 28
    Cristo Redentor 20
    Eiffel Tower 16
    Himeji Castle 30
    Machu Picchu 13
    Notre Dame 13
    Pentagon 23
    Sistine Chapel 21
    Statue of Liberty 25
    Stonehenge 35
    Taj Mahal 16
    Forbidden Palace 17
    Great Library 19
    Great Lighthouse 7
    Hagia Sophia 22
    Hanging Gardens 8
    Kremlin 9
    Louvre 14
    Oracle 22
    Porcelain Tower 21
    Pyramids 29

    Once again I will vote Stonehenge up, those early cultural points are nice to have for any victory condition in mind.
    This time I will vote down the great lighthouse. It may make a difference for Elizabeth, but it is hardly worth the hammers for other civs.
     
  7. Sparthage

    Sparthage Fighting Tyranny

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    Angkor Wat 18
    Big Ben 24
    Chichen Itza 28
    Cristo Redentor 20
    Eiffel Tower 16
    Himeji Castle 30
    Machu Picchu 13
    Notre Dame 11
    Pentagon 23
    Sistine Chapel 21
    Statue of Liberty 25
    Stonehenge 35
    Taj Mahal 16
    Forbidden Palace 17
    Great Library 19
    Great Lighthouse 7
    Hagia Sophia 22
    Hanging Gardens 8
    Kremlin 9
    Louvre 14
    Oracle 22
    Porcelain Tower 21
    Pyramids 30

    Pyramids: Just had a game where I built this and I loved it. Very easy to build quick improvements to grab those resources just turns after they were unlocked.
    Notre Dame: Same reason as last time, but here: I find that I don't often have too much to worry about in terms of happiness. So for me, this doesn't do much besides helping with the minimal culture and GP points.
     
  8. Man vs Civ AI

    Man vs Civ AI Chieftain

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    Angkor Wat 18
    Big Ben 24
    Chichen Itza 28
    Cristo Redentor 20
    Eiffel Tower 16
    Himeji Castle 30
    Machu Picchu 13
    Notre Dame 11
    Pentagon 23
    Sistine Chapel 21
    Statue of Liberty 25
    Stonehenge 35
    Taj Mahal 16
    Forbidden Palace 17
    Great Library 19
    Great Lighthouse 5
    Hagia Sophia 22
    Hanging Gardens 8
    Kremlin 9
    Louvre 14
    Oracle 22
    Porcelain Tower 21
    Pyramids 31

    Without the Pyramids, worker production is way too slow for me.
    I just don't see a great benefit for the Great Lighthouse unless you depend on a navy.
     
  9. bcaiko

    bcaiko Emperor

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    Location:
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    Angkor Wat 18
    Big Ben 24
    Chichen Itza 28
    Cristo Redentor 20
    Eiffel Tower 16
    Himeji Castle 30
    Machu Picchu 13
    Notre Dame 11
    Pentagon 23
    Sistine Chapel 21
    Statue of Liberty 25
    Stonehenge 35
    Taj Mahal 16
    Forbidden Palace 17
    Great Library 19
    Great Lighthouse 3 (-2)
    Hagia Sophia 22
    Hanging Gardens 8
    Kremlin 9
    Louvre 14
    Oracle 22
    Porcelain Tower 21
    Pyramids 32 (+1)

    Man vs Civ AI put it very well:
     
  10. civnoob13

    civnoob13 King

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    This is going to take waaaay longer than I thought :p

    Angkor Wat 18
    Big Ben 24
    Chichen Itza 28
    Cristo Redentor 20
    Eiffel Tower 16
    Himeji Castle 30
    Machu Picchu 13
    Notre Dame 9
    Pentagon 23
    Sistine Chapel 21
    Statue of Liberty 25
    Stonehenge 35
    Taj Mahal 17
    Forbidden Palace 17
    Great Library 19
    Great Lighthouse 3
    Hagia Sophia 22
    Hanging Gardens 8
    Kremlin 9
    Louvre 14
    Oracle 22
    Porcelain Tower 21
    Pyramids 32

    The Notre Dame's happiness bonus is completely pathetic. The Taj Mahal gives you a free golden age, which is always great. It can do wonders for your military by allowing you to buy a few very vital units and it is always great when you can time it with production of other wonders.
     
  11. civnoob13

    civnoob13 King

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    Should I change the scoring system so you now reduce by 3 instead of 2? (you still only increase by 1)
     
  12. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak Cut your lousy hairs!

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    No. :)

    Angkor Wat 18
    Big Ben 24
    Chichen Itza 28
    Cristo Redentor 20
    Eiffel Tower 16
    Himeji Castle 30
    Machu Picchu 13
    Notre Dame 9
    Pentagon 23
    Sistine Chapel 21
    Statue of Liberty 25
    Stonehenge 35
    Taj Mahal 15
    Forbidden Palace 17
    Great Library 19
    Great Lighthouse 3
    Hagia Sophia 22
    Hanging Gardens 8
    Kremlin 9
    Louvre 15
    Oracle 22
    Porcelain Tower 21
    Pyramids 32

    Louvre can provides a longer GA(2xGP burn), you can use it when you want, and this wonder can help to a cultural victory. The Taj Mahal only provides a less longer GA than the Louvre. More easier to pop a GE for the Louvre after economics.
     
  13. NicTeos

    NicTeos Warlord

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    The GA duration trough GP reduces each time. And if you take the shortest time by GP, then Taj Mahal is better.
     
  14. fmlizard2

    fmlizard2 Prince

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    Angkor Wat 18
    Big Ben 24
    Chichen Itza 28
    Cristo Redentor 20
    Eiffel Tower 16
    Himeji Castle 30
    Machu Picchu 13
    Notre Dame 9
    Pentagon 23
    Sistine Chapel 21
    Statue of Liberty 25
    Stonehenge 35
    Taj Mahal 15
    Forbidden Palace 17
    Great Library 19
    Great Lighthouse 3
    Hagia Sophia 22
    Hanging Gardens 8
    Kremlin 7
    Louvre 16
    Oracle 22
    Porcelain Tower 21
    Pyramids 32

    I will bump up the Louvre as well. A key 22 turn golden age (with Chichen Itza) or nice base cultural bump through settling Great Artists is a big help mid game. Combine with a happiness/policy golden age and Taj Mahal around the same time, and you can really get the wind at your back for the rest of the game. Nothing warms the civ heart like GOLDEN AGE (52) across the top of your screen :)

    I will nudge down the Kremlin. +4 culture is minor and if you are fighting enough defensive wars near your own cities to make it worthwhile, then you probably have already lost.
     
  15. urbancamper

    urbancamper Chieftain

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    Angkor Wat 18
    Big Ben 24
    Chichen Itza 28
    Cristo Redentor 21
    Eiffel Tower 14
    Himeji Castle 30
    Machu Picchu 13
    Notre Dame 9
    Pentagon 23
    Sistine Chapel 21
    Statue of Liberty 25
    Stonehenge 35
    Taj Mahal 15
    Forbidden Palace 17
    Great Library 19
    Great Lighthouse 3
    Hagia Sophia 22
    Hanging Gardens 8
    Kremlin 7
    Louvre 16
    Oracle 22
    Porcelain Tower 21
    Pyramids 32

    Again, the 8 happiness from an Industrial Age wonder is pretty silly. For those downvoting Kremlin over some others, that +4 culture actually is pretty useful in a OCC cultural victory game, since it gets multiplied up a lot. So it is worth building in at least one type of game, whereas wonders like Hanging Gardens, Notre Dame and Eiffel Tower are rarely worth it in any kind of victory. Also, Kremlin creates Great Scientist points, unlike ND and Eiffel Tower which make worthless Merchants.

    On the other end, Cristo needs some loving, what with it being essential for a cultural victory and very nice (if a little hard to build on higher difficulties) in any other victory. It coming around at around the same time as Eiffel makes it even dumber to go for Eiffel.
     
  16. oledavy

    oledavy Chieftain

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    Angkor Wat 18
    Big Ben 24
    Chichen Itza 28
    Cristo Redentor 21
    Eiffel Tower 14
    Himeji Castle 30
    Machu Picchu 13
    Notre Dame 9
    Pentagon 23
    Sistine Chapel 21
    Statue of Liberty 25
    Stonehenge 35
    Taj Mahal 15
    Forbidden Palace 17
    Great Library 19
    Great Lighthouse 1
    Hagia Sophia 22
    Hanging Gardens 9
    Kremlin 7
    Louvre 16
    Oracle 22
    Porcelain Tower 21
    Pyramids 32

    Save the Gardens! Extra pop and happiness is awesome :)

    Let's kill the Great Lighthouse :cool: too situational and underpowered compared to other concurrently available wonders.
     
  17. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak Cut your lousy hairs!

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    If you burn many GPs in the beginning when the Louvre doesn't give you a bigger GA than Taj then you are doing something wrong. First GPs can serve well better than a GA at least before the Ind era, excepted some very specific situations where you can win before Archeology tech.
     
  18. Randall Turner

    Randall Turner King

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    Nonono, I like it! Bumping, probably won't keep it alive. But if you're going to get into a naval war with late units that aren't DD's, it's global benefit is, well, beneficial. :)

    Nerfing the Eiffel Tower again, same reasons - weak, late wonder, just gives happiness.


    Angkor Wat 18
    Big Ben 24
    Chichen Itza 28
    Cristo Redentor 21
    Eiffel Tower 12
    Himeji Castle 30
    Machu Picchu 13
    Notre Dame 9
    Pentagon 23
    Sistine Chapel 21
    Statue of Liberty 25
    Stonehenge 35
    Taj Mahal 15
    Forbidden Palace 17
    Great Library 19
    Great Lighthouse 2
    Hagia Sophia 22
    Hanging Gardens 9
    Kremlin 7
    Louvre 16
    Oracle 22
    Porcelain Tower 21
    Pyramids 32

    Edit: actually adjust the values, ira spaz.
     
  19. Kevin J

    Kevin J Hewer of Wood

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    What else would you use the ever-abundant Great Generals for?
     
  20. Notadolfhitler

    Notadolfhitler Chieftain

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    Angkor Wat 18
    Big Ben 24
    Chichen Itza 28
    Cristo Redentor 22
    Eiffel Tower 12
    Himeji Castle 30
    Machu Picchu 13
    Notre Dame 9
    Pentagon 23
    Sistine Chapel 21
    Statue of Liberty 25
    Stonehenge 35
    Taj Mahal 15
    Forbidden Palace 17
    Great Library 19
    Great Lighthouse 2
    Hagia Sophia 22
    Hanging Gardens 7
    Kremlin 7
    Louvre 16
    Oracle 22
    Porcelain Tower 21
    Pyramids 32

    I took from hanging gardens because a. the AI takes and bee-lines towards it and b. When you do build it (which would have to be early) you would only get 3 population (depending on the amount of cities) because the likelihood of you having a large empire by mathematics is LOWWW

    Cristo Redentor drastically helps with a cultural victory in late game.
     
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