Workers of the world, unite! [RFC RAND]

[BurnEmDown]

9th turn (1250): China has completed the Kong Miao, Vikings adopted Confucianism. It seems our religion will dominate the world! Moskva finished barracks but will build a worker now, which we need fast to improve recently settled Jaroslavl.
Spy discovered Munchen to the west, worker with nothing to do nearby Kiev took a quick trip to a nearby hill and discovered copper, we definitely want to settle here before Germany does (though we can't get both the pigs and the wheat in one city as I originally thought):

10th turn (1260): Traded engineering and 40g from Khmer to our feudalism and theology, I don't know what to research next since it all takes so much time, next player will decide. Also got 30g from Mongolia for Monotheism, they are now pleased and will sign open borders.

Notes to the next player: After a few more military units from Kiev and Moskva, get a settler to the west. The 2 workers near Moscow should build a road to Jaroslavl from the northern side of the mountains, and then help with improvements.

 

[onedreamer]

@AP

I would have founded Kiev where I proposed in the early posts (in the blue circle the AI was suggesting, west of Moscow). I know players have different styles and that's the good of a succession game, but there are some key facts that should be discussed together, and the foundation of the first cities is certainly the number 1. I don't want to trigger useless polemics now but you pretty much ignored any of the suggestions and just did what you wanted and presented us with the deed once it was done. I'm just saying this for a possible future game, a bit more discussion on the matter wouldn't have hurt.

The location of Hattusas sucks, since I assume that we don't want our cities to overlap. Therefore we raze it, no point resisting the flip for a crappy city.

If in your opinion a port with Cows, Wheat, Gold and two other mines in the fat cross sucks in RAND you should completely revise your knowledge about RAND, assuming you have any. Perhaps you should be a bit more moderate in your judgements ?

To whom is St. Petersburg going to flip?? According to you: "In RFC, a city with sea access is worth at least 4 times more than a city without sea access.", so the location also worth 4 times more anyways. Founding cities within 4 tiles from your capital is not smart when playing as Russia. We are not planning to defend, hmm what was that phrase, attack is the best defence. We are discussing possible losses, as I recall so far we haven't lost anything...

We have lost 2 cities to barbarians even if we used low tricks worth nothing in a succession game to pretend we didn't. A succession game is normally a game played to excel or to accomplish particular deeds... it doesn't seem like we are aiming at this. Needless to say that conquering two barbarian cities to get the points awarded by Micbic only to lose them a few turns later isn't really excelling IMHO. And being a player among the others like you, I can express my opinion without you mocking them, especially if I'll be proven right...

oh wait... Novgorod, the city by the rice, is going to flip to Mongolia because it's more than 4 tiles apart from Moscow ?

Just as we fiered...

I think we are going to have to let it go. If we had pikes, I would challenge it, but longbowmen against Keshiks doesn't sound that good. Although we need to get our settler to the iron spot before Mongolians!

hmm, yeah... WE did.

You mean that you would have kept those crappy cities one tile a part?! And how would you have defended them against the barbarian hordes?

Maybe you should start to consider you have can learn from a succession game. I myself did learn something already (initial gift of few coins in the middle age for open borders). If you think you have nothing to learn, there's no point in playing a succession game.

Why should we conquer cities that the AI places poorly

They haven't been founded and you're expressing yet another strong judgement...

Attacking Turkey or Mongolia from their spawn must be the worst idea ever. Both spawn with reasonable armies and it would be really stupid to challenge them. Like wasting resources/hammers. We can gain much more land, easily, by founding cities after their spawn and attacking them later.

Who said attack them on spawn ? I have a large experience with refusing flips to Turkey in RAND btw, so I am quite confident it wouldn't be a big threat (if we actually had an army, anyway). Mongolia is another thing... better not to tease on their initial spawn.

Not to spoil the fun, but why don't we wait until the end of the weekend to restart the game with the new patch?

I'm sure everyone here wants to play the new patched versions the minute they are released.

We didn't have much progress the last couple of days anyway, thanks to a certain Yunovsk Whatitiskij...

Since we are so many players, we can easily handle two or three games simultaneously. So I propose to start another one once the patch is ready.

 

[onedreamer]

Spasibo Czar Burnemdunkovich.
I will play this evening and post tomorrow morning, as I don't have internet at home currently. So if you guys have suggestions/requests write them down before 18:00 CET. What to do with Argos ? What to do with Mongols ? Do we want a culture war or an all around war ? I say having a mongolian Novgorod is an outrage ! Once we get the iron connected we should immediatly declare, but we need pikemen (I can't check the current situation). Maybe we can resort to mercenaries ? I'm afraid we might not be ready to successfully wage a war vs mongolians now and later on it might be late because we lost quite some land.
If we chose culture war for now, we might switch to caste system for free artists and hammers from workshops (hammers being in our current quest).
We should also throw the grounds of a general strategy with Germany. I'm afraid we won't be friends forever.

I think I'll build a coupla more workers if we have 7, so we get 6 points. And will update you on the hammers situation.

2 More Quests, regarding Aliaksandar I's vision of Russia, and its recreation

Quest 1: Working man hold. Get workers up and running, deadline 1400 AD!
0-3 workers: 0 points
3-6 workers: 2 points
6-9 workers: 3 points
9-12 workers: 6 points
12 or more: 9 points

Quest 2: Production man hold. Make sure the accumulative production of your cities, by 1500 AD, adds as
0-20 hammers: 0 points
20-40 hammers: 3 points
40-70 hammers: 6 points
70-100 hammers: 9 points
100 or more: 15 points

 

[BurnEmDown]

I think right now we should work to improve Jaroslavl, capture Argos, and found another city between Argos and St. Petersburg. Once we get several pikes ready, we can take Novgorod back and raze Ulaan-Bataar to the south of Jaroslavl. The Mongolians shouldn't attack us too soon since they're pleased, however they're not at war with China which makes the current situation unpredictable.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Just be sure to capture the Kong Miao before the religious victory.
Actually, Novgorod would have flipped even if it was founded just 4 tiles away from Moscow (if you look at the turn when it flipped, 4 tiles is just where Mongolian culture cancelled ours, 1W of current Novgorod location). Personally I would have sent the settler westward, but the AI had already moved for us before we took over, so I took a chance in the east, which is my bad.
And we haven't even met the Turks yet, have we? Be sure to post the 1300 turn when cultures flip...

 

[onedreamer]

It seems I have been proven to know a bit more on how flips occur in RAND haven't I ? Can't you guys start to change attitude on the matter ? Novgorod wouldn't have flipped one tile closer to Moscow ( =4 tiles from Moscow) because Karakhorum would have been at 5 tiles from it. Even if it was at 4 tiles from it (equal distance) it wouldn't have flipped. In both cases the culture in the city would have been split 50% between Russian and Mongolian and we would have lost culture everywhere southeast and east but since I am pretty sure we are talking of few culture points, it wouldn't have been hard to regain those tiles culturally. Four tiles for the first round of cities for medieval civs is a good rule of thumb believe me. For ancient cities it's even lower: 3.

Back to goals:

- focus on Jaroslavl'
- take Argos (keep or raze ?)
- watch from the upcoming Turks... if they don't flip Hattusas should I be ready to take it ? And then keep or raze ?

I'm more worried about Germany than Turkey and Mongolia. I doubt they will become Confucianist, since they already have judaism in Artashat. They might even be jewish already. Maybe I might build and send a confucianist to Scandinavia to keep the Vikings as allies in case of future hostilities with Germany ?

 

[Danger Bird]

I estimate it will take 14~16 turns to have the Jaroslavl iron hooked up with the 3 workers we have on the job now (building road across rough terrain, chop/rushing library, road and mine iron). I think we should try to time things so that we have an army ready to attack Mongols then or soon after. So I would not recommend a culture war in Yaroslavl area; just the library (of course) to expand to BFC. Then take Novgorod back and raze Ulaan Baatar, as Burn said.

German/western strategy:
If we knew for sure that Argos area is outside Turkish flip zone*, then I would say use a settler to build 1N of Argos. Then build new city 1SW of copper (where worker is sitting now). Then prioritise culture in these new cities (lots of forests to chop, which will help), so that we can rely on General Winter for defence when Germany declares war.
(*Obviously, I am still worried about this, but maybe that's just because we have been unlucky once.)

Techs: I am very bad at knowing what to research next, but here is what i would do (for what it's worth):
Civil Service, Guilds, Gunpowder, trade for Lit, Music, Military Tradition for Cossacks.

Of course we've got our short-sighted RPC leaders' goals as well , but, at the moment, these fit well to long-term goals, because workers are needed and hammers are needed. Keeping up with tech will be a challenge, though.

 

[Danger Bird]

- watch from the upcoming Turks... if they don't flip Hattusas should I be ready to take it ? And then keep or raze ?

I guess we gave up on razing Hattusas before Turkish spawn. If it doesn't flip, we can use the army that returns successfully from Argos to take it (something to do between Argos war and war on Mongols).

 

[BurnEmDown]

I think we should keep Argos, we will probably only capture it after the Turks spawn anyway, so if it flips to them not too much harm done.
Germany is Christian, as I'm guessing is the rest of Europe (18% of the world is Christian to 20% Confucian).
For Germany, just act nice and build defenses along the borders, but focus militarily more on the south-east, Turkey and Mongolia scare me a lot more.

 

[Jusos2108]

If in your opinion a port with Cows, Wheat, Gold and two other mines in the fat cross sucks in RAND you should completely revise your knowledge about RAND, assuming you have any. Perhaps you should be a bit more moderate in your judgements ?

As I said, if we don't want our cities to overlap. Otherwise it is fine. You misunderstand me.

oh wait... Novgorod, the city by the rice, is going to flip to Mongolia because it's more than 4 tiles apart from Moscow ?

Novgorod would've flipped anyways, nothing to it.

Maybe you should start to consider you have can learn from a succession game. I myself did learn something already (initial gift of few coins in the middle age for open borders). If you think you have nothing to learn, there's no point in playing a succession game.

I am learning lots of interesting things, though I have also learned that some players should just play with themselves.

It seems I have been proven to know a bit more on how flips occur in RAND haven't I ? Can't you guys start to change attitude on the matter ?

Are you serious? Your initial response was the reason that I was a bit uncivilized, I thought you realized that. So maybe your attitude as the all-knowing-master-of-RAND needs to be revised? This is a succession game, everything will not go as planned, even if we did everything the way you wanted.

 

[Jusos2108]

To more pressing matters:

I would also keep Argos. Razing Hattusas would open some space for us to found a city (after the turkish spawn of course) on the coast that gets the clams and most of Hattusas' resources.

Also founding a city that gets the wheat and the copper SW of St. Petersburg (on the coast too???) is one of the priorities IMO. EDIT: It could be 1S or 1SE from the wheat, or even 1S of the copper to get the pigs. Guess it depends on what we find from there.

 

[BurnEmDown]

I forgot to mention that our spy discovered silk in Munchen's BFC, 2N of the spy's location in the picture in the first post on the page.
We could easily steal it by settling one tile away from it, the city will then be able to control the copper, and either the wheat or the pigs. The next player will have to decide if we want the pigs or the wheat.

 

[onedreamer]

In 10 turns I would barely be able to connect iron so I won't start a war against Mongolia. Novgorod's liberation will be some other Czar's deed.

On the western front I will deal with Argos and maybe founding another city if I have time. I think keeping Argos is better because otherwise we would need two settlers (correct ?)

I'll use the spy to explore, since at this point of the game stealing techs requires much more focus on religion and espionage than we can afford.

I think I will try to convert Vikings to Confucio if I have time.

Novgorod would've flipped anyways, nothing to it. I am learning lots of interesting things, though I have also learned that some players should just play with themselves.

Hopefully Burnemdown can provide you with a save so you can see for yourself that it would have not.
And indeed some players can't accept to confront with others it seems. Everyone promoting the foundation of cities 5 tiles away haven't said a word about the fact that we lost an important city and we could have avoided it. Wasn't it you to say that the risk was minimal settling near the rice ? Now we're not here to hold trials, but blatantly refusing to accept the truth is really sad. It doesn't take *that* much to admit a silly error, nothing bad about it... much worse is mocking me with emoticons and then not recognize the mistake after the Mongols' spawn.

Are you serious? Your initial response was the reason that I was a bit uncivilized, I thought you realized that. So maybe your attitude as the all-knowing-master-of-RAND needs to be revised? This is a succession game, everything will not go as planned, even if we did everything the way you wanted.

And how would you know since you did nothing as I wanted ?
I haven't claimed to be the all knowing master, I claimed to know more than you about spawning, and this after facts proved me right and someone refused to acknowledge it.

 

[Jusos2108]

Hopefully Burnemdown can provide you with a save so you can see for yourself that it would have not.

Let me get this straight, are seriously claiming that you would have founded Novgorod to some of the marked tiles??

About the other stuff, I just hope that we didn't completely ruin this succession game for you. Since you claim that AP (who is one of the best players I know) and I have played so extremely poorly; not to forget that Danger Bird (who I know is a good player too) didn't build enough infra nor workers. Everybody else seems to be enjoying it though.

 

[nody]

Let me get this straight, are seriously claiming that you would have founded Novgorod to some of the marked tiles??

I would.

I just hope that we didn't completely ruin this succession game for you.

Don't worry. I will repair the damage.

 

[BurnEmDown]

Guys, let's stop arguing. Mistakes were made, cities got flipped, but we're still in an ok-situation with a decent plan for the future.

onedreamer, I would keep Argos. You should explore Germany with the spy but not too far, since we'll have our great spy soon and we'll need to steal gunpowder and other techs from Turkey. Also I forgot to build a second spy for us so don't forget.

 

[Danger Bird]

Techs: I am very bad at knowing what to research next, but here is what i would do (for what it's worth):
Civil Service, Guilds, Gunpowder, trade for Lit, Music, Military Tradition for Cossacks.

... we'll have our great spy soon and we'll need to steal gunpowder and other techs from Turkey.

Oh, I forgot. We're going to be stealing some of this.

 

[nody]

Civil Service, Guilds, Gunpowder, trade for Lit, Music, Military Tradition for Cossacks.

For Cossacks, you also need Rifling. They're a Cavalry replacement, not a Cuirassier replacement.

 

[onedreamer]

Let me get this straight, are seriously claiming that you would have founded Novgorod to some of the marked tiles??

Either you continue to blatantly refuse truth or you can't count to 1. Why are you moving Novgorod two tiles ? 1 Tile would have been enough and it's what I said. 4 from Moscow and 5 from Kharakorum.

 

[Jusos2108]

Because that's the flip zone. Anyways actually I suggested that we should found a city 1NW from rice, which is 4 tiles from Moskva:

-But also there is a possible production powerhouse location 1NW from the rice, which should probably be settled pretty soon?
-I am already annoyed with that gap between Moskva and that soon to be ours barb city, but perhaps there is a decent city spot 1W of the not really visible lake, at least it gets the sheep

So in the end we were taking about the same tiles... I guess that I would have done something right even on your high standards.

Anyways as BurnEmDown wisely put it, I am done arguing.