World War II

[Knight-Dragon]

"The Sovs lost over 800,000 people at Stalingrad. The city was reduced to a rubble heap. It was also the grave site of the German Sixth Army..."

It was one of Hitler's stupid mistakes. He shld have allowed Paulus to retreat while they still could. Instead Hitler insisted that the 6th Army defended Stalingrad to the last man. He actually believed Goering's boast that the Luffwaffe could supply the army there by air. Hitler even made Paulus a Reichmarshal and gave him a marshal's baton cos no Reichmarshal of the Wehrmacht had ever surrendered on the field of battle. But to no avail, in the end, the 6th Army surrendered. The Germans lost 100k plus (?) good men there.

 

[Simon Darkshade]

Stalingrad also very important transport hub, being on convergence of the two main rivers, Don and Volga. Well over half of all Soviet trade and transport went thru Stalingrad. In addition, Hitler disliked the name. He was a big one for symbolism, Gefreiter Hitler of the 6th Bavarian Infantry. SS troops diverted and scaled mount Ebolus(something like that) to unveil the hakenkreuz (was it the Blutfahne itself? I cannot recall) on its peak to unleash mystic powers. Reichsfuhrer Himmler was very much into the occult.

As for the success or not of the Caucasus invasion, remember that the terrain gets very mountainous north of Baku and Grozny, and was almost impassable to the Germans, in addition to drawing out supply lines.

Stalingrad were a close thing in stages, if you take a tactical or operational view. Mansteins relief force got within 30 miles of Paulus, then had to pull back. But in strategic terms, the thrust on it extended the Germans significantly, and the Soviets had a lot of manpower to throw into the area under Zhukovs encircling force. The Soviets simply followed the simplest of all options and hit the German forces in the weak sections of the front manned by Romanians and other foreigners with overwhelming force. This time, a major encirclement on the Eastern Front actually had important strategic consequences...

 

[willemvanoranje]

I know of a man, who faught at Stalingrad (I believe he's dead now). He was a good friend of my grandparents, but what he had seen, and what he had been through at Stalingrad affected him his entire life. He still had nightmares and stuff. A mark of how devastating a war can be for the human mind.

 

[CurtSibling]

ADOLF'S CHECKLIST FOR SCREWING UP HIS WAR

1. Damned afwul racial attitude - check!
2. Not invading the UK - check!
3. Meddling in the conduct of the war - check!
4. Liquidating capable generals - check!
5. Not utilising sympathetic peoples - check!
6. Crappily timed invasion of USSR - check!
7. Half-hearted invasion of North Africa - check!
8. Ignoring the development of Jet tech in 1939 - check!
9. Not evolving airborne tactics - check!
10. Squandering of men and machines - check!
11. Not ending the war when things went crap in 43 - check!
12. Bad treatment of East Europe - czech!

I could go on and on, but ya get the picture!
Hitler, fall on yar own sword you are a Oxy-Moron!
In addition to destroying (for a while) a proud and fine nation,
He dragged the world into a crappy war and ruined upteen chances for victory in favour of narrow-eyed greed and petty rivalry,
Humans, eh?

Adolf, What a failure!
Go hang yer head in hades!

And you too Stalin...ya big spoon-head!

 

[CurtSibling]

Just or the record,

I will NOT be making any of these "little blunders" when
I play WW2 scenarios on CIV3!

So Beware you red armies at Kharkov!!!

Stukas are comin' for ya!

 

[Bretwalda]

I mostly agree with you, however the problem with the airborne divisions was not "not evolving tactics" but actually to sustain such losses in lesser important battles like Crete that they could not be used later effectively e.g. against the planned but never carried out Malta invasion.

Originally posted by CurtSibling
ADOLF'S CHECKLIST FOR SCREWING UP HIS WAR

1. Damned afwul racial attitude - check!
2. Not invading the UK - check!
3. Meddling in the conduct of the war - check!
4. Liquidating capable generals - check!
5. Not utilising sympathetic peoples - check!
6. Crappily timed invasion of USSR - check!
7. Half-hearted invasion of North Africa - check!
8. Ignoring the development of Jet tech in 1939 - check!
9. Not evolving airborne tactics - check!
10. Squandering of men and machines - check!
11. Not ending the war when things went crap in 43 - check!
12. Bad treatment of East Europe - czech!

This last one - was it on purpose? Whatever: East Europe was always treated badly no matter when in history - believe me I am Hungarian

I could go on and on, but ya get the picture!
Hitler, fall on yar own sword you are a Oxy-Moron!
In addition to destroying (for a while) a proud and fine nation,
He dragged the world into a crappy war and ruined upteen chances for victory in favour of narrow-eyed greed and petty rivalry,
Humans, eh?

Adolf, What a failure!
Go hang yer head in hades!

And you too Stalin...ya big spoon-head!

 

[joespaniel]

Check out the thread about 'Hitler and future generations'. Some good stuff there, too.

Heres a big what if:

What would have happened if Hitler waited 1 year to attack Russia, in the Spring of 1942?

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by Siggy


He didn't stop that. Prototype of the Me262 flew in late 1941 or early 1942. It didn't appear earlier because someone (Hitler himself?) ordered that that plane should be capable of carrying bombs. That extra period of development, testing etc. made the plane appear in summer/fall 1944 instead of spring/summer 1943. That would have made the difference.

How about the Panther tank? It was developed in 1942. Was a great weapon, wasn't it?

B-17 was developed as a strategic bomber. Germany didn't develop weapons like that ( well, it developed some futuristic airplane capable of strategic bombing) because it wasn't a priority. The airplanes germany used were developed to work together with the wehrmacht during the blitzkrieg as tactical support, not as strategic weapons. All those bombers Germany developed were in strict terms tactical bombers and were not meant to be used as strategic weapons.

And the last question: what were those better weapons you are talking about? Panther 2? Mauss? Which airplane, which tank?

Don't like to disagree, but the "Adolf wanted the schwalbe to be a Jabo" agrument is one of the big misconceptions of WW2.

Sure, the Austrian despot wanted the Me262 biult to be a bomber as well as a fighter, and this posed no problem to Messerschmitt GmBh, what actually held up the deadly jet's production was a chronic shortage of a reliable version of the Junkers Jumo Jet Engine!

So there ya are, taken from the luftwaffe Archive books I have read!!!

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by joespaniel
Check out the thread about 'Hitler and future generations'. Some good stuff there, too.

Heres a big what if:

What would have happened if Hitler waited 1 year to attack Russia, in the Spring of 1942?

Um, even more drunk Russians driving T-34s and Schturmoviks??!!

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by Bretwalda
I mostly agree with you, however the problem with the airborne divisions was not "not evolving tactics" but actually to sustain such losses in lesser important battles like Crete that they could not be used later effectively e.g. against the planned but never carried out Malta invasion.


This last one - was it on purpose? Whatever: East Europe was always treated badly no matter when in history - believe me I am Hungarian

Better airborne tactics means less losses, by default!
Hey not malice intended with the Czech thing!
I have 2 good friends from Hungary and Bulgaria, the finest individuals you could meet!

We Scots have always had bad treatment too and have always saluted East Europe!

 

[joespaniel]

Originally posted by CurtSibling


Um, even more drunk Russians driving T-34s and Schturmoviks??!!

Either that or we would all be speaking Deutch and eating snitzel.

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by joespaniel


Either that or we would all be speaking Deutch and eating snitzel.

Ja!

But think of all those gorgeous german girls!!!

 

[Simon Darkshade]

Just on the issue of the Luftwaffe not having a true strategic bomber, this is the case. However, there was the so called "Ural Bomber" under development prior to 1936 (called this becuae it was designed to have the range for the Urals and back), a pet project of the then head of the Luftwaffe, whose name escapes me momentarily. He died, however, in a plane crash in 1936, and was replaced by Kesselring, who concurred with Goering on the Luftwaffe mainly being a ground support force. They were not big affecianados of the Douhet/ Mitchell/ Trenchard school of strategic air power.

Max Wever was the blokes name, he says as he checks his airpower paper from military history

Whether the existence of this would have had a different effect on the course of Operation Eagle is a matter of debate.

 

[joespaniel]

The German failure to turn the Med into an "axis lake", was a huge missed opportunity. They should have took Malta, and smashed the British in Egypt as soon as humanly possible.

Hitler's Russian war build up was absorbing all the resources needed to deal the mortal blow to the English empire. German conquest of the Middle East would have crippled the UK, and given Hitler the oil he needed. Plus a road into the Southern USSR...

 

[willemvanoranje]

I couldn't agree with you more. Hitler had a serious problem is setting his priorities. He attacks England. Oh, oops. Failed. Well no matter, next one. Russia. Hmmm, not going very good. He should've finished England before attacking Russia.
It's well known that Hitler wasn't a great strategic mind.

 

[Bretwalda]

I think this is simplification: Hitler had brilliant ideas AND competely rubbish ones as well... Also most of his early political gambles paid off handsomly...

Originally posted by willemvanoranje
I couldn't agree with you more. Hitler had a serious problem is setting his priorities. He attacks England. Oh, oops. Failed. Well no matter, next one. Russia. Hmmm, not going very good. He should've finished England before attacking Russia.
It's well known that Hitler wasn't a great strategic mind.

 

[willemvanoranje]

Well, he didn't have the smartest advisors as well. He had some great generals, but most of them were afraid to open their mouth. And Ribbentrop is probably the most stupid politician ever.

 

[joespaniel]

I've always said Hitler was a piss poor military strategist. He took credit for sucesses planned and carried out by others like Manstein and Guderian. He ignored the lessons of WWI and started a two front war, also falsly predicting Russia would collaspe when Barbarossa began. One mistake after another. The Allies considered Hitler their best secret weapon!

He was a a two bit hood, and deserved to die and be burned in a ditch full of gasoline. Oh, wait...

 

[PinkyGen]

One of the reasons the what-if's with Hitler don't really hold is because this was a war started by Hiter. Without Hitler, WWII would have been radically different.

At 1941, Hitler looked like a military genius. He invaded Poland, Norway, and France, and every time he overruled his own generals. When Guderian and others were breaking out, the High command tried to reign them in. Hitler countermanded that order and let the Blitzkrieg go to the sea.

Thus, without Hitler, Germany would not have been in the USSR in 1941, with almost all of Europe behind him.

Also, keep in mind that most of our history (until 1991) about WWII came from German generals, who were trying to blame everything on Hitler. Hitler still made blunders, but the Wehrmacht deserves some blame as well.

PS. in 1942, the Soviets would have had their defensive belt in Poland built, and more T-34's, and more training. Not to mention Pearl Harbor, so the divisions facing the Japanese could have been brought up earlier too.

 

[Esca]

I have not read every post, but someone early on said the "Amerika" bomber did not fly.
Well, it did. Try this:-

http://users.visi.net/~djohnson/prototyp/me264.html

It could reach as far an Indiana with a payload of 11000lbs and a cruising speed of 398 mph.
There was another version with six engines and swept wings, looking like a B36.

It was called the ME264 if you want to do your own search.
There were plans to base some in the Phillipines to attack the American Eastern seaboard.

The flying prototypes were repeated damaged in air raids, which slowed down the production.