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Writeup for 700 AD Deity Space

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by WastinTime, Apr 24, 2013.

  1. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    550 AD spaceship launch, 700 AD victory.

    Deity, Marathon, Standard size, Terra

    I used Inca, but don't stop reading!
    I honestly believe that many civs (possibly any civ) can meet the important milestones.
    The quechua are great at fast conquest, but that will wreck your game. You need to start slower.

    It's just a ~6 city "empire" in the first ~120 turns. (An axe rush could meet that timeline.)
    Build 5 wonders.
    Triple size to ~18 cities by turn 200.
    Triple that to ~50 cities by turn 300.

    Here's a closer look at what happened this game:

    Start location: (not spectacular) 5 flood plains, a cow and 2 gold

    (t12 - t24) Grab 3 workers from 3 AI.

    Here my capital in yellow, surrounded by my first 3 victims.
    I picked lincoln (orange) first because he has a gold (not that I can use it for a long time :(
    and because he has a lot of forests.



    World War I

    (t48 - t77) I capture the 5 cities that I will keep.
    Two more are conquered and given away for later re-capture.

    (t96) Note: Hammurabi builds Stonehenge and has Holy cities. Conquer him after he gets a shrine...which he does 138 turns later.

    Research
    Mining, Wheel, Pottery, Writing...
    (t105) Alphabet (free bronze, etc.) - Start pre-chopping.

    *New Strategy for me.
    Alpha allows me to drag everyone into war against DeGaulle.
    I let him live as long as possible to share war diplo bonuses.
    This helps make up for all the negatives for "declaring war on our friend"

    In the screenshot:
    Roosevelt (blue) and Peter (red) are left alive, but crippled. Holding cities I can't afford to keep yet.
    Here you can see Mansa (gold) to my SW and Darius (light blue) to the NW. Darius has horses, so I leave him alone.
    I decide to trek my whole army way up north to DeGaulle (dark purple) since he appears to have no metal/horses and he's great to pick on.



    (t111) I need to capture one more expensive (distant) city because it has marble.

    (t116) Math
    This is the key tech to allow chops to be completed.
    You must not over-expand to keep research moving until this point.
    Next stop is Machinery/Civil Service (for macemen), then Education (oxford)


    Wonders

    (t134) Oracle MC (Mansa was already on Currency).

    Over the next ~40 turns, I chop the usual wonders (G.Lighthouse, Pyramids, Hanging gardens, MoM),
    but I skip Colossus this time. I was nice for high score on B&S map, but this is Terra.
    Much later, I build Notre Dame figuring I'd need happiness badly with sushi and whipping, but it was not necessary.

    This makes me think that the IND trait isn't very special for this game. I think Liz with PHI might be best.

    (t155) Finally get Currency free

    (t177) Went for machinery after MC again because Mansa is researching CoL for me

    *New Strategy for me
    (t180) I've always waited for macemen to start WWII, but realized that is too slow.
    I start a sword war to take out one more fresh AI and clean up the AI that I left barely alive.

    (194) Civil Service. I build up some cash and upgrade a couple Macemen.
    I'll have Construction free soon and build cats + more maces

    (t203) Paper. Peace. I now have 18 cities. (I built 3 settlers)

    Darius was closest and the only western neighbor I planned to attack, so it seemed like the right time to take his land.



    (t214) 1360BC - Education (I use a GS to bulb half--as usual. I like Oxford)
    I never even was able to get a GS for an Academy in my capital. If only I had the PHI trait instead of IND.
    I turn off research until Oxford is complete.

    (t217 - t297) I use my Macemen and cats to go on a rampage to the east. I go after 3 AI and capture 27 more cities in 80 turns.
    I want all wars done and be close to the domination limit before sushi.

    Eternal peace.
    Recently, I had gotten Biology free (t277) 730BC - from Liberalism,
    and I picked up Communism (t290) for State Property and Kremlin.

    My Empire stops ~10% short of domination. I figure there are border expansions and a couple New World cities I'll need yet.
    I keep Asoka and Fred alive in order to give back cities if I get too close to domination. As it turns out, I never get that close and keep everything.



    (t308) Medicine.

    I go for Steel (Ironworks and leads to Railroad) and delay Sushi -- because Mansa will get me Corporation free.

    (t315) 350 BC Sushi.

    I produce execs in 1 turn by whatever means possible. Sometimes whip with 0/200, or use overflow, or quite often chop the last forests around.
    I also try to make sure they can travel to a city in need in that same 1 turn.
    I work my high-food, Globe Theatre city hard.

    (t330) 200 BC Railroad. Mining Inc
    Now that the wave of sushi execs has moved across the continent, I start the next wave of mining execs.
    Each wave takes ~25 turns--but they overlap...so starting at t315 there was about 40 turns total for corp spread.

    (t339) The last tech I really need ASAP is Assembly Line (factory+ coal plants)
    I turn off research to pay for corp expansion and build up cash. I'm waiting for free Physics from Mansa.
    This is probably the last tech I'll get free. Maybe Rifling yet. I will have built up so much cash,
    and my corp-fueled empire's research will explode by then.

    (t361) Finally Physics free

    *New ground. I've never done a space race with this size empire and both corporations, so I'm winging it.
    However, the game practically plays itself from here.
    I decide that refrigeration is not needed at all, but I want Superconductors (for labs).
    So I go the long way thru Plastics and Computers, but my research is so fast, I get there...
    (t378) Superconductors

    (t384) Rocketry. Build Apollo fast in the Ironworks city.

    (t403) 515 AD. Ecology. Research is complete !

    Here's where I didn't plan properly. I could have planned better and launched in 5-6 turns instead of 7.
    Or, if I'd planned really well and saved a couple more forests from way back, I could probably do ~3 turns or less from tech complete to launch.

    (t410) 550 AD. Launch!

    Click End Turn 30 times.
     
  2. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    Nicely done.

    I never play Marathon so it's hard for me to come to grips with T200 being 1500 BC because at Normal speed the game is nearly over by then. I know that warring and corporate spread is much more efficient at Marathon than Normal. Is there anything else? What date do you think this game would have been on Normal speed?

    Education in 1360 BC is nuts. I'm usually gunning for that a bit after 1 AD... Plus 2 corporations in the BCs is unheard of for me.

    EDIT: What would your equivalent guidelines be for 6, 18 and 50 cities on Normal speed?

    Again, nice work. :goodjob:
     
  3. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    The biggest thing is that unit costs are only doubled instead of tripled (for a reason that's never been clear to me.) So a warrior is only 30 hammers and even Execs are only 200 hammers. (should be 45 and 300).

    Good timing on your questions. I just played an unofficial (non-HoF) normal speed game along with others to compare strategies. The wasn't perfectly ideal (barbs on, no huts or events, small size, etc.) I played a bit more strangely than the others. I ran only 2 cities (instead of 6) for phase one which was up to about 1500 BC.

    I could have had Education 900BC with a GS bulb, but I went for Academy.

    450BC: Oxford was up! and I had 12 cities.

    My inexperience on normal speed showed after oxford, and I was a bit too slow expanding.

    On a slightly better map, my goals would be: 25 cities by 1AD. Then as many cities as possible up to 10% short of the domination limit (~50 cities) by the time you reach Corporations. Turn 135 (500AD) is a good target.
    Launch goal: turn 170 (1100 AD)
    1200AD victory.

    The full details are here : http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=490952
     
  4. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    BC Sushi and Mining Inc. is insane!

    I've never managed either.
     
  5. VSarius

    VSarius Warlord

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    That's...insane
     
  6. kovacsflo

    kovacsflo scientist

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    It is indeed an impressive game, well done, Wastintime :) That will strengthen your position on quattromasters, even if my new submission will be accepted which is a 1788AD space colony in epic/huge/deity.

    Your game reminds me to my 740 AD cultural game, which was still played by Huayna in deity/marathon. It allows so many cities early on, you just need to prevent overexpansion at the beginning - once you have discovered pottery and have enough workers to build cottages, you can reach like 100 bulbs/turn early on. And of course gold mines help you a lot as well. Since I aimed a cultural victory, marble and stone was more important.

    Anyway I don't really like to use corporations, I prefer state property. Partly because I am a communist, but the cheap upkeep cost for cities and the food bonus for watermills and workshops seems more useful.
     
  7. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    I haven't explored the state property route, but I know it can work as well and even better on some setups.

    I don't think it help my QM score much since it was only on Standard size.
     
  8. UnforcedError

    UnforcedError Settler

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    Great game, WastinTime, and thanks for the writeup :goodjob:

    :eek::eek::eek::aargh::blush::hide:
     
  9. Murky

    Murky Deity

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    How do you conquer Hammy with Queches or did you wait for Axes/Swords?
     
  10. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Iirc, quechuas didn't last long. Darius needed swords and Hammy,etc. were maces.
    You can check the log for when I got machinery. I Beelined it early
     
  11. Murky

    Murky Deity

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    I thought it had to be something like that since if a Bowman is fortified on a hill in a city the Quechua has <1% of winning that fight. You could waste a stack of them trying to do that.
     
  12. Don Toh

    Don Toh Chieftain

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    Most impressive

    Did you reaserch math yourself or were lucky to trade it?
    Anyway very fast Oracle and mids
    I'd tried to follow your game but i failed. Couldnt get math and the rest so fast, AIs didnt want to trade me masonry, poly or priesthood.
     
  13. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    I get math myself, as always. It's critical to not let your economy collapse before Alpha, math. the early conquest gold is essential to support that.

    You usually need Mansa to get poly, priest, especially masonry. I often do priest myself
     
  14. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    I just wanted to say, that this game lastest 111 (!) h, and no matter if you played Incans or not, it is a tremendous achievement. It beats the time Ironhead scored in a game, that you said, can not be replicated.

    It is, and probably will be, the #1 Space Colony game for a long time.

    TY for the Writeup on it. I find it amazing, how well you seem to know where you stand WastinTime .

    Seraiel
     
  15. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    This follows the logic "you don't always know where you stand, until you know that you won't go away" , from the Metal-Band "Slipknot" .

    WastinTime is the one knowing about timelines, so he always knows exactly, if his game is worth playing further, if "he's in time" , "late" , or "if the game is good" .

    He's also right about many other things.

    What he's saying in the beginning, basically is, that a normal (non-Incan) Civ could meet the timeline of his game, and although I regard him as the best, of the best, of the best (so "teh best" , to use internet language) , there's one thing, on which I don't have an answer:

    Wastin!

    Me AND my girlfriend, tried to gang up this time, and played a map, that was beyond the darkest evil. I'm a really good player, you know that, and I promise you, that she, is on my lvl. I promise even further towards you, that she and me (so we) , are an unbeatable team, if playing together.

    We played near flawless, and managed to get a lot of the technological milestones that you mention. However, there were things, that were impossible to us, main thing being, that it was impossible for us to match the numbers of cities, and this, throughout the whole game. This forced us, to divert a lot more ressources to war, then you needed in your game. It was still so close, that we barely managed to win the first wars, and finally were about 500y late, towards your Victory, which shows that you played another type of game.

    I've attached 4 saves, in chronological order. The start itself, can be found in "The Awesome Starts Collection" , in case you want to play it. Plz take yourself a short time, and tell us what you think about them, but also the things I tell.

    Regards,

    Seraiel
     

    Attached Files:

  16. Murky

    Murky Deity

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    I'm not able to open the save file from hof.
     
  17. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    You are probably missing the correct version of the HoF module. You will need the BUFFY module for BtS.

    If that's not it, please post the error message displayed when the save file fails to load.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  18. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    2000 BC: Looks ok, but I see several problems. Not necessarily mistakes, but just things that aren't going well (bad luck.) You're playing Darius (good choice) so you will expand slower during this first 150 turns. That is not one of your problems. It's fine. You are supposed to catch up with Immortals movement speed. Expansion doesn't matter until after currency. Which leads me to your problems.

    I see you're having a problem getting currency. Not only did you not take it with the Oracle (I thought we agreed that was essential), but I see you and Mansa are both now researching it. I also see he is doing it too slowly for you. Your game's Mansa is hurting you.

    It seems that you Oracle'd construction. You shouldn't need to bombard cities this early. Your Immortals should still be fine on their own and they move faster. You're killing the advantage Darius has by making them wait for cats.

    You are attacking a city on a hill early in the game. That should be done only if you really want that city.
    (more bad luck: Peter has 3 cities on a hill :(

    That particular city doesn't have gold, gems, cottages, food, etc. in the first 9 tiles. It is probably a good Great Lighthouse city, but other than that, it's pretty bad before the first border pop. Luckily it has your religion, so the borders pop in 30 turns at least.

    More bad luck: the AI didn't settle any of the three gold tiles (yet).

    Good: you captured a shrine city already! Bad: You didn't get a free shrine.
     
  19. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    You're also going to have trouble matching my timeline, and certainly can't match my city count when you're only playing on Small. There aren't enough AI so you can't get as many free cities and still have Mansa + others to get free tech from and have trade route bonuses. Darius is best when he can cover a larger area with his movement bonus. Expansion from t150 - t250 should wipe out everyone except Mansa. Let me check the next save...
     
  20. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    1000 BC (turn 250):

    Oh my, you've only captured 4 more cities in 100 turns! This is the section where Darius should have grabbed 20 cities. Now your army is all elephants and maces, etc. It looks like you didn't get any mileage out of the Immortals. People have conquered Large and Huge maps with those.

    You've got the Pyramids, but you're not running Rep, you're in Police state.

    I got Education turn 214. You haven't even hardly started on it and it's turn 250 already. I'm not sure I understand which milestones you've set for your goals.
     

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