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Would anyone be interested in helping me create a Balkan wars (1912-1913) scenario?

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Creation & Customization' started by Kyriakos, Mar 30, 2009.

  1. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    Why not just use this one? It would not be overly difficult to resize it or custom create the size you wish for it to be. And is already remarkably, almost exactly similar and identical. :) In fact I saw you on this thread Varwnos way back in 2004! Of course, it may have to be added to up north to fit the other active participants in. I've never made a map, so I'm not sure how good my map making skills would be.

    ottoman-italian%20war.jpg

    odysseus_180.jpg

    Link: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=105962

    In fact, cutting off a portion of the west side of the map to match the above image Ozy has shown would likely do. I will have to bring it up in game to check it out more closely, but looks reasonable. Plus it's nice and big.

    Also, how would the timeframe go in game? Since Weeks is the lowest setting the editor will let you place, that would make the First Balkan War only last around 32 turns (by the time it officially was over). Any way to alter this to extend in game time to a more reasonable amount of at least 100 turns or so? Otherwise, I guess it doesn't really matter too much.

    Tom
     
  2. Ozymandias

    Ozymandias I saw the Great Library burn. Supporter

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    IMHO we should add in Austria-Hungary and therefore need the map extended north as well.

    Also, @Varwnos - would you like to build in the possibility of a second Russo-Turkish war? (Which, in our counter-factual timeline, might very well have triggered WW1.)

    I suggest we cover 1911 - 1914 and not focus on the three individual wars, but rather on a slightly more complex mod (Jeez, my own mod is dying on the vine for lack of time - how did I let myself get seduced by this? :crazyeye: )

    Best,

    Oz
     
  3. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    Well I can give the map a shot at extending that.. of course, I've never made a map before, to bad you can't copy and paste in the Civ3 editor!

    Would these map proportions be good to use?, I think this would be sufficient to cover both wars (or all 3... ):
    View attachment 209399
    Perhaps it wouldn't need to extend that far north though, just enough to include a bit of Russia.
    And not so far to the west, could probably be trimmed a bit on that side also.

    Granted, 1911-1914 would encompass:
    Italo-Turkish War: September 29, 1911 to October 18, 1912.
    First Balkan War: October 1912 to May 1913
    Second Balkan War: June 16, 1913 to July 18, 1913
    Possibility of a Second Russo-Turkish war: Remainder of game until beginning of WW1 October 24, 1914

    Game Time: approx 160 turns

    The problem would be getting civ's to go to peace at approx the correct times. But that can be worked around in various ways.

    Tom
     
  4. Ozymandias

    Ozymandias I saw the Great Library burn. Supporter

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    If we contemplate a possible 2nd Russo-Turkish War, then we'll need to extend to the eastern Russo-Turkish border.

    Best,

    Oz
     
  5. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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  6. Tank_Guy#3

    Tank_Guy#3 Lion of Lehistan

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    I'd have thought Partizanac would be all over this.
     
  7. Ozymandias

    Ozymandias I saw the Great Library burn. Supporter

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    AFAIK Partizanac has been MIA for a couple of months now.
     
  8. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    I like the map in post 23 :) Atlhough if this goes up to ww1 then the second map is better. But it would be tricky to maintain peace until the times the war broke out..
    I think that the scen should begin at the first balkan war, or some turns before it. The european ottoman empire, and greece and serbia, will be at war, in locked alliance. Montenegro and Bulgaria, without being allied, will too be at locked war with the european ottoman empire. We should also include Albania, with one city, since there was an uprising there going on at the same time.
    I bought a book about the history of the region from 1908 (the neo-turk revolution) to 1923, so i will have some ideas to contribute for techs representing historic events, and armies :)
    I think that the main bulk of the armies should be one unit armies, limited in number. Greece had two standing armies at the time of the first balkan war, the larger Thessaly army and the smaller Epirus army. Similarly i can find info on the other nations armies :)
    As for cities, i think we can use my four sets, the german, ottoman, byzantine and italian, and i could make a fifth, russian one.
     
  9. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    The game would have to start out with the countries locked in war according to the First Balkan War, otherwise it gets too complicated to work everything out correctly...
    That sounds good though..

    Serbia and Greece locked in Alliance through whole game (Alliance 1)
    Montenegro (Alliance 2)
    Bulgaria (Alliance 3)
    Ottoman Empire (Alliance 4)

    As you said Alliance 1, 2, and 3 would be in locked war with Alliance 4.

    Now although Ottoman Empire was not totally defeated, but had it's European territories conquered and divided, not sure how to implement this in as far as just letting war go until Ottomans' are completely defeated in game ?.

    But to start the Second Balkan War, a simple sub bug hidden event could be easily enough set up to start the war having Alliance 1 (Serbia and Greece) declaring war on Bulgaria at a specified time into the game. Then as happened, another sub bug would cause Alliance 2 (Montenegro) and Romania to declare war on Bulgaria as well. Historically, Ottoman Empire also intervened against Bulgaria, but not sure how this should be handled (let Ottoman's be completely defeated on map, or let them fight it out throughout the whole game, possibly giving up more territory than just European territories?).

    Of course, if the game starts in 1911, sub bugs would have to be setup to cause all wars, and locked alliances could not be used as readily, so it's probably better to start at beginning of First Balkan War for ease of creation.

    Can't remember, is there a way to have civ's start the game at war with each other that are not in locked alliances at war throughout the whole game? I believe there is, but cannot recall how that is done.. I believe Firaxsis did this on some of their scenarios (not using locked alliances).

    Map Making is quite more difficult than I originally imagined, and am not quite sure how well I would be able to create the additional northern areas of the above map that we need. I could, with time, create a reasonable 'outline' but am not familiar enough with the geography to place appropriate terrain. It would probably take me weeks or more to expand on the very well done Odysseus 180 map shown above, but someone else would need to place appropriate terrain.

    Tom
     
  10. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    I think that the ottoman empire should be split to the european ottoman empire (apart from Constantinople and some parts of thrace) and the rest. The balkan nations will be at locked war with the european ottoman empire, which is set to be totally annexed by them :)
     
  11. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    Good idea, that may be the best way to do it... then in the 2nd Balkan War, the 'Rest of the Ottoman Empire' :) could also be made to declare war on the Bulgarians using a sub bug technique. Depending on how forces are represented on the map (5000 men/1 troop unit or w/e) we could calculate appropriate forces to be available to various nations.

    If we use a bigger map like the odysseus_180 map above, we may need to make each 'troop' represent even a smaller amount than 5000 e.g., otherwise there would be way too much ground, and only a few units running around.

    Example for 2nd BW:
    The army of the Kingdom of Bulgaria had 500,000 men divided into five armies.
    - could be represented by 100 units on map, with units divided into their appropriate armies (on a large map, even 100 units is NOTHING).

    The army of the Kingdom of Serbia accounted for 230,000 men with 500 guns divided into three armies with 10 divisions.
    - this would be only 46 units on map if 5000 men/unit.

    The Kingdom of Montenegro sent one division of 12,000 men under General Janko Vukotić to the Serbian-Macedonian front.
    - this would be 2 units :)

    Just a thought on some type of basis to use, to keep things somewhat consistent, let me know what type of system you think should be used.

    Tom
     
  12. Tank_Guy#3

    Tank_Guy#3 Lion of Lehistan

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    His last activity was March 31, 2009.
     
  13. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    He must have meant he has been Missing in Action for a couple days now. :crazyeye: I may be MIA for about 1 day since I'm now going to sleep!
     
  14. Partizanac

    Partizanac Serbian Ambassador in CFC

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    Hi ppl :) glad to see this project revived, I was just clinically dead :D

    As for my help, well, for now I can add the appropriate terrain to the map @tom2050 is about to create...

    And I can help with some info about Serbia and Montenegro :)

    Question
    Will this Scenario have all units placed and none trough game be created? or all countries will be able to create units as they "wish"?
    Maybe units could be only created trough drafted method?
     
  15. Ozymandias

    Ozymandias I saw the Great Library burn. Supporter

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    Ah. :) (Are you a "Hitchhiker's Guide" fan?) I just assumed you were spending a year legally dead for tax purposes. :D


    Will the AI draft a non-buildable unit? An how would you set this up - or are you thinking of auto-generated units?

    Best,

    Oz
     
  16. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    I think that apart from the main armies, which will be few and historically accurate, the rest of the units should be drafted. But the AI seldom drafts anything, apart from when it is defending a city and then drafts like hell, so i m not sure if this would work.
    An alternative to armies would be seperate units, 100 for bulgaria, fewer for Serbia and Greece, and iirc the ottoman army was not significantly larger than the bulgarian one.
     
  17. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Hi Partizanac. :)

    Im not sure how to represent Albania. They will be very weak, with no armies, only a few drafted units, but unfortunately we cannot present the situation as it was in civ3 terms. Perhaps they could have a pact with Austria and Italy, so that the human player would not attack them, but im unsure if the AI will be aware of the same difficulty in doing so.
     
  18. Partizanac

    Partizanac Serbian Ambassador in CFC

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    @oz I think that only drafted units makes AI not building a bigger army that he already has. But approaching the AI's city, like varw said, they draft like hell :)
    Drafted units make citizen unhappy and they are automatically amateur units :D (-1 hp) so it makes a game more real :)

    Auto-generated units just bug me (donno why)
     
  19. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    Well, units can be made to be conscripts by giving them -1 hp's in the editor. I think it ultimately depends if to draft or let build upon these factors:

    1. How well drafting works, if AI can build no units at all (?), then will it draft often? Being able to build no units at all is not very interesting though. What else will the play build during the game? Libraries? :)

    Workers don't have to be a part in the game, since during this period, it is doubtful masses of roads and mines were built everywhere, therefore it is possible to make the game where each city (human and AI) can build only a unit so often (say Athens can only make a unit every 8 turns, and that unit is a conscript from getting -1 hp's set in the editor). To keep things fair, not all difficulty levels can be selected (so AI doesn't get huge build bonuses).
    Also, since AI does not hardly ever build fortresses, workers would not do well in this fact... pre-placed fortresses such as Silistra fortress can be added.

    There is not likely to be a huge number of units anyways, but if we go the route of havnig a eastern Ottoman Empire (that gets defeated), along with 'the rest of the Ottoman Empire' that declares war in the 2nd Balkan War on Bulgaria, I don't know if they would mass draft units or not.

    Given only 2 or 3 units at most each city may be able to build, and with AI set to play at the 'no bonus' difficulty, it is much more flexible to have AI build appropriate amount of units with building.

    And lastly, it depends on what each unit on map represents.. 2500 troops, 3750, 5000, etc? I think it would have to be at least 5000 or less (since the map is going to be quite large). So an Montenegro unit would simply cost ALOT in shields, since they did not field a large army.

    Just my ideas, let me know what you think! I'll get started on the map, so I will resize/add to map to cover this area below.. is that good? Then I'll had over so you can add Terrain.
    View attachment 209574

    Tom
     
  20. Ozymandias

    Ozymandias I saw the Great Library burn. Supporter

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