Wonder Elimination Thread

[Randall Turner]

Notre Dame comes roughly at the same time as FP, and if aggressive, it doesn't give more happiness than the FP, and doesn't scale either. It would be a completely different pair of shoes if extra happiness gave a sizeable advantage; I can't really measure extra happiness in terms of GA bits, so I prefer more direct, clear benefits (the same applies when you consider AIs that will always buy luxury resources, even if they don't get a real benefit from it). As I see it, global happiness is still an experiment, thus some of the incoherences.

Hey, I forgot to get back to you, professor -

I took Berlin (and the Forbidden Palace) in that game I was talking to you about. It didn't give me the 12 you expected, and it didn't give me the 8 I expected - it gave me 10. (Moderate-large 22 city setup.) I don't know exactly how it was calculated, but I tested gifting the city to someone else, it's definitely 10 for me - which makes it better than I thought, but not as good as you thought? Some undocumented interaction with other wonders and/or my "planned economy" sp.

Definitely better than the pure "happiness" wonders for moderately large setups.

 

[elprofesor]

Oh, I don't think that Machu Picchu is a bad wonder, I just say it suffers from its kinda difficult conditions. I usually am busy enough up to the Renaissance, with all the warring, and sometimes settling, that I forget about MP. If once I establish myself, MP is still there, then I'll make a priority out of it, but I won't mind if it's gone (and I would mind even less if there wasn't a bug that makes it disappear when you capture its city). And it doesn't scale as "well" as the Forbidden Palace.
Other than that, if you happen to be one of the "Runaway civs", it can easily get you ~60gpt, which is nice.
-----
Now that's weird, Randall... whenever I can, I'll launch a game to test the civilopedia article, to try to clarify this. But 22 cities means it should "give" you 11 happiness (25% less unhappiness from number of cities). Maybe the capital doesn't count, and that would give you the answer (which makes it 0.5 happiness worse than I thought). Hummm...
Did you consider the unhapiness caused by the city holding the FP when counting the difference between with and without the city?
And thanks for answering

 

[civnoob13]

These patch notes have really messed up this thread

 

[elprofesor]

Well, if the elimination ends before the patch arrives, then we will have a "pure" (although outdated) elimination thread. There's still ~2 weeks left before the patch arrives, so we'll see.
·Hanging Gardens and Notre Dame get a serious buff, for example.
·Some will argue that the Pyramids and especially the Big Beng get nerfed, etc.
Civnoob, you started the thread, so it's your call whether we keep going, or wait till the patch is released (you know, the great power -> great responsibility deal).

 

[Randall Turner]

Did you consider the unhapiness caused by the city holding the FP when counting the difference between with and without the city?
And thanks for answering

Yep, I bought another city. Edit: to replace Berlin when I gave it away. (I'm rich!) As controlled as I can make it. And I think it might be the capital, or the Monarchy SP, or something like that. <shrug>

re: patch -I like the thread as it is, I'm learning stuff.

 

[elprofesor]

Yep, I bought another city. Edit: to replace Berlin when I gave it away. (I'm rich!) As controlled as I can make it. And I think it might be the capital, or the Monarchy SP, or something like that. <shrug>

re: patch -I like the thread as it is, I'm learning stuff.

It seems like you have considered everything. The missing happiness must come from the capital. I don't see any other explanation (the patch notes confirmed that the unhappiness per city is two as of now). With 22 cities, FP and Planned Economy, your unhapiness per number of cities should be 11, unless the meritocracy SP gets factored in, but IIRC, there is a different entry in the hapiness list that reads "happiness per trade routes", or something like that, so it shouldn't.

Anyway, I think I can conclude that FP gives "roughly" 0.5 happiness per city (0.75 post-patch, but that's another subject). So it evens with its contemporary ND at 10 cities (14 post-patch), and scales up from there. If you want to settle your whole continent (and it's fun to have a large portion of the minimap in your own colours ), it's simply a must (with theocracy, blah, blah, check my 1st and 2nd posts).

 

[Tabarnak]

Angkor Wat 17
Big Ben 26
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 23
Eiffel Tower 6
Himeji Castle 30
Machu Picchu 7
Notre Dame 1
Pentagon 23
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 27
Stonehenge 39
Taj Mahal 9
Forbidden Palace 17
Great Library 19
Hagia Sophia 23
Louvre 12
Oracle 20
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 30

HG for more scientists. Cultural CS can do a better job than Stonehenge. I never build Stonehenge. Even in sp mode. So much other things to do.

 

[NicTeos]

The most changes in the patch are good, let's see how the values fit together with the new patch, but I guess happy wonders will get more important. yeah, but where should I get all the new happiness with the new values ...

 

[M_Sparkle]

Pre and post patch seperate elimination threads be good to compare how peoples priorities have changed

 

[civnoob13]

Let's try to finish this before the patch

I will probably make a post patch one a few weeks/months after the patch, but I think having two threads that are exactly the same directly after each other is a little silly.

 

[Agent Cooper]

It seems that most players favorite wonders (judging from the votes) just got nerfed, some severly, the Porcelain Tower perhaps the only exception. But the PC's new ability is only created to make up for the massive nerf towards RAs.

A lot of changes to digest overall, that's for sure...

 

[NicTeos]

Angkor Wat 17
Big Ben 26
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 23
Eiffel Tower 6
Himeji Castle 30
Machu Picchu 7
Notre Dame 1
Pentagon 23
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 27
Stonehenge 39
Taj Mahal 9
Forbidden Palace 18
Great Library 19
Hagia Sophia 23
Louvre 10
Oracle 20
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 30

FP - scaling happiness wonder -very important on huge maps
Louvre - 2 Gart ,when GP-GA is already at minimum, weak tech.

 

[Bezurn]

Angkor Wat 17
Big Ben 26
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 23
Eiffel Tower 6
Himeji Castle 31
Machu Picchu 5
Notre Dame 1
Pentagon 23
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 27
Stonehenge 39
Taj Mahal 9
Forbidden Palace 18
Great Library 19
Hagia Sophia 23
Louvre 10
Oracle 20
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 30

Upvote: Hemeji Castle - Going by current stats still a great wonder. Might change tune after patch though.
Downvote: Machu Pichu - Great for very large empires, but can only be built by certain civilizations depending on the map layout. Situational and window to get it built sometimes very narrow.

 

[TimeWeaver]

Angkor Wat 17
Big Ben 26
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 23
Eiffel Tower 6
Himeji Castle 31
Machu Picchu 5
Notre Dame 0 OUT!! [but in next patch the best?]
Pentagon 23
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 27
Stonehenge 40
Taj Mahal 9
Forbidden Palace 18
Great Library 19
Hagia Sophia 23
Louvre 10
Oracle 20
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 30

My head's still reeling after the june/july-patchbomb, but I will of course vote as things stand now:
Upvote: yet again, stonehenge (it feels like a last farewell)
Downvote: Notre Dame, same reason as earlier

 

[Randall Turner]

re: patch -I like the thread as it is, I'm learning stuff.

Not sure about this after thinking on the patch notes overnight. Every time I look at the Porcelain Tower (which I already downgraded once) I'm thinking, "well, it's not so good now, but..."

Same deal as starting a new, big game now - what's the point?

 

[civnoob13]

I am going to honour stonehenge by upvoting it. Downvoting Piccu, too expensive, only good on large maps I don't ever go on, mountain requirement is a real pain.

Angkor Wat 17
Big Ben 26
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 23
Eiffel Tower 6
Himeji Castle 31
Machu Picchu 3
Pentagon 23
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 27
Stonehenge 41
Taj Mahal 9
Forbidden Palace 18
Great Library 19
Hagia Sophia 23
Louvre 10
Oracle 20
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 30

 

[doctorfork]

Angkor Wat 17
Big Ben 27
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 23
Eiffel Tower 6
Himeji Castle 31
Machu Picchu 3
Pentagon 23
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 27
Stonehenge 41
Taj Mahal 9
Forbidden Palace 18
Great Library 19
Hagia Sophia 23
Louvre 8
Oracle 20
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 30

Even tho I tend to play a lot of cultural games(or at least put a big focus on culture) I don't find the Louvre useful at it's point in the game, primarily because at around the time it becomes available, I always find myself catching up on essential city improvements.

For the exact same reason, I'm thinking Big Ben is where I'd spend an engineer if I have one at around this same time frame.

**edited since I missed the previous post**

 

[mrlovanhey]

Angkor Wat 17
Big Ben 27
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 23
Eiffel Tower 6
Himeji Castle 31
Machu Picchu 3
Pentagon 23
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 25
Stonehenge 41
Taj Mahal 9
Forbidden Palace 18
Great Library 19
Hagia Sophia 23
Louvre 8
Oracle 20
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 31

Pyramids up again for being my favorite wonder, as argued before.

This time I'll slash Libby for 2 points of damage, as my specialist count usually is very negligible and it therefore renders this wonder kinda useless. What is the big deal with this wonder anyway?

 

[NicTeos]

Statue of Liberty is awesome if you have many specialists and scales on huge maps even better, because there are more martime CS.

Together with Freedom and Civil Society it finally transforms 1 food into 1 production ( also for the same amount of unhappiness ) and makes the tile improvement more trivial ( no matter if farm, mine, lumber mill). And they still have another bonus as specialists. However with this 3 pieces, you still have a good return even with unemployed citizen. And higher populated cities boosts research and trade. If you should have gone for Rationalism and Secularism, you maybe only want to get as much food as possible.

It boosts the production enourmous and it makes terrain of the city even more negligible.

Also note, that the number of specialists normally grows rather fast at the end and that 1200 hammers ( base-costs) are returned quite fast, when you should have 60 specialists and 60 specialists is quite a low number on huge maps even at this time. If you have 300 specialists you maybe think different about this wonder.

It boosts production in not that productive cities.

---

Transforms Food better into Hammers. Always have enough food , always lack on hammers.

 

[Randall Turner]

Yep, I like the Pyramids okay, but I think the Statute of Liberty, overall, might be the best wonder - mostly because it multiplies. Along with what Nic said, it also stacks with the "+2 Science per Specialist" policy. (Secularism)

I'm going to go ahead and vote, I guess. I'll get it healthy and bump down the Eiffel Tower, though that's going to change - the developers also thought it was weak, it goes to "5 happy plus one per 2 policies", which adds up fast. It'd be worth 17 in my last culture-intensive domination game. (And other happy sources are nerfed.) As-is, though, not so much...

Angkor Wat 17
Big Ben 27
Chichen Itza 28
Cristo Redentor 23
Eiffel Tower 4
Himeji Castle 31
Machu Picchu 3
Pentagon 23
Sistine Chapel 23
Statue of Liberty 26
Stonehenge 41
Taj Mahal 9
Forbidden Palace 18
Great Library 19
Hagia Sophia 23
Louvre 8
Oracle 20
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 31

Edit: after the patch we'll have specialists also potentially producing gold. I'm not saying the Statue of Liberty is overall the "best" right now, it shines late-game in a large city, but it does come late. We'll cross that "who's really best" bridge when we come to it. But the global production gain from it is very significant.