Work ethic is quite A BIT broken now....

[igorsrs]

So, Work Ethic now gives holy site adjacency as production.
Scripture stacks!
This map is not even a great one (Lakes, all standard) with a deer and Jade for the capital.
Turn 85 I got 13 cities, and 2 settlers moving, and 2 cities got a proper magnus tour.

 

[knighterrant81]

The question is, does it make up for having to build Holy Sites?

 

[Aurelesk]

Well:

• You need a Holy Site to enjoy the bonus, delaying other district (like Campus)
  • You need it early to kick off (→ Russia, Japan...)
• You need to pick a Faith adjacency Pantheon (which is situational, depending on map / setting / civilization) instead of something else (like the Settler one).
• You need to pick the Work Ethic belief, instead something else (like Choral Music)
  • If you spread your religion, other civilization can enjoy Work Ethic.
• You need to slot an adjacency Policy Card, instead of an other card (like Campus adjacency).
• You have to hope to secure the Pantheon and the Work Ethic at the same.
  • If someone beat you to found a religion, Work Ethic might be already gone, and the whole strategy is now unusable.

With this setup, the result is incredible. The whole strategy feels like a high risk but high reward setup. High risk because you either delay science, culture or economy in the process, making you vulnerable to conquest even barbarian, but the result allow you to catch up with additionnal Production.

How difficult was it to pull this off? Do you think you could do it consistently? Even in some high difficulty level? Do you think all civilization can do this, or only a few of them? Do you think this will be a gamechange, or just a new way to start the game?

 

[Victoria]

Adjacency Pantheons... plenty can abuse this to varying degrees. Making faith produce something else or vice versa causes a 'doubled up' in a way that bends the game a little too much for me but hey. I think I'm coming to the end of my VI tenure anyway.
Hidden mechanics that cannot be easily fathomed without days of mindless testing, GOTM's consistently abusable with rather strong exploits, playing with many rather frustrating things like trade routes palls my palate for more.
It's a game in the right direction being driven by the wrong fuel and is no longer reaching my destination.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Adjacency Pantheons... plenty can abuse this to varying degrees. Making faith produce something else or vice versa causes a 'doubled up' in a way that bends the game a little too much for me but hey. I think I'm coming to the end of my VI tenure anyway.
Hidden mechanics that cannot be easily fathomed without days of mindless testing, GOTM's consistently abusable with rather strong exploits, playing with many rather frustrating things like trade routes palls my palate for more.
It's a game in the right direction being driven by the wrong fuel is no longer reaching my destination.

Yeah But we have all this new content coming out in the next 10 months!!
Gonna be mind blowing (sarcasm)!

 

[The Civs 6]

...aside from the actual bug associated with it disappearing when your holy site is pillaged...

Combined with the right adjacency cards I have been able to get +10, +15, +20 hammer cities up easy as Russia with Lavras. At the very least Work Ethic should function like the old Feed the People, where +food is tied to the structure. It's the most broken (properly functioning) game mechanic in Civ 6 right now.

No shame on the designers, but they need to patch this one up quick.

 

[iammaxhailme]

I've got a +24 faith/production as Brazil in this game. It's nuts.

 

[acluewithout]

Is it actually broken though?

You have to play a very specific Civ suited to this play (eg Russia or Brazil); you have to use your Pantheon choice; you have to Found a Religion (admittedly not hard at least up to Immortal, and not hard with Peter); you have to use one of your beliefs; you now potentially have to spend Faith keeping your Religion; you’re having to research and slot Scripture; and you’re having to build a City in still pretty rubbish conditions (low growth for Tundra; can’t improve Jungle until Jungle-Mills for Jungle).

I guess where it potentially gets OP in some circumstances is that you’re getting two “building things” yields , ie faith and hammers; and you can get this stuff all very early. But so far, it doesn’t feel that much more punchy than the IZ changes (albeit you get online sooner) and the big numbers seem a bit limited to a few specific Civs.

There is a big issue with yield creep generally. But I’m not sure this is change is specifically the problem.

I also wonder if we might see the +% Production return to the game somewhere else. To me, it never felt a great fit with Religion.

 

[The Civs 6]

Is it actually broken though?

You have to play a very specific Civ suited to this play (eg Russia or Brazil); you have to use your Pantheon choice; you have to Found a Religion (admittedly not hard at least up to Immortal, and not hard with Peter); you have to use one of your beliefs; you now potentially have to spend Faith keeping your Religion; you’re having to research and slot Scripture; and you’re having to build a City is still pretty rubbish conditions (low growth for Tundra; can’t improve Jungle until Jungle-Mills).

I guess we’re it potentially gets OP in some circumstances is that you’re getting two “building things” yields , ie faith and hammers; and you can get this stuff all very early. But so far, it doesn’t feel that much more punchy than the IZ changes (albeit you get online sooner) and it the big numbers seem a bit limited to a few specific Civs.

There is a big issue with yield creep generally. But I’m not sure this is change is specifically the problem.

I also wonder if we might see the +% Production return ti the game somewhere else. To me, it never felt a great fit with Religion.

Before I made this thread I was thinking about this factor. You could also view this as an enormous buff for Peter. Rush Lavra, get the tundra bonus, get work ethic, spam Lavras, win? But I can still imagine any civ can get some +2, +3 holy sites and basically get an industrial zone + workshop out of it.

I like your point about yield creep. It just feels like there are some civs that poop out yield without any sort of explanation, like Korea, Greece and Australia.

 

[acluewithout]

...I can still imagine any civ can get some +2, +3 holy sites and basically get an industrial zone + workshop out of it.

That's really my point: IZ + Workshop really isn't that powerful, so something that usually just gives you a bonus at that level isn't a huge deal. @bengalryan9 made a good point in another thread too, which is that WE is a Follower Belief, so potentially multiple Civs will benefit from it.

I think others have said a similar thing elsewhere, which is that WE basically gives a few specific Civs a way to turn Holy Sites into an Industrial Zone, albeit one that unlocks a bit earlier. For those Civs, I don't think it's all that more powerful than Germany's Hansa, which itself is quite a good power level. You can also look at WE as being a bit similar to Harbour + Shipyard.

Overall, I'm pretty happy with the change.

My point about Yield Creep is not really about any Civs, almost all of which I think are pretty well balanced. Instead, I think the real explosion of Yields has been Disasters (I can't play Disaster 3 just because the yield buffs are so crazy), the many and varied buffs to Improvements and Natural Wonders, the massive buffing of Campus Adjacencies, plus the ongoing issue of Science and Cultural City State Bonuses (which were nerfed a little from Vanilla, but no where near enough). And you can add to that all the crazy gold you get from trading, even when you don't deliberately micro trades, plus the yield bonuses for Alliances.

None of these various buffs are inherently broken mechanically (except maybe City States), but all these yields, plus the fact there is so little gold maintenance, leads to the whole economy being a real mess. Frankly, I find it hard not to build Cities with absolutely belter yields. It's beyond nuts.

As I've said elsewhere, I also feel like the game has got very "flat". It feels increasingly like the map and strategy doesn't really matter, because there's always some very specific tool you can research or acquire to solve all your problems. You don't have to cleverly leverage different mechanics to, say, get your Science economy going. Instead, no mountains, just find a reef. Or get Cross Cultural Dialogue. Or get Pingala. etc etc.

Anyway. I've been more or less happy with the last few updates and NFP generally. Happy Religious Beliefs got buffed, and Religion again feels worth getting and or Founding. But hopefully upcoming DLC and updates will really tackle the more deeper problems with the game's general economy and mid-late game dynamics.

 

[knighterrant81]

That's really my point: IZ + Workshop really isn't that powerful, so something that usually just gives you a bonus at that level isn't a huge deal

Remember what time of game we are talking about. Pre-turn 50, +3 production is pretty big.

 

[The Civs 6]

Remember what time of game we are talking about. Pre-turn 50, +3 production is pretty big.

Yeah, and it's getting you faith, and it is a necessary step for a win condition. If you are doing a faith game you are getting all this stuff no matter what.

 

[Kwami]

Remember what time of game we are talking about. Pre-turn 50, +3 production is pretty big.

Especially when it's basically free production.

That said, I rarely get a game with a good +3 holy site in my capital. Work Ethic is really only kind of broken for the civs that can take advantage of the pantheons that get adjacency from terrain features, like Dance of the Aurora. It's good for Japan, too, but a bit later.

 

[Lord Lakely]

It is situationally overpowered. Work ethic is insane with Russia, Brazil and Australia but most other Civs will not receive the same mileage out of it. Any civ with an incentive to build aqueducts and dams will still prefer Industrial Zones.

If anything, more beliefs should be on the same level as Work Ethic in terms of power. Religion serves no direct victory purpose (nobody pursues Religious victory. Nobody) - its pursuit during the early game therefore should be rewarded, not punished.

 

[Tech Osen]

Busy with a Mali game. Got 4 desert cities (and room for more), 3 have +12 holy sites and one +14 with a natural wonder. Totally eliminating the production malus. This of course also made it very easy to build Petra in my capital. I tend towards overpowered. Keep in mind that both Russia and Mali can easily get first picks on pantheons and beliefs.

Any civ with an incentive to build aqueducts and dams will still prefer Industrial Zones.

Nothing stops Russia, Mali and Brazil from also building dams, aquaducts and IZ. And they will build them really fast with Work Ethic.

 

[Kmart_Elvis]

Playing a Russia game right now. It's a great source of production in the early game, but the biggest problem is running out of things to build. Since I'm in tundra, I'm growing really slowly and my cities don't have the pop to accommodate more districts. I have the production to build some units for defense though. Since I'm going peaceful diplomatic, I don't need a whole lot since I have what I need, I'm pretty safe geographically, and I still have to watch my gold maintenance. I did manage to build some wonders though! I'm finding it to be a welcome change, and I'm having an easier time than normal, but I don't think it's super OP or anything.

On the other hand, Pagodas are insane. I just passed turn 100 (standard speed) and I'm getting +13 diplo favor a turn (currently have like 8 or so pagodas). Next turn I get my T2 govt (monarchy), so most of my favor is coming from pagodas. I was able to secure a classical golden age. Used that time to grab Monumentality and settle like crazy. Every city has at least a +6 lavra (12 with the card), and work ethic helps. Use the excess faith to build Pagodas. Work Ethic also helped me build Mahabodhi. I really can't wait to see how this game turns out.

 

[kaspergm]

I can't wait to try it out with Mali, but I agree overall that when a belief is almost universally strong and sometimes game-changing, it's overpowered. The point with having a plethora of beliefs to choose from is that they should be situationally strong, not situationally game-changing. I.e. a belief should be such that when you meet the conditions for optimal benefit - be that the right civ or the right terrain - the belief should be strong, otherwise it should be weak.

 

[RealHuhn]

Nothing stops Russia, Mali and Brazil from also building dams, aquaducts and IZ. And they will build them really fast with Work Ethic.

Population stops them. You need 3 more pop in every city to build those IZs (or any other district). I'm not saying Work Ethic isn't overpowered with a handful of civs but spamming holy sites without going for a religious victory does have significant opportunity costs. You also have one less economic policy slot basically which can slow you down as well.

Edit: Probably best to spam Gurdwaras for that extra food/housing.

 

[Tech Osen]

Population stops them. You need 3 more pop in every city to build those IZs (or any other district)

Both dams and aquaducts add housing.

 

[Buktu]

Well:

• You need a Holy Site to enjoy the bonus, delaying other district (like Campus)
  • You need it early to kick off (→ Russia, Japan...)
• You need to pick a Faith adjacency Pantheon (which is situational, depending on map / setting / civilization) instead of something else (like the Settler one).
• You need to pick the Work Ethic belief, instead something else (like Choral Music)
  • If you spread your religion, other civilization can enjoy Work Ethic.
• You need to slot an adjacency Policy Card, instead of an other card (like Campus adjacency).
• You have to hope to secure the Pantheon and the Work Ethic at the same.
  • If someone beat you to found a religion, Work Ethic might be already gone, and the whole strategy is now unusable.

With this setup, the result is incredible. The whole strategy feels like a high risk but high reward setup. High risk because you either delay science, culture or economy in the process, making you vulnerable to conquest even barbarian, but the result allow you to catch up with additionnal Production.

How difficult was it to pull this off? Do you think you could do it consistently? Even in some high difficulty level? Do you think all civilization can do this, or only a few of them? Do you think this will be a gamechange, or just a new way to start the game?

You can add another point to that list: Once one Holy Site is pillaged it will lose the Work Ethic bonus for the rest of the game.

Apart from this I was able to pull this of on Deity with Russia pretty easily. The Faith on Tundra is nearly a guaranteed first pantheon and the lavra gets you 2 points for the prophet instead of one. And even if you fail to get Ethic Works you can make good use of all the faith nowadays. In my game I spammed Settlers in the following golden ages using it, bought several GPs and units with it. Also you can get Jesuit Education or Feed the World if Ethic Work is already taken.

That said it should be more difficult with other civs since they don't get the same bonus as Russia. Imo you can also try this with
- Mali who can buy buildings in Sugubas with faith and will likely have alot of dessert
- Brazil with rainforrests
- Japan, here you will get the bonus in the long run only since you need alot of districts to get the adjecencys online but you dont have to spend you pantheon for a faith adjecencys most of the time

For MP this looks quite strong on paper (not considering the bug) as well.