World Wide Wonder

[Brian Shanahan]

Well we seem to be a bit off plan as regards getting TGW up. So I think cancel the warrior in Rome, finish the chop giving a 25 turn conservative estimate of getting TGW up (no growth, hammers rounded down, stone remains un-hooked. I am also thinking of growing to size four and whipping out a worker (currently 7.5 turns with 3 pop no whip) and putting the max overflow into TGW, but I haven't checked the numbers.

In Antium, I think I should take the corn for better growth (Rome desn't need it yet).

Of course if anyone can suggest a better way I'm all ears.

Whipping gives 45 hammers per pop on Epic right?

 

[cripp7]

stone will be hooked up in 9 turns if continuing to road, cancel the warrior and slot in a worker with the chop. have one roading to stone, the other start on the wheat while building TGW. or have them both road to get the stone up faster.

 

[Brian Shanahan]

I was thinking chop into TGW, grow to 4, select worker, whip max overflow into TGW, have one roading, and other chopping. I'm not one for testing things out in this kind of situation to see which is faster though. I'll also wait to Thursday to play.

 

[ifinnem]

@IPEX dude what were you up to???
Making mistakes is fine we all do that but just doing your own thing when we agreed a totally different plan is pretty frustrating

@Brian we do need to test this out as if we are not getting TGW by turn 70 (16 turns from now then we may wanna reconsider some units for barb defense

Also tech path we spoke about was to writing but we need to agree. Sailing was not an option discussed I don't think.

I'll try and test myself to see how best we can get TGW up

 

[Brian Shanahan]

@IPEX dude what were you up to???
Making mistakes is fine we all do that but just doing your own thing when we agreed a totally different plan is pretty frustrating

@Brian we do need to test this out as if we are not getting TGW by turn 70 (16 turns from now then we may wanna reconsider some units for barb defense

Also tech path we spoke about was to writing but we need to agree. Sailing was not an option discussed I don't think.

I'll try and test myself to see how best we can get TGW up

I'll test it too, then. But usually my test involves doing something in a game, and saying "that worked will try again", ot "that was a giant waste of my time Brian, never do that again".
I'll look over the game tonight, and see what I can do. But as I said I'm not playing (properly) 'til Thursday.

 

[Stochastic]

First off, I just realised that we can save a whole road section because of the convenient river layout. That will only be 1 turn because we've already got one turn into the current road and it will take one turn of moving into forest, but that's better than nothing right?

Proof:

Spoiler :

As for the off trackiness of it all, don't worry about it, now we can get the stone up a bit earlier while getting warriors (for scouting mostly) from Antium, so it isn't all bad.

If we hold off on the chop until we get the stone we'll get quite a few more hammers out of it. So I'd say go road the corner tile to Antium then go back for the chop. In Rome I think we should build the GW up to pop 4 then start a settler, bring the settler to max 2pop and then go back to building the GW until the road is finished (it should be very close to the settler's whip time anyways). Then whip, and come back to chop. We should end up getting the GW in quite soon. Then get a warrior to scout the silver hill for seafood and return for military police duty in Rome.

I chose settler over a worker because it would be nice to get a commerce city going (cottaged flood plains?) and with the GW we really don't need to worry about barbs, just other AIs, and it is a bit early for them to go nuts on us. It does put us very low on the worker/city ratio, but we'll be wanting to whip out more workers to speed the pyramids along. If the rest of the team would rather workers, I'm really on the fence, so that would be fine too.

As for techs, while Sailing will be nice for Rome, I think pottery should be priority number 1 because of the granaries. With all the whipping we are doing those are essential.

EDIT: Actually we don't have agriculture next, which we should get for Antium, so I think we should tech that first.

 

[Thy_Spellcraft]

I agree on chopping rather into TGW than into a settler or worker as we'd get both bonus the ind as well as the stone one so it would be max hammers for the forest!
About tech I'm not sure whether sailing is really a bad idea.. In case we want to try for GLH before Mids it's more than only a good idea, 'cause our worker is too busy to farm the wheat within the next rounds anyway so sailing would at least provide building the lighthouse right after TGW! Otherwise writing seems indeed the better idea!
About the next city: I'd prefere the green dot (grapping gold, silk an sheep) as it will be gone soon I fear!

 

[Stochastic]

About tech I'm not sure whether sailing is really a bad idea.. In case we want to try for GLH before Mids it's more than only a good idea, 'cause our worker is too busy to farm the wheat within the next rounds anyway so sailing would at least provide building the lighthouse right after TGW! Otherwise writing seems indeed the better idea!

The problem I have the GLH is I just don't see us having more than 3 cities on the coast (capital, silver, gold) so I'm not convinced that it will be worth it. I find it tends to go latish so I think we have a bit more time to consider where else we will be settling.

Right now farming will take 9 turns, our worker has 7 turns of road and 2 turns of chopping (including the time to get into forests) than we will have finished everything right as Agri is done. After Agri I still think pottery should be next because of the granaries. Our cities will either have low food/high hammers (and so want Granaries for faster growth) or will be whipping very frequently (and so want Granaries for more efficient recovery). At that point I think we will have a better idea of the surroundings and so could make a better choice about whether GLH is worth it.

About the next city: I'd prefere the green dot (grapping gold, silk an sheep) as it will be gone soon I fear!

Good point about grabbing resources first, if we do choose that city next than I would want to make the next 2pop whip a worker rather than a settler because of the long distance.

Also, after TGW and a warrior I think we should get a third WB so that we can work more seafood for faster recovery and oscillating between sizes 5-3 rather than 4-2.

 

[Brian Shanahan]

I did a quick test with my idea, and much the same without whipping another worker.

First whip out worker:
Turn 56 chop forest, T 57-63 road from Antium to river like Stochastic says.
T 58 put worker on build, 7 turns build, 3 turns for max overflow of 39 hammers on 2 pop whip.
T61 whip worker
T62 worker 2 chops plains hill, micro'd Rome to put one pop on mined hill.
T64 worker 1 helps out after fininshing road.
T66 forest chopped
T67 TGW!

Results: We have 2 workers now Antium is connected, with a warrior. Sailing is researched (didn't do anything except test TGW), Rome is at 2 pop. 2 forests chopped.

Test 2:
T56 Worker moves to make road to Antium from river, done T62
T62 Rome has stone TGW in 8turns.
T64 worker back to chop pre-chopped forest, TGW 2 turns.
T65 Rome goes to 5 pop, unhappy.
T66 TGW!

Results: TGW is one turn quicker, Rome has 5 pop, better for whipping, one forest chop needed, one worker. We can build settler in nine turns, or worker in 7 (whip unhappiness). Sailing in next turn.

In both tests a barb archer was chasing Hammy's bowman around the flood-plains, so TGW needed.

On the two tests done I like result 2 better, gives us TGW one turn earlier, and allows us to whip in 2 turns.

On tech we need to research pottery before writing, so Sailing is not a terrible idea, whip out a settler, build lighthouse, start TGL, and in the mean-time research to writing, through pottery.

So for my last 4 turns I propose whipping the settler, sending him up to the desert hill no.2, with the warrior from Antium providing cover on the way. I'll start a lighthouse in Rome, and have a worker building in Antium from t63.

Cross-post with Stochastic, yes a 25 minute post.

 

[Stochastic]

I'm surprised that you needed 2 chops to get the GW out in your first trial. How many overflow hammers did you get from the whip? Either way it looks like the second trial may well give a much better result, so nicely done with that.

After this set I think we ease off the testing though, I feel that there are too many variables that start to get introduced from the the other civs to make dummy maps useful.

 

[Brian Shanahan]

39 hammers from a 2 pop whip. That's why it took 2 chops, Rome was back to 2 pop with one on fish and one on mine. If I had waited for a one pop whip it would have been pointless.

 

[ifinnem]

Great seems like we are on track for getting TGW in time - nice work Brian

I'd vote against GLH since the way to maximize that wonder is spam cities on the coast and ideally on different continents. The idea with the SSE/WE is to focus on 1 super city with a few helpers so I don't see the synergy!

Techs for me would be Agri->AH->Writ or Pot->Writ

And as for city sites - green would be nice but no biggie if we miss it.

Been a while since I played vs Churchill. What is his diplo info (ie does he DoW @ pleased, fav civic, etc)
If we are confident we can keep him happy while we wonderspam then green is ok otherwise I would not settle in his face as the shared borders would raise DoW chance

Lets prioritize scouting the NW area

@ Brian
Not clear to me how you did the test but for the record we should not be testing possible approaches on this actual map (to avoid spoilers)

 

[Stochastic]

39 hammers from a 2 pop whip.

I think that we can whip the warrior for 52 hammers with the current worked tiles, that might be the difference then.

Great seems like we are on track for getting TGW in time - nice work Brian

I'd vote against GLH since the way to maximize that wonder is spam cities on the coast and ideally on different continents. The idea with the SSE/WE is to focus on 1 super city with a few helpers so I don't see the synergy!

Techs for me would be Agri->AH->Writ or Pot->Writ

And as for city sites - green would be nice but no biggie if we miss it.

Been a while since I played vs Churchill. What is his diplo info (ie does he DoW @ pleased, fav civic, etc)
If we are confident we can keep him happy while we wonderspam then green is ok otherwise I would not settle in his face as the shared borders would raise DoW chance

Lets prioritize scouting the NW area

@ Brian
Not clear to me how you did the test but for the record we should not be testing possible approaches on this actual map (to avoid spoilers)

I don't think Churchill declares at pleased, but I don't pay much attention to those sort of things so I'm open to correction.

I agree with pretty much everything you've said, though I think that we should get Agri and Pottery and maybe even AH (depending on if we settle the pigs) before writing. That will put writing relatively late, but I think it is necessary as food comes before everything else in my books.

 

[Thy_Spellcraft]

hmm could anybody please explain to my why we're going to rather whip a worker than a settler? As far as I know we're imp so would get bit more out of a pop building the settler than than worker.. And there is not TAHT much to do for the second one to speed him up that way I think. I'd build some warriors in Antium 'til size 2 and start the worker over there. In the moment we should start expanding to ensure at least some good land.
About tech: I'm fine with agri as well as it seems we don't want to go for TGL..

 

[Stochastic]

It's true that we would get more hammers per population from a settler, but I think that there is still quite a lot for a worker to do. We have at least two farms to build (wheat and floodplains) as well as two mines and roads towards our next city location.

So basically I see it as a question of do we want to expand quickly at the cost of having more inefficient cities or slower but risk having good locations stolen? That is why I'm still on the fence as to whether a settler or worker will be the better choice, I don't see either as having an overwhelming advantage.

I think the lack of a warrior escort is what has me most reluctant to get a settler right now. If we go for the gold site (which I strongly think we should because of the resources) than there is a long way for a settler to go with no backup.

 

[Brian Shanahan]

My tests showed the best results were with no whipping, we got it out a turn earlier with less chops (1v2).

@ifinnem I tested on the actual map but as I did nothing else, then I think I'm all right for spoilers, next time I'll worldbuilder an equivalent situation. Sorry for the mistake.

I didn't test a settler whip, but as the worker whip was worse I can't see how a settler whip will improve our position, as regards the imp bonus. I tested the worker whip as I felt he would be more useful for getting the wonder. I can always whip a settler after the wonder.

Plan is build the wonder according to test 2, research pottery>writing, build warrior followed by worker in Antium, whip settler out after TGW built and send him with Antium warrior towards gold.
I will play tomorrow late-afternoonish so any changes need to be said before then.

 

[cripp7]

going for the green spot would be good but we need a warrior to scout down there. if we're not going for GLH why research Sailing, go Ag > Pot > Writing and come back or trade for Sailing.

 

[Brian Shanahan]

Sorry forgot to mention that yes I will be abandoning sailing.

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

I thought this was a wonder hog game, that's why I selected Sailing, not to do my own thing, but to Wonder hog.

Pyramids needs stone BEFORE you should really start.

Are we just building wonders in Rome, and not trying to Hog all the wonders, because I'm a bit confused on that point.

Good point on the Road situation.

And on building the Great Wall BEFORE we have stone hooked up is wasting 50% of the Hammers, that could go towards workers or settlers.

 

[cripp7]

I thought this was a wonder hog game, that's why I selected Sailing, not to do my own thing, but to Wonder hog.

Pyramids needs stone BEFORE you should really start.

Are we just building wonders in Rome, and not trying to Hog all the wonders, because I'm a bit confused on that point.

True it is a wonder whore, IF[/b] we can get GLH then get it. could slot it in before Mids. Let's see what wonders we can realistically achieve.

Henge - have
Mids - will get
GLH - this seems to be the question at the moment. This is B&S map even though we don't have any coastal cities yet it does keep the AIs from getting it. +2 for Great Merchant If we can get it, might as well
Oracle - having no marble makes a little more difficult, but I would like to do a MC shot for the Colossus well help fuel all those coastal tiles(again, having no copper doesn't help, but having MC early we could still get that)

That's the short list, we can discuss the others once we get closer to the tech. Of course anything with stone surely helps.

Good point on the Road situation.

And on building the Great Wall BEFORE we have stone hooked up is wasting 50% of the Hammers, that could go towards workers or settlers.

So so you're saying go for workers/settlers/units until we get the stone hooked up?