World Wide Wonder

[ifinnem]

Right off the bat I see we need to balance 2 objectives
1) settle so that we can maximize this seafood in the long run (ie share it with another city)
2) maximize short term to get going on the wonders

I think this means we can't SIP but will take a close look at the save before making a definite suggestion

WB on 3 hill def a no brainer

 

[ifinnem]

Can we confirm what MODs etc we are using? Same as Spybull game?

 

[Brian Shanahan]

First of all thanks cripp for having me, hope we get a good win out of this.
Second as I'm on GMT I may be posting a small bit out of sync (especially if your posting from the other end of the world), so don't be too suprised to see a whoule raft of ideas from me when you wake up.
Thirdly, I'm currently running the latest version of BUG mod, if I need anything else pelase inform me, but as you see below I can open the save.
Well I opened up the save and looking at what we can see right now the only place to get all seafood resources is SIP, 1N only gets Clam and Crab in BFC, 1NW gets the northern fish as well, 1SE gets 2 fish and the clam and crab, but loses the corn. SE has what looks like 1 grass hill and 3 grass forests in the fog. We appear to have a forested plains east of the corn for SIP (my monitor is acting up a bit, and the colours are a bit washed out).

So we should really post a move of the warrior before deciding.

On tech BW then Myst (IIRC) seems good for the moment.

 

[cripp7]

Hey cripp!
Need another one? Call me in in case you do!!

Sure, I think we have enough players now. Any more will have to lurk and be backups in case someone drops.

Right off the bat I see we need to balance 2 objectives
1) settle so that we can maximize this seafood in the long run (ie share it with another city)
2) maximize short term to get going on the wonders

I think this means we can't SIP but will take a close look at the save before making a definite suggestion

WB on 3 hill def a no brainer

I can move the warrior and post a screenshot.

Can we confirm what MODs etc we are using? Same as Spybull game?

Yes same as SpyBull game. BUG4.4(in customassets) and I use BULL1.2 also(dll replacement)

 

[Thy_Spellcraft]

As I'm in I too vote for moving the warrior before deciding to SIP or not. Best seems to move him onto the wheat title.

 

[cripp7]

moving the warrior 1NE

Spoiler :

stone close by, use it for next city. looking at that, I'd SIP then work 3 hammer hill for 2x wb

 

[Brian Shanahan]

SIP is good, we can worry about placing city 2 later.

On another note, will BULL affect BUFFY, for the SGOTM? I don't want to do another re-install. If it does I'll just do a parallel install.

 

[cripp7]

SIP is good, we can worry about placing city 2 later.

On another note, will BULL affect BUFFY, for the SGOTM? I don't want to do another re-install. If it does I'll just do a parallel install.

You just keep a backup copy of the original dll, rename the BULL dll when you want to run BUFFY

 

[Stochastic]

Right off the bat I see we need to balance 2 objectives
1) settle so that we can maximize this seafood in the long run (ie share it with another city)
2) maximize short term to get going on the wonders

I think this means we can't SIP but will take a close look at the save before making a definite suggestion

WB on 3 hill def a no brainer

Nice summary, I agree about wanting to share the seafood around (especially with the amount of brown land being revealed), but I can't see a way of doing it that won't end up leaving one of the ocean fish out of every possible BFC, something I'd rather not do. Which leaves SIP as the only remaining option. The wheat will definitely go to another city though.

moving the warrior 1NE

stone close by, use it for next city. looking at that, I'd SIP then work 3 hammer hill for 2x wb

I think it is more optimal to work the 3 for the first WB, then work the coastal fish to size 2 and put the second pop on the hill to finish off the WB. It will come out a bit later, but we will get to size 2 much sooner and get more commerce. After that probably build a worker to use BW and get a mine up.

I'm actually toying with the idea of getting 4 WBs out first in a mad rush to size 5 and then using the huge food surplus to whip a settler/worker every 15 turns while building wonders/warriors/buildings in the recovery periods. That would mean getting SH a bit latter, but I don't think it would be much later because of the overflow.

 

[cripp7]

Nice summary, I agree about wanting to share the seafood around (especially with the amount of brown land being revealed), but I can't see a way of doing it that won't end up leaving one of the ocean fish out of every possible BFC, something I'd rather not do. Which leaves SIP as the only remaining option. The wheat will definitely go to another city though.



I think it is more optimal to work the 3 for the first WB, then work the coastal fish to size 2 and put the second pop on the hill to finish off the WB. It will come out a bit later, but we will get to size 2 much sooner and get more commerce. After that probably build a worker to use BW and get a mine up.

I'm actually toying with the idea of getting 4 WBs out first in a mad rush to size 5 and then using the huge food surplus to whip a settler/worker every 15 turns while building wonders/warriors/buildings in the recovery periods. That would mean getting SH a bit latter, but I don't think it would be much later because of the overflow.

That's what I meant to say, work the fish until size 2 then work hill. It will be a great ing city. Let's see what the other have to say about it.

 

[Thy_Spellcraft]

Hmm.. hard decision as we want to get a lot of for a lot of wonders. You only discussed to whip the early once but how to get late-time wonders especially UN with nearly no production? At least that's what it seems to me.
In a normal game I too wouls SIP but in this scenario I'd rather settle one north for the higher potential and loose two fish within any BFC.
The only alternative seems to get as fast as possible to MC for forges (and an engeneer) and philo (for AWat and the priests) to get at least a acceptable amount of hammers out of this starting spot!

 

[Brian Shanahan]

You just keep a backup copy of the original dll, rename the BULL dll when you want to run BUFFY

Yeah it's the only conflict with BUFFY according to Assets Checker, so cut and paste 1 file every so often is not going to hurt.

I like the plan for building the workboats, worker after that presumably? Then pump out settlers and defenders, maybe.

Usually when I go workboat first it goes WB, Warrior, worker, warrior, settler. I hardly ever get 5 fishy resources.

 

[dalamb]

BTW, since I do more map-making than map-playing, I'm happy to focus on learning to make better maps. So I'm happy to take suggestions on what other edits I should have made to this map, once you explore a bit. Best to PM me at first, though, since I'll likely unsubscribe from this thread in a day or two (I automatically got subscribed when I posted, and I decided to hang around long enough to see initial comments).

 

[Stochastic]

Hmm.. hard decision as we want to get a lot of for a lot of wonders. You only discussed to whip the early once but how to get late-time wonders especially UN with nearly no production? At least that's what it seems to me.
In a normal game I too wouls SIP but in this scenario I'd rather settle one north for the higher potential and loose two fish within any BFC.
The only alternative seems to get as fast as possible to MC for forges (and an engeneer) and philo (for AWat and the priests) to get at least a acceptable amount of hammers out of this starting spot!

Good points about late game wonder production, but I would vote very strongly against leaving 2 fish out. All the plains to the north will be hard to feed without food and the fish could be 4 specialists in some very brown land or a lot of whipping. Remember the UN is basically the end game and the earlier turns are certainly the most important for the snowball effect.
Another wonder to keep in mind is the Kremlin for better rush-buy/whip, but we need a few rounds to get there

That's what I meant to say, work the fish until size 2 then work hill. It will be a great ing city. Let's see what the other have to say about it.

Sounds good!

I think getting out the two WBs will take roughly until BW, so maybe if we can get a consensus about SIP vs moving Cripp could take us to that point so we have a bit more info about the land around us and the neighbours we need to befriend/put to the sword.

 

[Thy_Spellcraft]

OK.. Let's SIP and cross fingers there will be another hill in the fog!
Techwise I too would go straight towards BW and afterwards towards Myst. But I won't try for SH cause on emperor I'm pretty sure it won't fall late enough for going BW first. From the early wonders I'd rather get Oracle (for MC) and Mids. Until Oracle could get started I'd at least two settlers and some workers.
And I too would start with WB. Depending on whether we want GLH we even may want to build a second one for early scouting. But for me WB --> warrior --> WB seems to be the right move!

 

[Stochastic]

Well I'm pretty sure looking at the edge of the fog that there are no hills, but I still think SIP is better.

I'd also usually prefer to skip stonehenge in favour of a mass settler spam, but I thought that part of the variant is to go hard for wonders. Maybe we should try to solidify exactly what that means? Like a minimum # of wonders built or have a minimum % of hammers invested in each one? It is a bit late to try to adjust, but I think it is probably better to do it now rather than get confused later. I'd propose a minimum number of wonders built in the capital, maybe 7 for the 7 wonders of the world? With at least one from each Era (except Future)?

As for the workboat construction order, I think going for 2 first before a warrior is safe. We might even be able to get a third WB out after first warrior before capping out the happiness, which would, I think, be better with so little for a worker to do. It would be a bit risky for barbs, but we should have enough warning to swap into another warrior if an archer is around our borders because of the early slavery. 1pop whipping a warrior wouldn't actually be that bad because we'd get quite a bit of overflow to put into either 'Henge or a Settler/Worker.

Basically I'm advocating a very strong econ build and having just barely enough military to hold off an early barb so that we can leap forward to start off. If everyone else wants to invest in military, than that is fine by me as that is also a valid strategy. Who knows, maybe Ghandi is right next door ready to "donate" some workers . Basically I think we need a bit more data before planning out the next 50-60 turns, including whether or not to go for Oracle and/or TGL (which I think could be a major boon for us given the very low commerce and poor land we can see right now).

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

Settle in place, what all this marlarkey about the plains tiles not being used, you DON'T have to put 2nd city 3 tiles away from capital, why not explore the other side of the stone and evaluate.

If we're supposed to get 4 resources in starting City BFC and Seafood ISN'T COUNTED as a starting resource, what else do we have??

Settle in place, it has 9 levy tiles, build Moai statues there, work the 2 Ocean fish, barbs can't reach them.

Rome starts with Mining/ fishing. Tech's....Hmm Bronze working, then masonry for the stone found.

2nd city, that should encompass 3 or 4 resources ideally. Noting in rules says it has to be near the capital.

 

[Thy_Spellcraft]

...build Moai statues there, work the 2 Ocean fish...

We have to build NE and Oxford in Rome as our variant rules define!

 

[ifinnem]

woah a lot to read before I way in. Edit to follow

EDIT:
I think its important that we understand the idea behind the variant / SSE. As I'm sure most of us know the whole thing is predicated on an uber strong city with tons of settled specialists (the reinforcing cycle of wonders into GP points to settle GPs to more GP points) and by denying the AIs most of the wonders we slow their pace down too.

Its very important to plan the start carefully and grab the early wonders to start the GP points and set the whole thing in motion. You can't implement this strategy after missing a lot of the early wonders.

So will need to do some calcs to see what tech path and wonder build order is best - I'll try do that today.

As far as settling, I'm def against SIP. We need for our cap not food surplus. And if we did SIP it guarantees we can't share the food with any other cities. 5 seafood (+ wheat) is overkill in a normal game anyway as it will be long time before our happy cap allows us to take advantage of the huge food surplus (whip anger will determine whipping pace not food/regrowth).
In addition for this variant we a) are not city spamming (so food surplus into settlers isn't good) as we focus on our capital and a tight empire to keep costs low and b) out capital needs to focus on wonder building not running specialists

I think that means something like settle ISE or wander inland...

If we settle 1SE it doesn't lose , still plenty of food and can settle 2nd city 1W of wheat for Clam+wheat+stone (which we want early). Only reason to change this would be if border pop for city 2 is not fast enough to get stone when we need it...

I realize I'm on a different tack to everyone here but lets make sure we play these first few turnsets very well

 

[ifinnem]

Any reason we picked Augustus? - it definitely makes it more of a challenge as SSE / diplomacy victory not helped at all by Imperialistic...

Better knuckle down to the task then!