World Wide Wonder

Brian Shanahan · Jul 22, 2010

Well I've played.

First the autolog:

Spoiler :

Now for my own personal log:
T55
Cancel warrior in Rome.
Change to Agriculture.

T56
Move worker NE to road from the river to Antium.

T57
Rome is 4 pop city, ensure new citizen is working plains hill.

T59
Rome pops it's border, and look who's taken to squatting

T62
Antium Warrior>Worker
Barb archer spotted on the flood plains.
Road completed to Antium, GW from 13t to 8t

T64
Agriculture in>Pottery.
Chop the pre-chopped forest on the grassland TGW -2t

T65
Rome grows again (unhappy now)

T66

Says it all, except that I picked a settler next.

T70
Nothing done, for next person.

General
I sent the Antium warrior south towards the gold, but he's being doing a dance with a barb warrior (fortunately not the sisal two-step).
I didn't whip the settler in Rome, but atm its a 2 pop whip with 40 hammers of an overflow.
The world as we know it:

I didn't do any dot-mapping, as I didn't explore much, apart from that indicated prod site all the current ones should still be open.
From the roster Stochastic is up.

The save:

Stochastic · Jul 22, 2010

cripp7 said:
True it is a wonder whore, IF[/b] we can get GLH then get it. could slot it in before Mids. Let's see what wonders we can realistically achieve.

Henge - have
Mids - will get
GLH - this seems to be the question at the moment. This is B&S map even though we don't have any coastal cities yet it does keep the AIs from getting it. +2 for Great Merchant If we can get it, might as well
Oracle - having no marble makes a little more difficult, but I would like to do a MC shot for the Colossus well help fuel all those coastal tiles(again, having no copper doesn't help, but having MC early we could still get that)

That's the short list, we can discuss the others once we get closer to the tech. Of course anything with stone surely helps.

I think that with our current tech rate we will have to choose between either GLH or Oracle. I just don't see us getting all the techs for both before someone else builds them. And we should start teching as soon as pottery is done.

Also, I see even less benifit from the Colossus than the GLH, but I think I'd still choose MC for the forges so that we get more out of each forest we chop.

@ the last set: Good news about TGW Slightly sad news about having 5 turns of unhappy citizens, if I had remembered that there was no military police I would have argued stronger against growing to size 5.
I think Antium would have been a bit better building warriors and growing but we'll need the worker anyways (though the floodplains would have been a better tile to work for the extra commerce).

Before I play my set we need a decision on the tech path. I see three options:
1) Sailing for GLH and instant trade routes with coastal cities.
2) Priesthood for Oracle (through meditation because that is faster)
3) Writing for scientists out of libraries and progress towards Math and Aesthetics.

Normally I'd go for 3, but because this is a wonder greedy variant I'd try to make a push for the Oracle.

As for the general details of my set, I plan to:
Whip settler, overflow into 'Mids, then get a warrior or two and a WB.
Settle the Gold.
Build Granaries.
Try to squeeze out one more worker (unlikely in the 15 turns available)

cripp7 · Jul 22, 2010

Push for the Oracle gambit, we should be able to get MC no prob. This being an Emp game, I'm not used to the AI tech pace!

ifinnem · Jul 22, 2010

Nice work on TGW. Will take a look at the save and add some thoughts

EDIT: My initial response on options presented by Stochastic would be to go writ->maths since AIs priotize maths and since we still need to build mids not sure the :science:

and

required to get the oracle are worth it. Frankly I think it will go in the early 1900s way before we can get there anyway...

Stochastic · Jul 22, 2010

ifinnem said:
Nice work on TGW. Will take a look at the save and add some thoughts

EDIT: My initial response on options presented by Stochastic would be to go writ->maths since AIs priotize maths and since we still need to build mids not sure the and required to get the oracle are worth it. Frankly I think it will go in the early 1900s way before we can get there anyway...

I'm also worried about the shortage of time, but I think that the variant compels us to give either GLH or the Oracle a shot.

Stochastic · Jul 23, 2010

Are there any other opinions on the tech path? If not than I think I'll play in 6ish hours, with a push for the Oracle after finishing pottery. If it does fall before my set ends than I'll swap for writing.

ifinnem · Jul 23, 2010

Stochastic said:
Are there any other opinions on the tech path? If not than I think I'll play in 6ish hours, with a push for the Oracle after finishing pottery. If it does fall before my set ends than I'll swap for writing.

If we are taking a run at the Oracle (which I agree is less costly gamble than GLH) why would we go pottery next? Either we go directly for PH or skip the Oracle all together surely?

Stochastic · Jul 23, 2010

Well since pottery is due in 2 turns, so I was thinking of finishing it off first. We have been a bit unfocused in our tech path, and I'm reluctant to swap out so near to completion, but you are right, a true push would drop pottery right now.

After a bit of contemplation I think I will swap out of Pottery.

Stochastic · Jul 24, 2010

Inherited turn 70
Whip settler
Swap Antium to work flood plains for extra commerce.
Tech path rerouted again to PH beeline
Focus all EPs on Churchill.

Turn 71
Mids get 135 true hammers invested

Turn 72
Start on warrior to get MP duties.

Turn 74
Settler in place, hold out on settling to keep tech rate up for now and to wait for worker to show up.

Turn 77
Romes Warrior done, start WB.

Turn 79
Antium finishes Worker, start on Warrior
Start on PH. Micro tiles for max commerce to get PH in 6 rather than 7 turns.

Turn 81
Seeing that Churchills newer border just popped, with PH coming up soon and with a worker on the way, I decided that it is time to settle Cumae.

Spoiler :

Also re micro Rome back to the hammer tile since PH is in 4 regardless.

Turn 82
WB done. Consider exploring but decide to catch clams instead.
Put a turn into Mids waiting for growth before swapping into worker.

Turn 85
PH done (and the Oracle is still up for grabs :please:

), choose Pottery
The rest of the set is unplayed., but the worker should probably start chopping the trees with roads to save a turn.

The Empire:

Spoiler :

Thoughts for next set:
Im not sure, but I think we can get the Oracle in less than 10 turns with a combo of whip and chop, Im not sure what will be best though. I think one chop and two whips would be best if we can do it because that will save trees for the 100% stone bonus (and maybe math too). Ill run a test map sometime tomorrow.

When we get pottery Antium and Cumae should start building Granaries immediately (whip too) for max growth speed in arid land.
The worker by Antium should get over to the gold just after the border pop if there is some road building on the hills.

The warriors in production should probably go scout NW when competed

Thy_Spellcraft · Jul 24, 2010

Seems it's me who's next, so got it!
It's pretty obvious about next set: I'll wait fopr another turn to whip the worker with max overflow into Oracle, regrow to size four and start on another settler which will get :whipped:

as well for max overflow. Afterwards I'll regrow lightly slower to get a few more hammers into Oracle. Meanwhile I'll build a mine on that plainhill we're already working. I'm not sure whether I'll finish Orale during my set (too lazy to calculate..) but just in case: Is there a consensus on MC from Oracle for forges and colossus or rather CoL for Chichen Itza? I'd vote for MC and selfresearching CoL after getting writing. After getting gold and silver online this would bring 2 happy faces which will be quite helpful for our massive whipping in Rome!
Techwise I'd head for writing --> CoL but about settling I'm not sure whether we should settle inbetween Rome and cumae (I'd take 1N of the sheep) to make sure Churchill won't be able to sneak in a city there or rather scout the north a bit more for settling that direction.

cripp7 · Jul 24, 2010

do you think that ChurchHill would send a settler down there

ifinnem · Jul 24, 2010

Thy_Spellcraft said:
Is there a consensus on MC from Oracle for forges and colossus or rather CoL for Chichen Itza? I'd vote for MC and selfresearching CoL after getting writing.

I think skip Colossus w/o copper but I agree the MC for cheap forges makes sense (plus denying free tech to AI is very valuable)

I'll do a calc on completion for Oracle if I can

ifinnem · Jul 24, 2010

Took a look at the save and here are my thoughts

1) Why did we improve clam before other fish? (Fish is 5F and ocean so free from barb galleys..)
2) Our next border pop is 22 turns so that should be enough to keep silver for us with a later city. I'd prioritize settling the FP site N next
3) Tech path post Oracle. Writ->Math
We need to get mids up after Oracle as it will give us happiness and +3 :science:

from spezies
Math next since AIs go for this early and we want HG (stone wonder)

Most importantly I'd say best path for Oracle is
a) whip worker in 2 turns for max overflow into Oracle
b) Send worker to chop forest (no plains hill)
c) Slow build Oracle on max food (growth to size 4) until we can work max :hammers:

while starving back to 1 turn from shrinking
This should get us Oracle in 13 turns. We could gain 2 turns I think by whipping the Oracle as soon as we can

I really think our odds of landing it are low so no sure the extra whip is worth it but I believe that is the quickest way

Stochastic · Jul 24, 2010

I also agree with MC but not Colossus, we need to finish off the pyramids first and there are plenty of other wonders to go for.

As for the tech path, I disagree with CoL, I would rather get Math (Hanging Gardens and hammers from chop) and Aesthetics (trade bait+Parthenon and NE)->Lit(TGL).

Also, I've run some tests using whipping and chopping and I think the fastest way to get the Oracle right now only whips once. It worked like this:
1)Steal the wheat from Antium and then work max hammers (no seafood) Building the Oracle
2) Chop one forest
3) Whip Oracle for two pop
3) Oracle comes in around turn 7
Alternatively you can choose to not whip it and get it 4 turns later.

Edit: Re the Clam vs Fish (half hour cross post!). I thought that we needed the extra commerce more than the extra food and right now we grow back to 4 in two turns regardless of whether we work clam or fish. And the Galleys shouldn't be a problem because of our huge cultural borders (famous last words right?)

Here's the dummy map:

ifinnem · Jul 24, 2010

Stochastic said:
1)Steal the wheat from Antium and then work max hammers (no seafood) Building the Oracle
2) Chop one forest
3) Whip Oracle for two pop
3) Oracle comes in around turn 7
Alternatively you can choose to not whip it and get it 4 turns later.

Nice work - good idea on stealing the wheat.
Had another idea if we don't plan to whip the Oracle - perhaps it is quicker to work max hammers until we are at 150/225 then do worker for 2 turns and whip it with overflow? (or at least as quick but we get a worker too)

ifinnem · Jul 24, 2010

Stochastic said:
Edit: Re the Clam vs Fish (half hour cross post!). I thought that we needed the extra commerce more than the extra food and right now we grow back to 4 in two turns regardless of whether we work clam or fish. And the Galleys shouldn't be a problem because of our huge cultural borders (famous last words right?)

Yeah hard to know which is better +1C vs +1F. The extra food can be use for workers/settler and also once we have mids+gold+silver our happy cap will be 10 so need all the food we can for quick growth. No biggie prob...

Re the barbs they can see ~7 (I think its 7/8) tiles into borders so unless we have nothing to pillage 7 tiles from the edge of our borders they will enter and pillage. Net net if we do lose a clam boat lets send the next one to the fish

Stochastic · Jul 24, 2010

The trouble whipping in the worker is it adds 4 turns (3 for investing hammers/food 1 for whip) to the construction time. I think we are all mostly in agreement that things are being cut quite fine as it is, so I'd prefer to bite the whipping wonders penalty and get it out sooner.

Also, we should chop the trees on the hill plain so that we can build a mine right after. That saves another set of trees for the pyramids and Gardens as I think we should get a forge up right after the Oracle.

cripp7 · Jul 24, 2010

Stochastic said:
I also agree with MC but not Colossus, we need to finish off the pyramids first and there are plenty of other wonders to go for.

As for the tech path, I disagree with CoL, I would rather get Math (Hanging Gardens and hammers from chop) and Aesthetics (trade bait+Parthenon and NE)->Lit(TGL).

.
How many turns, would it be for the Colossus with a forge? How many more : hammers: would a forge give? I agree about going math >aesthetics >literature

Also, I've run some tests using whipping and chopping and I think the fastest way to get the Oracle right now only whips once. It worked like this:
1)Steal the wheat from Antium and then work max hammers (no seafood) Building the Oracle
2) Chop one forest
3) Whip Oracle for two pop
3) Oracle comes in around turn 7
Alternatively you can choose to not whip it and get it 4 turns later.

chop the plain hill, so we can get that mine in there. I'm really not for whipping wonders, but it ensures us of getting it

Edit: Re the Clam vs Fish (half hour cross post!). I thought that we needed the extra commerce more than the extra food and right now we grow back to 4 in two turns regardless of whether we work clam or fish. And the Galleys shouldn't be a problem because of our huge cultural borders (famous last words right?)

Here's the dummy map:

at least until the mids are in I think we have enough food, I think the extra commerce is needed. Once a lighthouse and the other fish is in will have plenty of food. Hopefully, the galleys won't be a problem.

ifinnem · Jul 24, 2010

Stochastic said:
The trouble whipping in the worker is it adds 4 turns (3 for investing hammers/food 1 for whip) to the construction time. I think we are all mostly in agreement that things are being cut quite fine as it is, so I'd prefer to bite the whipping wonders penalty and get it out sooner.

Doesn't the worker already have 13 :hammers:

invested? Therefore its 2 turns to invest before whipping but we save at least 2 turns on building with the overflow. Anyway I can't look at the save so I'll trust that the details have been worked through

Stochastic · Jul 24, 2010

cripp7 said:
.
How many turns, would it be for the Colossus with a forge? How many more : hammers: would a forge give? I agree about going math >aesthetics >literature

Hard to say as it depends on how many whips/chops we invest.
For the forge, I know that with the hills plain as a mine we will be getting 9 :hammers:

/turn base so that would be an extra 2 :hammers:

. But it also multiplies overflow and chops, I think that after Math we'll get an extra 11 :hammers:

per tree if we have a forge and overflow will be similar. So the cost of getting the forge in now should be recouped very quickly, especially since we are industrious.

ifinnem said:
Doesn't the worker already have 13 invested? Therefore its 2 turns to invest before whipping but we save at least 2 turns on building with the overflow. Anyway I can't look at the save so I'll trust that the details have been worked through

That's a good point, I'd completely forgotten about that! Unfortunately I don't have the time to reevaluate it properly right now, but here is a quick mental calculation based on memory. I think that we get 13 :hammers:

/turn on max hammers so we'd have to get 39 overflow to break even (13*3) assuming the whip would be in 2 turns from now.

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