Worst Unique Unit?

[Kesshi]

One thing about Fast Workers is that you can move them two spaces (on flat land) and build something to get a full 2 moves + a build in the same turn. This is very a useful micromanagement tip for "saving worker turns."

Sans India, If I have to move my Worker over 2 non-roaded spaces, I'll move my worker 1 space, and build something, then cancel it immediately. Next turn I'll move it one space and build whatever I wanted. No loss of turns, with a free 1 turn of building. Fast Workers can exploit this type of Micromanagement far better than regular Workers.

They aren't close to being anything I would consider the worst UU. They are not situational, as I find moving onto a mountiantop and still being able to build a road or mine that same turn very handy.

 

[DaveMurray]

The usefulness of the fast worker is based on the speed and to a lesser extent the size of the map. Obviously being able to spend two movement points and improve on the same turn is going to be far more useful on quick and standard speed then on epic or marathon. Also a player on a huge would find the 3 movement points much more useful if then had to send a few workers back to rebuild an improvement that was destroyed by spies or random events. For me, a situational UU could neither be a good or a bad UU unless the situations that would make it good or bad come up fairly often. I think it's safe to say that most game settings are played fairly evenly so I don't think the fast worker is the best or the worst UU, it just depends on the settings of the game.

Panzer has to be the worst unit in the game which is a shame since Panzer General is one of my favorite games.

 

[obsolete]

Panzer has to be the worst unit in the game which is a shame since Panzer General is one of my favorite games.

It was either give them the Panzer, or give them the U-Boat. The U-Boat would most likely suck even more so....

I think Ballista Elephant sill wins worst prize. America's UU also seems to be a very poor contender in my books, I suppose it may be a little better than the Panzer.

 

[AfterShafter]

It was either give them the Panzer, or give them the U-Boat. The U-Boat would most likely suck even more so....

I think Ballista Elephant sill wins worst prize. America's UU also seems to be a very poor contender in my books, I suppose it may be a little better than the Panzer.

Or they could have gone with something a bit more novel... A special missionary called the Protestant, seeing as Protestant movement started in Germany. The Industrious worker, with a bonus to building roads (autobahns) and workshops or something. Or the Messerschmidt, a special fighter plane... Tons of different, and more distinctive routes they could have gone with the German UU.

 

[DaveMurray]

It was either give them the Panzer, or give them the U-Boat. The U-Boat would most likely suck even more so....

I think Ballista Elephant sill wins worst prize. America's UU also seems to be a very poor contender in my books, I suppose it may be a little better than the Panzer.

Would have been better to give them stormtroopers which were specialized units the Germans were developing towards the end of WWI to break the stalemate of trench warfare. Could have a bonus against MGs.

The best UUs tend to be the ones with bonuses against their normal counters or ones with bonuses against all units and that come out early enough to be effective. At least with BEs you can kill most of the enemies HAs or Knights if you manage to hit their stack in the field first and prevent your siege from being flanked into the ground. Yes they're a bad unit but I can think of a realistic niche were they might be useful. The Navy Seal is at least overall better against all units then it's marine counterpart. Thing with the panzer is there's no realistic niche as the AI or any human wouldn't be foolish enough to send a stack of just tanks into your lands. It's not better against all units then it's normal counterpart and comes the latest out of all units so even if there was an advantage to the unit, it would have the least amount of time to be leveraged.

In Comic Book Guy fashion, "Worst UU Ever."

 

[whitelaughter]

Or they could have gone with something a bit more novel... A special missionary called the Protestant, seeing as Protestant movement started in Germany. The Industrious worker, with a bonus to building roads (autobahns) and workshops or something. Or the Messerschmidt, a special fighter plane... Tons of different, and more distinctive routes they could have gone with the German UU.

*one* Protestant movement started in Germany. Still, I also feel that UU Missionaries could make the game both more fun and more realistic.

The problem with Germany is that The Holy Roman Empire covers most of Germany's history. Still, for modern history, Germany has always used the same tactics, adapted and renamed: Frederick's "Oblique Order" is WWI "Stormtrooper tactics" is WWII's "Blitzkreig". So how about a UU Musketman with Flanking?

(The name Germany comes from a Latin phrase meaning 'the birthplace of nations' (yes, it's related to 'germinate'). Does that inspire any unit creation thoughts?)

 

[AfterShafter]

But it was the first protestant movement In a way, an inspiration for those that followed. The Reformation found its origin in what is now Germany...

Yeah, Germany is a very tricky "nation" to nail down. The fact that they include the HRE complicates things more, because what could have been looked at as classical Germany before the unification into modern Germany is now pretty clearly in the realm of the HRE. I'd have preferred to see the HRE left out, and had Germany lumped together, the classical pre-unification German states and the modern Germany all being "Germany"... I mean, heck, one of the current German rulers comes from a time before Germany proper existed, so that would make sense.

Anyways, yeah, I think it would have been a spiffy opportunity to put in something a bit different for a UU... But they didn't, so that's that.

 

[Tephros]

Dogs are 500lb gorrilas. They can travers the early map with impunity. Nothing can beat them in the field.

Woe to any civ that starts too close to SB. He will steal you worker and pillage your lands while he expands and you stay idle. Enough Dogs will take some cities, but swordsmen aren't too far beyond BW.

That's actually a good comparison. But like the 500-lb. gorilla they make an easier target for archers and chariots than whatever you'd want to compare regular axes to. Resourceless makes up for that to make them not the worst, though. Low-tier but not bottom.

 

[whitelaughter]

But it was the first protestant movement In a way, an inspiration for those that followed. The Reformation found its origin in what is now Germany...

err- no. The oldest surviving Protestant denomination are the Waldensians, who celebrated surviving their first millennia - last century.

The way to play balance Unique missionary units would be to give them a 'capture' line so that a normal missionary can be siezed if you're not careful.

Thinking about the Christian denominations, there're two major splits for civ purposes: between the churches which run on national lines and those that don't; and those that are very intellectual :beaker: and those that are more emotive

So breaking up the major European Christian denominations (with indicating spead of nation) would give:

Catholic:
Orthodox:
Lutheran: :beaker:
Calvinist: :beaker::beaker:
Anglican: :beaker:

The Baptists should probably give :happy: with Emancipation and with anything else, to reflect their work in ending the slave trade etc.

Yeah, Germany is a very tricky "nation" to nail down. The fact that they include the HRE complicates things more, because what could have been looked at as classical Germany before the unification into modern Germany is now pretty clearly in the realm of the HRE. I'd have preferred to see the HRE left out, and had Germany lumped together, the classical pre-unification German states and the modern Germany all being "Germany"... I mean, heck, one of the current German rulers comes from a time before Germany proper existed, so that would make sense.

Is it possible for different leaders to have different UUs? If so, a different leader/UU from each of the Principalities?

Anyways, yeah, I think it would have been a spiffy opportunity to put in something a bit different for a UU... But they didn't, so that's that.

No, that is most certainly not that! Mods, my friend, mods! I'm slowly learning how to mod, so hope to do an ancient Israel mod later this year, and then maybe one day an Australasian mod. If everybody does whatever interests them, we'll end up with everything covered.

 

[champ82]

Jaguar Warrior

Does not require iron. In theory this is great. Trouble is by the time you discover IW the AI most likely has axes, unless you have harassed it early on and prevented it from obtaining any metal. Not nearly as clutch as the Dog Solider or Holkan not needing copper.

They are cheaper. But when attacking cities they die more often (because their strength is lower), so you need more of them, so not really. And if you need more, the stack costs more in maintenance and supply which is even more of a drag in early wars.

Woodsman I (and potential for woodsman II after barracks.) This can help with some niche situations of moving through the forest really fast but they won’t be able to be escorted with axes, bows, or mounted units. As for the added forests/ jungle defense normally the AI will be reluctant to attack stacks or single units in forests anyway. If woodsman II allowed a unit to move faster in non forested tiles then this could be great for pillaging key resources of the AI. But since almost all improved tiles are deforested, Jags that have spent a turn pillaging a resource are still vulnerable to axes, bows and horses using the home turf Civs’s roads.

Woodsman III is fantastic but how are we getting it? Theocracy and vassalage appear when the swordsman is about to go out of favor. If we’re getting it from a settled GG then a stock city raider II swordsman or anti-arrow promotion (cover?) would also be pretty sweet. Are we getting woodsman III from attacking cities? Do these cities have axmen or protective bows? Seems like if they do then Woodsman II Jags are going to die against them. Unless we have catapults, in which case YOU DON’T REALLY NEED THE JAG IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I’ll take the city raider promotion line and base strength of 6 thank you. I use swordsman usually in my first war (if I use them at all) and they are a niche unit I make low quantaties of to attack cities, not to go running off into the woods alone or hoping that if they somehow live they will be bad ass combat medics some day.

Disclaimer : I know, I know, blasphemy etc. (I’ve heard it before.) If you like Jags and use them well, more power to you. They don’t fit my play style though. I would rather have the stock swordsman. Say what you want about the Ballista Elephant or the Panzer (which I admit, is rather poor) there is no reason why you would prefer a standard tank or war elephant to them.

On the Panzer : Yes it does suck. But I have seen them (once) in action believe it or not. It is my understanding that multi-player games don’t normally go this long into the tech tree. But if they did (and they might in an MP game with only 2 human players on opposite ends of the planet) they could be useful. Sending stacks of tanks ahead to get one city can be very tempting, especially if you have bombers. If you capture that city you can quickly move in support units using no man’s land railroads. Also the Panzer is a good defensive unit to prevent those with tanks or even modern armor from taking you over. You could delay advanced flight, which could be useful, especially if there’s a tight space race going on. Yes, it is very niche and I admit that it sucks, but I thought I’d throw that out there all the same. Finally, I think the assembly plant is amazing (explaining why would take a while though.) So the UU should not be good (although maybe it should be a little better.) It is my belief that if a civ has a good UB they should have a weak UU and vice versa or just mediocre both. For the most part I think the game did a good job with this, but there are some exceptions.

On the Ballista Elephant : If ivory wasn’t rare this unit would be fantastic. Having a neighbor with them is scary and forcing yourself to get Engineering ASAP can be a real inconvenience to your plans.

On the Navy SEAL : In late war I often raze coastal cities. Marines can be quite useful for either razing or getting a foothold in another continent. A super marine is nothing to sneeze at. The drill promotions will make retaliatory artillery attacks less effective as well. The fact that both America’s UU and UB come so late does kind of blow, but how could they have made America true to history without doing this? On a completely random note - the unique jet fighter was badass in Civ III.

On the Dog Soldier : It’s hilarious how much Prats are adored yet how much the Dog Soldier is dissed. Question : What’s a better contemporary defense against the Prats than Dog Soldiers? Answer : Nothing. I DO see why one would prefer a regular Axeman to it so the arguments against Dog Soldiers are valid. Personally however, I am a fan. I enjoy the extra security they offer. Good at defending until post macemen. In this sense they make a unit with one of, if not the, longest shelf life last even longer.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Jags are great for super medics, very easy to get W III Medic III with a great general. Other than that they're good for some quite strikes on cities (2 move wars are underestimated), but that's it. IMO stock swords are pretty weak anyway so it's arguable how bad the jag is ----> at least they have a use. Interestingly woods II jags will beat anything in their era if defending on jungle/woods (yay 10+str) so they could conceivably be pretty annoying stack defenders. I'd rather have vultures, prats, or some such obviously but I'd take jags over BE or panzer garbage anyday.

 

[champ82]

Do the bonuses of woodsman III and medic III stack? If so they are better than I thought. That is pretty diesel. Still I don't like the Jag. Saying 'any early unit + great general is amazing' isn't that convincing of an argument for me because early UUs should help you get the GG in the first place firstly and be used well with a GG secondly.

I've read enough of your posts TMIT and seen the youtube videos to know you know what you're talking about. So I will concede. I guess in my heart of hearts I do know that Panzers are worse than Jags. I just didn't want to admit it because I don't like jags. The niche potential of the Jag is better than the very limited potential of the panzers when it's all said and done though. Personally though, I am not attracted to the niche uses, it doesn't fit my style. I suppose you could use 2 or 3 to stay in a woods near one city creating a red hering and then taking out another city with a big stack.

I should say I've only tried the Aztecs once. I probably shoud have used the Jags less as stack threats and more as scouting / pilliaging units that perpetually confuse the AI into not knowing which city to defend the best. I don't like the Aztecs (disclaimer : not saying they're weak, I just don't like them) though. The whipping cycle confuses me. It is the most useful pre hereditary rule IMO. After that I generally like to focus on long term production as opposed to whipping. So after the forge, granery, possibly monument, library, barracks and courthouse are up and especially if I have guilds, I'd rather do Caste System. But if you do this as Monty you're not leveraging him right. I don't like leaders that ask you to stay behind the times like Monty and Izzy.

Oh but wait Monty is Spirtual. OK that makes his UB better as you could switch back so slavery to whip out expensive essential buildings (like the 6 Unis or Banks.) That makes him better.

So Jags are 2nd worse in my book.

Maybe realistically BE's are worse than Jags too. But...the...concept...of...war elephants...with huge bows on them...is...just...too...awesome. If Ivory was as common as horse they'd be one of the very best. Normal elephants are already good at offense and BEs are amazing defenders to have in your territory. Both times I played Khmer though I didn't have it

 

[Iranon]

Woodsman III and the Medic line stack only when on the same unit.

With the Aztects, your mileage my vary to an astonishing degree.

'A UB with a very situational benefit I'm rarely going to use and my standard city attacker is nerfed to hell? Bah!'

'The biggest production edge in the whole game, and it's coupled with a cheaper courthouse (fades away for a while... but whipping arguably beats regular production again in the late game)?
A UU that makes for extremely easy super healers and a superb tactical unit (the AI consistently overlooks the mobility of Woodsman II)? Fast track to the generally amazing Woodsman III?
Awesome advantages, and having to actively use them only increases their geek appeal!'

 

[champ82]

Woodsman III and the Medic line stack only when on the same unit.

With the Aztects, your mileage my vary to an astonishing degree.

'A UB with a very situational benefit I'm rarely going to use and my standard city attacker is nerfed to hell? Bah!'

'The biggest production edge in the whole game, and it's coupled with a cheaper courthouse (fades away for a while... but whipping arguably beats regular production again in the late game)?
A UU that makes for extremely easy super healers and a superb tactical unit (the AI consistently overlooks the mobility of Woodsman II)? Fast track to the generally amazing Woodsman III?
Awesome advantages, and having to actively use them only increases their geek appeal!'

I'm not dissing the UB of the Aztecs. I'm not into it though.

You're making good points but I'm not really seeing how becoming Woodsman III is that easy. OK, with a GG obviously it is. But without one? Who are you fighting to get that W III promotion? A loose archer, spearman or chariot or a collateraly damaged city defender is pretty much all I can think of. Even then, don't you need 2 of these victories to get this promo? VERY SITUATIONAL.

Slavery in late game? I'm sure some do it. Seems tough to me, especially at the higher levels. Your Oxford, Ironworks, Wall Street and Great Person Farm seem like they will suffer since they all do better with higher populations. As for the filler cities - yeah I can see whipping them down to create a monster unstopable army of just waves and waves of troops. I'm sure it can be done well, but I'd need to see it. Lowering a pop that could be working a mine + 1 from railroad x forge x factory x power plant seems like a short term solution when I would rather have a longer term solution.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Rusten did a few deity walkthroughs a while back with the Aztecs (IIRC one of his favorite civs), and can definitely highlight their finer points better than me .

As Iranon points out, the sac alter ranges from OK if used suboptimally to completely ridiculous if used to its potential.

Edit:

I've read enough of your posts TMIT and seen the youtube videos to know you know what you're talking about. So I will concede.

Although I may occasionally seem a tad brusque (usually that involves events though ) my intention is never any form of concession. No matter how many times I (or anyone else) make a good post or upload a YouTube video, any "skill" level is fleeting. Nobody is immune to errors (and nobody wins games on name alone...if only it were so easy!), so what I post are my opinions, which I at least TRY to keep accurate. Rather than a concession, I was hoping to lend insight as to why the Aztec UU actually is pretty good, and one reason is definitely that 1) you need wood III medic III on the same unit in order to get the stacked 40% healing/turn and 2) it is the single easiest unit on which to attain that promotion combination in the game.

The resourceless element isn't game breaking, but it isn't useless either. In particular, this means that you can whip or build jags in new cities (even recently captured cities) immediately, without any connection issues for metal. Since monty is giving these guys combat I instantly as well, they're only marginally less efficient than the typical sword for a non-AGG leader anyway, so it's not like the CR line sucks on them. Note that resourceless = slightly faster than swords too, so if the enemy doesn't have copper, you have a decent chance of hitting him before IW if you see a rush target and the opportunity for a beelined jag rush. Just depends. I wouldn't rate them top tier but certainly over many others, even over things like the carrack, musketeer, and HRE UU.

 

[obsolete]

Or the Messerschmidt, a special fighter plane...

Did you want that UU as a plane, or jet version? Anyhow, both versions will suffer the same fate as the Americans. It comes too late (if at all)..

 

[Iranon]

The BF-109 (most-produced combat aircraft of all time) wasn't anything special in terms of performance or capabilities, if anything it should receive a cost cut - notable concessions were made to make them easy and cheap to produce. Given that otherwise Germany tended more towards overengineering than pragmatism, that would feel off thematically. The jet fighters weren't nearly common or successful enough to justify their inclusion as a UU.

But then... German tanks have an inflated repuation - the Soviet Union more than kept up. Americans in particular got a slightly distorted impression because they brought a knife to a swordfight (justifiable on grounds of mobility and logistics... but telling the tank crews they could go toe to toe with Panthers and Tigers in their M4s set them up for a nasty surprise).
Given that Germany had its biggest successes with markedly inferior tanks, thanks to more flexible doctrines and better communications (almost all German tanks were fitted with radio), a historically accurate bonus is tricky to come up with as well.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Then again, it could be completely different since history is only dictated somewhat accurately (at best) and simply disseminated over and over again. just thought I'd add my cynicism here.

 

[AfterShafter]

err- no. The oldest surviving Protestant denomination are the Waldensians, who celebrated surviving their first millennia - last century.

Ha ha, I guess that's what I get for pretending I'm a historian of some sort! I just remember hearing professors harping on about the protestant Reformation starting in Germany, but that was a while ago, and I guess the devil is in the details.

The way to play balance Unique missionary units would be to give them a 'capture' line so that a normal missionary can be siezed if you're not careful.

Thinking about the Christian denominations, there're two major splits for civ purposes: between the churches which run on national lines and those that don't; and those that are very intellectual :beaker: and those that are more emotive

So breaking up the major European Christian denominations (with indicating spead of nation) would give:

Catholic:
Orthodox:
Lutheran: :beaker:
Calvinist: :beaker::beaker:
Anglican: :beaker:

The Baptists should probably give :happy: with Emancipation and with anything else, to reflect their work in ending the slave trade etc.

Personally, I always wished they had some sort of special missionary UU. I don't think, given the way the game goes, it would be good to have it limited to only interacting with Christianity though... While a German Taoist super-missionary doesn't make sense, neither does Germany building the Pyramids - yet, here we are!

I was figuring either the ability to "kill" other missionaries without a dow, the ability to scrub religions from your cities, the ability to spread religion twice, or the ability to spread more than one religion (if your civ has them). The second and third seem like they'd get the most use, though, I wonder if people would complain this gives the Germans a unique advantage? No more than the Carrack, I'd argue, but...

Is it possible for different leaders to have different UUs? If so, a different leader/UU from each of the Principalities?



No, that is most certainly not that! Mods, my friend, mods! I'm slowly learning how to mod, so hope to do an ancient Israel mod later this year, and then maybe one day an Australasian mod. If everybody does whatever interests them, we'll end up with everything covered.

No idea if giving different leaders different UU's is possible, but it's probably moddable... Though, and which way is, I'm one of those people who almost never mods after bad experiences with them. Of course, those were in the 90's, so maybe it's time to give them another try...

 

[Crusher1]

Keshik
Numedian Cavalry - Horse back riding is a very Expensive early tech for a spearman type unit to rape you.
Camel Archer

Anyone voting Fast worker was smoking some good crack.