Wonder Ideas for C2C

[n47]

How is the wonder density per turn at the moment (as one advances through the game)? Is anyone keeping an eye on this to avoid barren (or overly dense) parts of the tech tree?

Probably, the limit is Hydro's HDD space.

 

[SargontheGreat2]

Hey, fixed the palace:

Gobekli Finished

Other 2 up, I made them this morning, but my computer broke, fixed now

 

[Koshling]

Its hard to tell since many also require resources, relegions ,etc so they can clump up when you unlock those requirements.

But from the 6 buildings I proposed ...

Megalith Construction = 6 Wonders
Masonry = ~4 Wonders (Since many require Masonry but also require a later tech)
Canal Systems = 5 Wonders
Engineering = 2 to 4 Wonders (Also many cross tech requirements)
Feudalism = 3 Wonders
Industrialism = 1 Wonder

Note I did not count Culture Wonders or Corporation Wonders.

So is the design goal (ultimately) multiple Wonders per tech (so we'd end up with about as many wonders as regular buildings!) or a deliberate bunching of several per tech, but sparse key techs?

 

[Faustmouse]

I think somewhere in the future we need to go through all wonders and check
1) if they should be moved (to make a smoother density),
2) if they should be changed (While I love free buildings, I don't like so many "Free Building X" Wonders)
3) if they should be make normal buildings
4) if they should be removed.

 

[n47]

I think somewhere in the future we need to go through all wonders and check
1) if they should be moved (to make a smoother density),
2) if they should be changed (While I love free buildings, I don't like so many "Free Building X" Wonders)
3) if they should be make normal buildings
4) if they should be removed.

0) if they should be bounded to some culture -- I guess, it can solve the problem with the overflow, at least for now

 

[Hydromancerx]

Well I think above all else the Wonders should make sense on what they require. Not all techs make sense for wonders and of course some techs are magnets for wonders.

But this is also true for other features like some techs are heavy in units or civics or resources. But I think that's one of the great parts of C2C is that you have to pick which tech you should get and not all are equal. Which makes things less boring.

If they were all the same and balanced with like 1 unit, 5 buildings and 2 wonders that would be extremely boring. The fact that some give like a ton of buildings or wonders while other can have very few or even empty is great for a more dynamic and unexpected game.

 

[n47]

Well I think above all else the Wonders should make sense on what they require. Not all techs make sense for wonders and of course some techs are magnets for wonders.

But this is also true for other features like some techs are heavy in units or civics or resources. But I think that's one of the great parts of C2C is that you have to pick which tech you should get and not all are equal. Which makes things less boring.

If they were all the same and balanced with like 1 unit, 5 buildings and 2 wonders that would be extremely boring. The fact that some give like a ton of buildings or wonders while other can have very few or even empty is great for a more dynamic and unexpected game.

Big number of wonders and big number of units per tech are totally different. Wonders can boost your civilization. When you discover a tech with many wonders and build at once 3, it brings serious imbalance to the game. And you can you this imbalance to be the first to discover next techs with wonders and build them. Actually, this is probably the reason, why my games are boring, as I can always take it in my advantage and outrun all enemies over at least a half age.

 

[Hydromancerx]

That's why the wonder requirements are key. Just because you have discovered the tech of the wonder doesn't mean you can build it. Some require specific resources, buildings, religions or even civics.

Also I know not everyone plays this way but I do, if you do not turn on unlimited wonders then you just may not have enough slots to get a wonder. Especially if a wonder requires a certain city size and all your big cities are filled and your small cities have not grown large enough yet.

That's a HUGE balancing factor that more people should use when playing if they don't want wonders to become unbalanced.

EDIT: As for "boring games". Aside from say increasing the difficulty you could put your own limitations on yourself such as choosing not to build any wonders. I have tried it and have been happy with the results since it boosts the AI.

 

[Faustmouse]

That's why the wonder requirements are key. Just because you have discovered the tech of the wonder doesn't mean you can build it. Some require specific resources, buildings, religions or even civics.

Also I know not everyone plays this way but I do, if you do not turn on unlimited wonders then you just may not have enough slots to get a wonder. Especially if a wonder requires a certain city size and all your big cities are filled and your small cities have not grown large enough yet.

That's a HUGE balancing factor that more people should use when playing if they don't want wonders to become unbalanced.

EDIT: As for "boring games". Aside from say increasing the difficulty you could put your own limitations on yourself such as choosing not to build any wonders. I have tried it and have been happy with the results since it boosts the AI.

Hmm... what about making wonders build with , like settlers are build with food? Wonders are (in comperason with normal buildings) often very expensive.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I think would be a bit extreme, plus you would miss out on classic ways of building such as Slave building the Pyramids or out right buying the a wonder with gold.

We could always make them more expensive however I personally think the slot limits per city works the best. However not everyone uses it and thus complains its not balanced.

 

[Faustmouse]

I think would be a bit extreme, plus you would miss out on classic ways of building such as Slave building the Pyramids or out right buying the a wonder with gold.

We could always make them more expensive however I personally think the slot limits per city works the best. However not everyone uses it and thus complains its not balanced.

I don't like it because it seems artificial...
Could we make buildings cost a one time when they are build? This would be usefull for wonders and especially for space realted stuff.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I don't like it because it seems artificial...
Could we make buildings cost a one time when they are build? This would be usefull for wonders and especially for space realted stuff.

Even so Afforess (or was it Zappra) was smart in adding such a feature since stops the player from going overboard and getting all the wonders.

 

[n47]

We could always make them more expensive however I personally think the slot limits per city works the best. However not everyone uses it and thus complains its not balanced.

This would again bring me in a big disadvantage. I do not have time to manage too many cities, so I rather restrict myself in building them. So I would have much fewer number of slots then opponents. Together with much fewer number of cities, it would leave me rather small chances against them. -- Well, ok, maybe with the level of cleverness of CPUs it is not fatal, but the game would probably need a lot of my effort, which as I mentioned, I do not want to give.

Besides, you pointed out realism. So what kind of realism restricts the number of wonders in cities? Especially in the context of not limiting the number of buildings and sizes of cities.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@n47

I think there was a better explanation but this is all I could find ...

2. I can't build more Wonders in my city! What's going on?

Spoiler :

Maximum number of Great Wonders you can build in one city is set to 6 in this mod. This was added to the mod to make Wonders spread out more. You will have to be bit more careful when building Wonders. Holy cities can have 5 wonders: Holy Shrine + 4 regular Great Wonders. If you want to have unlimited world wonders per city, open up file '..\Rise of Mankind\Assets\XML\GlobalDefines.xml' and set the world wonder defines to -1 value.

My own answer of why I think it works is that if you are limited to how many you can make (note you can make more as your city grows) it gives you incentive to grow your city bigger and have more cities.

From a balance point of view it helps give the AI a chance to grab some. Or I should say gives players who are lagging behind to get some.

But from a non-game reason why I would say that making a lot of wonders would make the ones that are already there less special. For instance look at Vegas, it has a ton of landmarks, some of which are just copies of real landmarks.

Likewise city size is a big factor in what is built in a city. A city like New York or London or Paris are huge and as a result have lots of major landmarks. As they get bigger their land value raises and there is more demand for landmarks. Which is my out of game explanation why bigger cities can have more wonders.

Note if you know of an example of a city that has lots of famous landmarks but is not very populated I would genuinely like to know. Note I do not mean natural wonders, man made ones. Natural wonders are a whole other ballgame since their existence can be without even cities.

 

[Faustmouse]

I haven't checked, but don't we have a lot of Wonders located in Athens? And compared with todays standarts, ancient Athens was not very populated.

(Maybe I'm accidently putting some other greek wonders in athens )

 

[Hydromancerx]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athens

Athens (modern day)
Population: 4,013,368
Wonders
- Acropolis (Parthenon, Propylaia, Erechtheion, Athena Nike)
- Olympics (Ancient and Modern)

Note that a Size 61 city = 4,000,000 population

So I think it could build all those great wonders. As well as any National wonders Athens has.

However when the buildings were made would be in ancient times. According wikipedia in 5th century BC it was around 140,000. This put it at around a size 6 (1,000 pop) city. Note that a size 7 city is 1500 pop. Which I think can support 3 National Wonders and 2 Great Wonders.

So no it would not work out to get all of those in one city. Note in C2C we have Parthenon, Erechtheion and Olympics as wonders. I don't think we have Propylaia or Athena Nike yet. However if we just said Acropolis was one wonder and the Ancient Olympics were another then it seems it would work out.

 

[Faustmouse]

Hmm ok then. Maybe I should just give it a try in my next game. I tend to stick to options I tried once and liked, even if others might be better.

Your "no Wonders at all" handicap sounds very interesting, too!

 

[n47]

@Hydromancerx, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_monuments_in_Rome
I stopped counting on 50 and it was maybe 1/6. The highest estimations of ancient Rome city population I've heard were ~1, 250, 000 -- however I doubt it. Not taking in the account all roads and fragments of walls and some which could be destroyed before others appeared, I think, we can optimistically take, there were 75 at once. Will it match our current restrictions?

I do not consider all those landmarks to be world wonders. But if we will put every bigger castle or temple as a wonder, why shouldn't we do it with things from the list? In the ancient times, even those bridges were something.

And about this xml. Is this parameter still in use, if we have the max number of wonders growing together with cities?

 

[n47]

Your "no Wonders at all" handicap sounds very interesting, too!

But I like wonders building. ;-;

 

[Faustmouse]

But I like wonders building. ;-;

haha, so do I!
It's so intense that sometimes, when I missed a wonder, I really have to fight with myself not to go in the WB and cheat it to me