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Writeup for 700 AD Deity Space

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by WastinTime, Apr 24, 2013.

  1. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Mitchum, it's totally worth it to save the turns and build Life Support in 1 turn. This is best accomplished by chopping. Two options (there are more) that work great for this task are:

    1) chop down your NatPark (assuming it's not all jungle)

    2) Drop a late game city in the forest. There should be one somewhere. If you play Terra, which is very ideal for space race, you can always find forests in the new world.
     
  2. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    Of course it's worth it if you can pull it off. ;)

    I very often have a few production cities with lumbermilled and railroaded forests in them. I get them to within a turn of having a mine/workshop completed and then "liberate" the forests at the appropriate time without losing any production from citizens working said tiles. However, I've never been able to use this technique to turn the Life Support into a one-turn build since I almost never keep that many forests around in one city.

    Plus, with my tech path, I'd then need a two-turn Stasis Chamber city (IW city should be able to pull this off) and 5 three-turn Casing cities (usually not a problem).

    My National Park city (if I remember to build one :blush:) usually has more jungles than forests. Plus, I pretty much exclusively play SGOTM with a BOTM or two between games, so I don't have the luxury of playing a map of my choosing.

    Doing the math, the Life Support costs 1000H and gets a 100% bonus with copper. Assuming a city has a powered factory (+100%) and a lab (+50%), it takes 1000 / (1 + 250%) = 286H base to finish in one turn.

    On normal speed, at 30H per chop that would be 286/30 = 9.53 forests. Assuming that you can get 46H from Mining Inc and citizens (should be very doable if the forests are converted to workshops), that's 8 forest chops.

    So I guess the real question is: Will those 8 forest chops be more valuable being used to save 1 turn at the end of the game than they would by getting those same forest chops 50 to 100 turns sooner?

    I guess it's not quite that simple because those 8 forests preserved equate to 8 specialists in an NP city. Something to ponder for my next Space game. It will force me to take my lumberjack hat off though... :D

    I'm thinking about trying to get enough people together for a Space Gauntlet in the next BOTM (i.e. the one after SGOTM is over, which should be BOTM 73 starting December 15th). All interested players would take the standard save and play for Space. It should give us all an opportunity to learn from each other (or at least for me to learn from everyone else). I know that Jastrow is in already. It would be great if we could get a dozen more. Interested?
     
  3. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Might be interested in the space gauntlet, but the Holidays might get in the way, and I'm pretty burned out on account of the SGotM right now.

    RE: saving forests...Don't foreget about my suggestion to find some fresh forests like in the 'new world' on Terra? Boreal always has some too.
     
  4. Seraiel

    Seraiel If you want anything from I please ask in German

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    Beating this Spacerace seems to be harder than I first thought.

    This time I played with Gilgamesh again on a small map.

    I had incredible luck when it came to fights, I think I conquered the complete map with less than 30 brave soldiers.

    The last means that I was even able to out-expand WastinTime, who played the Incans!

    Unortunately, I absolutely was not able to understand / capture how he was able to build such an extraordinary economy, because I did everything that was possible, I built max-failgold, I had a tripple-Gold Capital, I captured the Mids as early as someone else built them for me, I got the HGs, I... don't know, everything.

    Result was something like 300 AD Sushi and Mining.

    I have the feeling, that it's simply not possible to compete with a Leader that is FIN with playing someone that has crappy Traits like Giggles does.

    6 cities early with an Axe-rush, ok, with exceptional luck that is possible, but how in the world should it be possible to make up for the benefit of IND Forges or FIN Cottages...

    Beating this game will still take a lot of time, not sure it won't get beaten ever.

    Ah: Achieved victory in 1120 AD for those, who're interested.
     
  5. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    @ Seraiel

    That's still a very good date. :goodjob: I wonder if WastinTime had an advantage playing on a Standard Terra map since it would have way more Sushi and Mining Inc resources...

    Did you play at Marathon speed?

    By the way, I'm not sure that it will be possible for anyone to beat this date but I admire you for trying.
     
  6. Seraiel

    Seraiel If you want anything from I please ask in German

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    Thx Mitchum.

    I'm sure that larger maps actually are an advantage in teching-games, because I observed that the bigger the map, the better the winning date. A mechanic that probably lies behind this, is, that more AIs allow for more trades and tech-trade simply is the greatest increase to human teching-speed.

    Corporations however scale very equally or in favour of smaller maps, that's something that makes up "a little" for the better trading opportunities that huge maps come with.

    But what I talked about, actually was something completely different:

    What I achieved, was, that I built an empire that was larger than the one WastinTime had, and I did it with Gilgamesh, which I assume is actually fantastic and almost unbelievable, but the interesting thing is, that I believe that WastinTime really did tell the truth when he said that achieving a Spacerace like this would be possible with a non-Incan CIV.

    He didn't tell, that it takes unbelievable amounts of luck, but what I experienced in my latest game, was, that unbelieavble luck + great effort + being a "Professor of CIV" still isn't enough.

    I could post savegames for those that are interested, Savegames showing that I out-expanded WastinTime, that proove that I came very very very close to the timeline he set (like Education only 20T behind him) , that I built an empire that was imo was compareable or even better than his one, but then...

    I just couldn't fuel the research.

    I really, really worked for the economy in my game. I built all Wonders that were possible, multiple times if possible, I converted Forrests into Failgold as much as possible, I stole 15 workers, I conquered the Mids as early as they were even available to me, I focussed Great Person production, played fully awake...

    !

    I went through pain and sacrificed sleep for the game that I played, still my best wasn't good enough, and that even with all the good things that I mentioned.

    I hoped that I would at least score in the category of WastinTime and the game of Ironhead, a game of which I 'til today think that it was played 100% "clean" , so without cheating, reloading or whatever, but:

    In some sort that I don't understand, WastinTime was able to keep up his research the complete time, so not only 'til Education but also from Educatioin 'til Sushi and Mining.

    It's unfortunately not possible to really take a look at how he did that, because Wastin always only uploads the starting and the end save, but doesn't submit intermediate files. I looked at the end-save, saw that he built a heavy hammer-economy and that he saved at every end where it was possible, even at Worker-numbers, some of the tiles his cities are working aren't even improved, OK!

    I did all of that too. I captured and conquered my enemies fast and with almost no force(s) , I had great cities, Mids, Hanging Gardens, bulbed Education, I even got the Academy in my game that WastinTime didn't and I even managed to create the GPs for the 4-GP-GA, but:

    WastinTime launched his Spaceship in T440, I in T494 (!!!) !

    :hmm:

    When I now think...

    Being 20T behind Wastin in T280 are 10%, being 50T behind in T500 are again 10%...

    [,,,]

    Re-read what he wrote in the writeup... He had Currency T155, mine was T171... He had Civil Service T194, me T215...

    I had Math at the same time than he did...

    So was the difference between the 2 games really just Mansa picking Currency (mine researched Construction) and WastinTime getting Oracle, and those 2 advantages just multiplied over time again and again and again and again and again?

    If it were like that, this would actually be a really amazing and truely awesome discovery, because it would mean that one could throw away all games in which one misses Oracle. One simply would have to learn how to play the inital phase of the game (something like T150) faster and without errors, and then somehow take the best out of all games played up to that point and from that point on onwards make sure to not fall back and do everything to keep up with the pace...
     
  7. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Of course it compounds... especially for a hammer economy since the moment you have the good technologies (beaker being the limiting factor), everything equalizes.

    Inca manages to expand very early and that also makes a big difference... those early pop-turns are worth so much...

    Anyway, good luck ;)
     
  8. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Go with Liz. You get the huge PHI advantage over the Incans and still get FIN.
    IND trait is not that big a deal. To maximize the PHI advantage, get a very very early Academy and bulb Education. Maybe even double-bulb it. That way, if you were 20T behind the Incans on the way to Edu, you instantly catch up.
     
  9. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Out-expanding my Inca game can be done, as you've demonstrated. However, this may be your problem. The Inca are infamous for their ability to expand quickly, and you probably can't out-expand them if they're set to the goal of rapid expansion. However, I don't use the Inca this way. Too much early expansion will kill your economy. I don't build a Quechua for at least 15 turns, sometimes 30. I grow first. I also slow expansion before Currency.
     
  10. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    I'd have to look, but I may have killed some workers near the end. I usually get plently of stolen workers, so the numbers shouldn't be low.

    I'm curious what cities you were looking at that were working unimproved tiles. I can probably explain that. It might be that they had late forests chopped the final turns, etc.
     
  11. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    I would agree that one of the other fin civs could compete with inca - I would think that Darius, Liz or Willem would be competitive.
     
  12. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    Getting to corporations and either or both of Sid's Sushi and/or Mining Inc as early as possible should lead to an extremely early Space Colony Victory. You don't need to get The Oracle, but if you don't you need to trade or steal the technology the AI got from it as soon as possible. More important is getting paper and education as early as possible. A great National Park may be a great single city boost that helps the Sid's Sushi expansion, if not going exclusively Mining Inc.

    I don't believe that luck is much of a factor as leveraging the luck one does get. Its a game of adoptation to the situation. Skill at adopting to the game is what rewards one with the earliest possible win. Even Gilgamesh can be utilized to do it, though he may not be the best leader for a Space Colony Victory. Charlemagne with his Rathaus economy may be competitive.

    I agree that outside of Huayna Capac, Elizabeth is probably the best leader to use based on traits. These different leaders will require different strategies.

    Great SC date Seraiel!

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  13. Seraiel

    Seraiel If you want anything from I please ask in German

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    STW actually caught something there...

    My Mining / Sushi date was extremely bad compared to WastinTime's.

    I wondered at that time, how he could reach Sushi so fast from Education, as I had to run multiple turns at 0% back then because I lacked seriously Gold for Research.
     
  14. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    Perhaps it was at least partially due to Gilgamesh's lack of the financial trait that made it virtually impossible to match WastinTime Sid's Sushi and Mining Inc date.

    Gilgamesh probably needs a slightly different path to a SC victory as well. Some espionage (including a small amout of slider - enough to steal a key technology or two) may be used to leverage his cheap 3/4 price "courthouses" and 1/2 price walls/castle (+25% espionage) and running nationhood (+25% espionage and drafting). I'm not sure whether you did any of the above or not. I'm not even sure what investments in espionage will pay off in an earlier SC win date.

    Feeding technologies to the AI and indirectly leading their research in the direction you want early on would be a key component to any strategy for an extremely early SC victory, at least until the AIs research too slowly to help. No doubt you were doing that; I'm just saying that for some others reading this thread.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  15. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    The next BOTM will be starting soon. Anyone interested in a Space Colony gauntlet? WT posted an impressive Culture date in the last one. I'm hoping that he plays this one too so that we can all learn from him... :mischief: ... and you too, Kossin, STW and Saraiel and AT (the only posters that I can see in my current view of this thread)l! :D The more the merrier!!
     
  16. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Anyone subsribed to this thread needs to check out this gauntlet....
     

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