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Worst UU

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Blahblahman123, Nov 11, 2010.

  1. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    Well that's all fine and dandy but you didn't say how the panzer specifically helped you. I have trampled the AI with tanks, on occasion, although it is quite rare. However, when I am fighting with tanks my tanks are hitting cities that are defended by infantry or anti-tank infantry. Occassionally they will fight machine guns, and sometimes the AI throws hordes of cavalry at them. What has never happened, though, is a massive tank on tank battle, and I mean never. I've played probably a thousand or more games of Civ, been playing for years, and there has not been a single game that I have ever played, EVER, where my tanks were fighting other tanks. So how does the panzer bonus help? If you trampled the AI with panzers you could have done the same with tanks, there would have been no difference.
    As for the SEAL, well, I also highly doubt that unit made a significant difference to your game. In fact I'm 100% certain it did not. It looks cool, but it is meaningless.
     
  2. maurcus

    maurcus Warlord

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    if you play seals well you can get them ~10 fs and insta heal almost every turn that is nothing to scoff at. and as for the panzer its bonus is usually useless but it allows you to avoid getting anti tank guns. plus you can take on modern armour with fair odds.
     
  3. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    The very existence of this thread is a loop lol.

    I scoff at them. They get stack-wiped by nukes every bit as easily as any other unit in the game, and they are also still vulnerable to collateral and especially to air power. They are to be sure a significant upgrade over the marine, but the problem with that is that late in the game it's no longer about the strength of an individual unit so much as several used in tandem for rapid conquest. You can non-stop conquer with SEALs + destroyers/carriers, but with maybe 10 more marines you can do it with anybody just as well (you'll have a super medic by then).

    They really aren't more effective in land wars than simply spamming arty + anything, and in naval wars the fighters or nukes are the key unit.

    Lol, if they have modern armor they're going to have gunships, mechinf, or both in short order if they don't alreayd, and the panzer isn't impressive vs either. Panzer itself is vulnerable to anti-tank, air, nukes, and collateral initiative just like every other modern unit.

    For any unit coming that late to be a material advantage despite an ancient start, you'd have to do something along the lines of a 3-4 move panzer with a strength boost or more, or a SEAL with 30+ strength, first strikes, and more. If you don't, these units simply get their pants pulled down by bombers, fighters, nukes, and arty before their unique bonuses do anything important.
     
  4. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    Yep, Praets are great on any land-heavy, normal speed Deity map:

    Spoiler :





    ...becomes:

    Spoiler :




    Teching Iron Working isn't a problem as long as you can find one commercial resource, or heavily cottage a riverside city. Neither has to be in the cap.

    /Duckweed mode, c. 2012

    ---

    I actually quite like SEALs. They're well balanced, except for the fact that they arrive so late.

    Bowmen are really poorly designed. Panzers are probably the worst UU. War Chariots, Quecha, and Praets are all cheesy, but I like warring with Julius. Workers shouldn't be able to outrun Modern Armors, regardless of place of birth.
     
  5. maurcus

    maurcus Warlord

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    I never worry about nukes as i always pass non-proliferation prior to conquest, also i will take along some mechinf with interception to counter planes. also the drill makes you immune to collateral damage.
     
  6. AW Arcaeca

    AW Arcaeca Deus Vult

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    No matter how many people say the fast worker is an excellent UU, I still think its horrible. But I don't feel like typing out all the reasons why because I'm too lazy to type out an essay on a forum.
     
  7. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Yeah, it would indeed be a waste of your time as it would not convince anybody, as most know for a fact how great the unit is. ;) (Once you learn why it is so good you will become a better player)
     
  8. Fippy

    Fippy Mycro Junkie Queen

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    Fast Workers can be game winners, if you can chop out that crucial early wonder a bit quicker..they are like being mini-Ind ;)
    Sounds weird? Well if your forests are plenty, it's down to tech speed and wonder building speed. Faster Workers should if you use them wisely, speed up your wonder date.
     
  9. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Haha no.

    1. Drill reduces collateral damage. Nothing short of unit typing makes you immune.
    2. You are now effectively bringing along at least 3 unit types, and no longer gain particularly impressive benefits from either the panzer or the SEAL in such a scenario.

    "I don't have actual reasons this is a horrible UU, so I will use the guise of not wanting to type them out as a means of hiding that fact".

    I suppose they *are* pretty lackluster if you run marathon. Otherwise, nope. Tied for earliest UU, guaranteed benefit that you see all game long, and significant turns saved early = more impact than the majority of UUs, and on a consistent basis. It's not that you just don't want to bother showing why that's "horrible", it's that you can't do it :).
     
  10. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    ^^^it should be noted that this is a guy who also never uses slavery :lol:
     
  11. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Are you referring to me or him? I'm pretty sure I use slavery :whip:...maybe not as much as say ZZZ, but still.

    Workers are actually somewhat de-valued (but still mandatory and critically important) if you whip very efficiently, since they have more time to catch up on tile improvements as opposed to city growth onto unimproved tiles. This is part of the reason slavery is strong early in the game (it lets you concentrate on getting more cities and having them contribute :hammers: quickly without a ton of worker turns). Of course, later on its utility takes on some...other...qualities.
     
  12. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Nah...referring to AW. Phil, you know that I know that you know that I know that you know the value of the whip :lol:
     
  13. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Sometimes, however, I feel like there still isn't enough blood on my hands. Their blood.
     
  14. Gwynnja

    Gwynnja Deity

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    This comment deserves a downvote.
     
  15. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    Hey Phil - do you think that nukes make the game much easier? I was just playing a hemispheres game and it got to the modern era, I had my own continent, and Korea had its own continent (I was playing as Babylon), and we were even in tech. I saved the game when I hit assembly line and waited until nukes, I then upped the espionage slider, saw where all his stacks were, obliterated 80% of his military with 4 nukes, and won the war easy.

    So then I went back to the save point and tried to win without nukes...and...wow. First I tried to invade with infantry and artillery, and managed to take a few cities but he got bombers. At that point I lost the air war because I had 3 cities without airports vs his huge airforce and it ground to a stalemate. I probably still could have won by launching the spaceship first but I went back to the save point and waited for carriers. Things went more smoothly at first but once he got stealth bombers I couldn't advance on his cities and once again, the war ground to a long stalemate.

    It seems extremely difficult to invade a continent in the late game without nukes. With bombers, especially stealth bombers, forts for airports, fortified positions, railroad assisted artillery, etc, it seems the defender advantage is incredible. I always fall back on nukes and the AI rarely builds them in any significant number. What do you think?
     
  16. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Nukes only make it slightly easier IMO. You have to get there before the AI starts wandering around with subs/missile cruisers with nukes in random spots, or else the first time you declare war you're going to get slowed down by retaliation unless they have no missionaries/execs/workers inside of cities and pull the turn 1 kill.

    Usually the death knoll of a human victory is one AI going culture and 1-2 more going space and all capable of finishing early-ish. If you don't have the production to do a nigh-on insta kill on each target, nuke retaliation and eventual SDI can slow you down.

    Also it's worth noting that it's quite difficult to get enough :hammers: to put up a good offensive nuke warfare unless you've already had a successful war or are playing terra or something.

    If you want to hose a late game AI without nukes, burn coastal cities and don't even land there or my personal favorite, quickly take 2 cities, turn them into colonies, then quickly liberate every other coastal city you take into a colony and just keep doing that garbage.

    Also note that fighters/jet fighters help a lot against bombers...but heck even SAM with 5 xp can be very useful.
     
  17. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    I'm able to take a coastal city and even hold it, it's the inland cities that are impossible. My carrier jets can't reach far enough to clear the skies and the AI has dozens of jets and bombers blasting any stack that I send forth, and my coastal city only holds 4 fighters anyway. Then when stealth bombers show up it's just ridiculous. Any stack approaching any city gets obliterated. Obviously the AI can't hurt me and can't take back the coastal cities, but I can't move in and take cities from them either. I mean...after a very long grind I might be able to but the war just ends on dragging on forever, like to the year 2000 and beyond.
     
  18. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Ah I see. Jet fighters have long enough reach that it's very rare you can't get intercept coverage from carriers for 80%+ of their cities, although stealth bombers evade them a bit much for my tastes. Probably better is to get there sooner.

    I generally see 1 of 2 scenarios:

    1. AI is huge but only civ on landmass --> probably a runaway, this is the perfect time for nukes or 100% naval invasion warfare with colony abuse and/or razing.

    2. AI is on landmass with any smaller non-vassal civ --> capitulate the weaker AI (heck, you can even land in the big AI's territory if it helps), then treat it more like a land war while using naval units to reinforce.

    It's not THAT different from any other war; the big issue is still their offensive stacks. Don't forget the possibility of AI loading stacks onto ships; you can often kill dozens of units inside of ships in port if you get them the turn you declare! It's quite rare the AI truly masses bombers/stealth bombers. Try to kill off the bombers before they become stealth, even if that means baiting them while your units are still near your carrier fleet. Then, try to deny resources like oil or aluminum.

    Honestly though, nukes do take less thought and are more fun for me to use :D. The larger and more runaway an individual AI is, the less chance you'll care about what anybody else thinks when you blast them to smithereens anyway.
     
  19. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    yeah well I just got a little bored of the fact that every time the game ends with a late game war I end up leaning on nukes. They are a crutch. The AI doesn't know how to use them. I was considering trying to play games without nukes so I could actually play around with units like modern armour, mobile artillery, etc, that I almost never use. The problem is that offensive warfare in that age is so incredibly difficult, and stealth bombers are a big part of the reason why, but not the only reason. The defender advantage, in the age of railroads and mobile artillery, is just enormous. Once you land, your target can throw 60-80% of his forces at you on the very next turn, including hitting you with all his siege weapons and bombers. Your air cover doesn't help against the ground based artillery.

    Actually it's similar to the nonsense that happens in naval warfare. Ships, in the late game, can move something like 7 tiles per turn. So...you could have 20 carriers full of jet fighters, and your opponent could have 20 battleships in harbour. Now, realistically, if he moved his ships out you should be able to sink them with your fighters, but in the game you can't do this. The ships will just come out of port and sink your carriers. It's kind of stupid...in the game I use battleships to defend my fleet, my air power is almost never used to fight naval battles, which makes no sense. So we see the same problem with ground war. The enemy can move in and attack your stacks even though you have air cover, and your air force won't help, because 2 move units can cover more ground in one turn than the range of a jet fighter. I suppose I could counter that by bombing every single rail line...but there can be a railroad on 50% of the tiles in the late game....ugh. It seems one is practically forced to use nukes in the late game, the alternative is just horribly tedious.
     
  20. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Capture mostly coastal city ---> pillage surrounding tile improvements, then rails with mounted or (even better since they have 4 moves to move pillagex2 move) gunships, retreat back into city, rebase your own stealth bombers in there, put your fighters on carriers on intercept, and wait a turn. while your stack is in that city and they literally can't retaliate unless they group up 0 1 move units in their "offensive stack".

    Let's see who has "defender advantage" in a human-AI war then. Or, like I said just sink those 20 battleships and 10 transports in port on the turn you declare and have done. Also, really do your best in these instances to take down either oil or aluminum; most modern military units require both of those and without them they're gimped.
     

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