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Writeup for 700 AD Deity Space

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by WastinTime, Apr 24, 2013.

  1. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    1 AD: (t350)

    Your wars should have ended ~t300 (on a standard map) probably earlier for Small. You need a huge stable empire complete before corporations. Speaking of corps, I aim to spread both Sushi and Mining by 1 AD.

    You don't have any island cities! This is especially painful when you're running Merc.

    You have way too much cash! Hold on. No, you can never have too much cash. The problem is you're not using enough cash. You're only using -55 gpt at 100% research. If you had ~40 cities, you'd see 2000-3000 beakers instead of only 1000. You should be burning 100's of gold per turn.

    It mostly boils down to one thing: faster conquest. That gives you the gold to fuel research and then dozens of cities cause beakers to explode.
     
  2. Murky

    Murky Deity

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    This is the version of Buffy that I'm using. It flashes up the error "Load Failure" then exits before I can grab a screenshot.

    Spoiler :
     
  3. Seraiel

    Seraiel If you want anything from I please ask in German

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    Maybe you're using some modified files (like i. e. from BULL) .

    Will answer to WastinTime later.

    Just for now: You're right about the research, Wastin, you're right with most of your Conclusions about the game, but you're forgetting about the :hammers: . It's true, that the expansion-rate of Incans is too high, to result in an instant advantage in Research, Research begins after Currency, that's true. It's also true, that the map we played was not 100% perfect, as there were many hills-cities. Bad luck is also true, there was nothing we could have done about the Shrine, or Mansa going Currency so we had to Oracle Construction.

    What you're seeing very clear, is, that we didn't get the most out of Immortals, and that's true and false. We did get the most out of the Immortals we had, but going from one city, with Immortals costing twice as much as Quechuas, and with many many more important factors, like i. e. Incans being able to build the Quechuas early (when there are not important buildings available) , stealing the workers (and then chop-rushing) , getting the gold from conquest (when it's needed) , a big difference builds up. One can basically say, that Incans simply synergize extremely well with the settings, despite of being very powerful.

    What's really wrong though, are imo your pictures about Axe-Rushes or wars with Immortals. I admit, that I don't have your experience, but there are simple things, that make me not want to trust what you say, and that is i. e. that "an Axe-Rush could meet the number of cities" . Even though that alone might be true, it's not the whole truth, truth would be, that to pull of an Axe-Rush meeting the number of cities you had with Incans at that time, one would have had to go "all in" , sacrificing the later developement. It's similar with Conquest by Immortals, it's true that it is possible, but the cost of it, is simply a lot higher (and the momentum even worse, if compared to Quechuas, as already stated) .

    There is simple math behind this, like i. e. an Axe being only slightly stronger then a Quechua, but costing more than twice as much. Immortals are somewhere "just below par" with Quechuas, but they require to research Animal Husbandry, something you skipped, and this could have very well been exactly the difference, between you being able to save some Forrests for math again (more hammers) , or being able to research Pottery (getting a Granary for the saved hammers, giving you even more hammers, and, get Cottages on top) , and that maybe assured you to be first to Alpha, and get Bronze-Working free (gain of saved Research resulting in hammers and research, combined with lower costs, higher efficiency, greater synergy and better timing) .

    Seraiel :>
     
  4. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    It looks like you manually researched currency anyway, so why did you 'have' to Oracle Construction? That's a tech that you should get for free in trade anyway, so maybe you shouldn't have even bothered building the oracle at all.

    I don't need to tell you Currency the key. With tech for gold, resources for gpt, and building wealth, you can support an army of immortals. Just send a couple out early to knock out the metals and steal workers.

    While we're talking about workers...did you build a warrior to steal a couple? Darius' biggest problem is that he starts with a scout. Maybe you'd have better luck with War Chariots (to get the starting Warrior) But again, you don't really need the 2 movement units on Small size.

    At this map size, I'm not big on building a shrine. Especially not as the first Great Person. (Academy would be better). You will likely be able to capture a shrine later in the game and switch religions.
     
  5. Seraiel

    Seraiel If you want anything from I please ask in German

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    Hope you're just practicing critique and that you're not pissed of, because I take an opposing position, my mentor ;)

    I know, that taking Construction from Oracle was, and almost always is a mistake. I know exactly, that I found a reason for it to do so in that round though, may have been that I had to make a blind-pick, or that I just saw Mansa researching it at that turn, and thought "well, I need Elephants anyway on this map, if I want to have a fair chance at conquering it" .

    What you must not underestimate, is, that Elephants are way more powerful, and that it was already really hard to conquer the map with them. It might be, that Immortals would have had a chance if used like you said (so for choking) various AIs and not allowing them to get Metals, but I don't think, that there ever was a chance for that, as the war against Lizzy already took everything, Peter had Hills-cities, and you know how fast Deity-AIs tech towards Longbows.

    I admit though, that choking aswell as Worker-stealing is a weak spot of my game. It's extremely powerful, and I always try, but often enough, the AI I try at, has Metals hooked before my Warrior even reaches them, or they're creative and their workers don't show up at the outer ring's tiles, or, their land has many Forrests, and I have not only to search their Workers, but to also follow them sometimes, and once they begin chopping, I think twice about it, as AI in war builds up just so many Forces. I know, lure them on the open field, but that doesn't help, if 5 Archers have the order to defend the city, and 5 Archers take a lot of Immortals.

    Getting the Shrine with the 1st GP also wasn't planned, but product of GP-Pollution by Oracle. I could decide, to either get the GS in time with CS, or having to wait 12-15 turns, and often enough, I succeed with taking chances.

    The point I wanted to make, was, that Incans just have an extreme synergy with the game, and the timeline, resulting in a lot more hammers. These hammers allow for World-Wonders like the one's you built (imo the only really important one's, besides Kremlin later) . Those World-Wonders allow for an Economy, that's beyond what normal empires can do. I just tried to build the GLH with Cathy in a game on epic-speed, it was impossible! I only rexed to 2 cities, researched only BW + Sailing, 2pop-whipped the Lighthouse with max-OF and chain-chopped with 3 Workers afterwards, still I got beaten (1900 BC) . Next game, I tried for Pyramids and / or Oracle, both went 2400 BC (never seen Mids at that time, but De Gaulle builds them really often in my latest games) . I'd maybe have had a chance at both of them, if they would have gone later, but not without crippling my whole expansion.

    I'm just playing a game with Catherine again, where there were no chances at stealing Workers, no chances at any Wonder, and even though I divert the grand part of my Ressources to expansion and development, I have 6 cities, while the AI have up to 9. There wouldn't have been even a chance to build either an army, or to have more cities, or even Wonders without sacrificing something really important, and this is just where the Incans are impossible to beat.

    They don't build a Worker, they begin with Quechuas -> City grows
    Then the Quechuas steal the Workers, the city has already grown -> Instant :hammers: + :commerce:
    They then conquer an AIs capital, saving them the need to build a Settler, and getting a really really good location at 3300 BC. A normal Civ takes until 3000 BC 'til they can produce their first Settler, and it'll be in a medicore Location. The new city will also not be size 4 and rock from the start, but be size 1.
    Even if one has begun on stealing Workers at that time with the normal Civ, the Incans have simply killed their target already, while it had only 2 Archers / city. The initial Worker costed something, the city is smaller, Immortals are more expensive (this is without rexing to a 2nd city, so Darius, for "totally normal Civs" , it's even worse) , they reach their targets later -> more defending Archers -> less time to produce troops from the conquered city / less troops in general due to higher losses and lower hammer-efficiency.

    I hope, I made it clear this time, what I mean. I'm not trying to push this game down, it's absolutely brilliant, but there is no Civ as powerful as Incans on Marathon Settings. Even on the best map and with pristine play, a normal Civ will never be able to make up for the things I mentioned.

    If you think different, please either tell, or show, because I know you're the best, but I've become quite good too, and we're either talking of 2 different things, or your using tactics I'm unaware of, and that I need and want to know!

    S.
     
  6. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    I certainly not mad. I'm enjoying the discussion. Maybe this isn't the right thread for discussing Darius/Immortal strategy. I know non-Inca civs can break 800AD. Probably 600's is doable. I would chose Liz. I'll put that game on my list. Maybe some day I'll get around to it.

    I'll address war in general since your wars don't sound very efficient. You might need to learn a lot of new tricks when it comes to conquest. You mentioned 5 archers! That should not happen (you should not let that happen). Here is a list of some things you might not be aware of to handle this problem:

    - The AI should only defend with 2 archers and can even use just one archer if it's on a hill.

    - If you're seeing a build-up to 3-4 archers, that probably means a settler is coming. Wait for the settler to leave with a 2 archer escort.

    - You need to make peace and back-stab them! so they don't build up defenders.

    - You need to get out of the BFC. Don't slowly build up a stack in their land. Clear out and come in all at once.

    - Lure archers out of the city. One way to do that is with an empty city nearby.

    - Another great lure is to give them a city. They're sure to send defenders to that 0% defense non-hill tile for slaughter.

    - Stopping them rushing defenders (whipping)
    a) bribe them out of slavery
    b) use a spy to switch them out of slavery
    c) if they're not in slavery (but might switch to it) Bribe them to make any civic change. Then they can't switch again for a while.
    d) Bribe a civic change to put a non-spiritual civ in Anarchy.

    - Stop their chopping. Attack the city from several directions to interrupt workers that are chopping (and/or just steal the workers).

    Those are just the ones off the top of my head. There is much to learn if you're going to conquer with a lean, mean skeleton army like I prefer.
     
  7. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    First, assume the save file is corrupted. Delete it and download the save again.

    If you have the same problem and use MS Windows 7, please use the documented fixes on the HoF pages. Failing that report your issue to the HoF mod or HoF BUFFY threads; the HoF staff or fellow players will try to help you.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  8. Don Toh

    Don Toh Chieftain

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    Yeah, the problem is Mansa got alpha himself so i had no too many trade options ;-)
    You researched math incredibly fast... libray build +2 GS? or just conquest gold?

    Did you use fail gold?

    Here is an interesting save for those interesting in:
    View attachment Hua_Dei_Sta_Ter_Mar_Anc_4000-BC_Tem_Med_Jun-14-2013_13-16-07_815_258.CivBeyondSwordSave

    Here Mansa also failed me with researching aplha, a lot depends on luck here, i also got apha turn 105 without lucky mining from a hut ;-)
     
  9. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Not sure when my library came in, but that was probably involved. Definitely not a GS.
     
  10. pomthom

    pomthom Drive & Reverb

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    Very impressive game WastinTime :goodjob:

    I've just tried my first Sushi game in the last BOTM (Churchill / Normal / Standard size / Prince lol) and went for Space with the Mining Inc combo.

    Spoiler in case anyone reading is intending to play the BOTM 72 :crazyeye:
    Spoiler :
    The game wasn't carved out for it I guess since I was virtually isolated and the difficulty being Prince I had to literally self-tech the entire tech tree. But my Corp bonuses were decent (~+20 :food: and ~+13/14 :hammers:) so that's why I thought "hey let's try Sushi space and learn something!".

    Anyway I didn't get a good date (1816 AD) and I suspect I did a lot of things sideways. I basically REXed peacefully and not-so-peacefully to ~40 cities (no small islands), beelined Medicine (self-teched, I saved Lib until the last possible moment and picked AL) then paused to spread Sushi and went space techs starting with Supraconductors for early Labs


    My first question: how does growth VS running specialists timing work? (EDIT: especially with many coastal cities, typical of a Sushi game)

    In my game I think I ran a little too many specialists too early when Sushi started to spread. Also I got a bit confused in my civics: you obviously need Slavery to spread Sushi, but also to whip out infra in your new cities. At what point do you switch to Caste/Rep? I think I switched too early because I also needed the GPs to fuel my back-to-back GAs.

    Second question: what is a good Sushi economy?

    I improvised completely here. Apart from 2 heavy cottaged cities having all :science: multipliers (including my cap with OX) and my Shrine / Corp HQs / Wall Street city, my other cities ran Merchants (because they benefited from the :gold: multipliers I had built in preperation of Sushi) and built Research when my instincts actually told me to do the other way around. :confused: I also tried to maintain my :science: slider as high as possible with all the Merchants paying for the Sushi maintenance. Is this a good way of proceeding?

    I could post some saves + screenshots but I doubt that particular game would be a good base for analysis...

    Peace!
     
  11. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    1. Growth is the key. Ideally, use wars that allow you to capture lots of free cities. You keep your core Oxford + university cities focused on research, but keep expanding to the domination limit as fast as possible.

    2. The best way to pay for sushi is to pair it with Mining Inc. But yea, running merchants is a good way to bridge from Sushi to Mining.

    You should not build research. It's better to build wealth and run a higher research slider. Typically you try to get your cash from conquest, losing wonders (aka failgold), trading tech, trading resources, and building wealth. If you do that, you run 100% research and you don't build Markets/Grocer/Banks.
     
  12. pomthom

    pomthom Drive & Reverb

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    Ok. So basically not so very different from a non-Sushi approach :crazyeye:

    I see it a bit clearer now.

    1. Bee-line CS/Education while expanding as much as your economy allows it (through war and settling)

    2. Bee-line Medicine & Corporations. Possibly Lib > Medicine then research Communism for cheap Kremlin whips. If necessary to Lib before Medicine, make the Communism detour to build Kremlin even before the 1st exec

    3. Tech Railroad while spreading Sushi like there's no tomorrow (and paying for the empire in any way you can, running Merchants included). Spread Mining and build wealth

    4. Grow cities to happy cap then run Scientists while going for space techs​

    Does that sound OK? It sounds a lot less simpler than how I tried it out that's for sure :crazyeye: :lol:

    How much production cities do I need to prepare for spaceship parts?
     
  13. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    All of your cities are production cities when you have mining ;). Be sure to beeline AssemblyLine after Mining Ing for factory/coal plants.
     
  14. pomthom

    pomthom Drive & Reverb

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    LOL I know but how many should get Labs? :mischief:
     
  15. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Ah, that's easy. Obviously, your top 5 production cities get one. Then...

    You first need to know approx. when you plan to finish research (launch). This allows you to calculate whether the research boost from the Lab makes it worth building. Often it is not worth it, but certainly your calculation will show that it belongs in your cottages cities and other big researchers.

    So just make sure the hammers that go into it don't exceed the amount of beakers it adds.

    For this game, I only had 25 turns between Labs and research end (on marathon speed), so that might be only 10 turns on Normal. It's hard to get a lab to pay back in that time.
     
  16. Seraiel

    Seraiel If you want anything from I please ask in German

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    I remember that Laboratories already pay back with building 1 SS-part in the city, so build 16 Laboratories because there are 16 SS-parts.
     
  17. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    Depending on how quickly I'm teching, I will often build more than one part in several cities with my IW city sometimes building 3 or more. So I think how many labs you need is situational.
     
  18. Seraiel

    Seraiel If you want anything from I please ask in German

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    I'm thinking you're doing something that's not optimal Mitchum. With the research path that I took in my game (which I got from WastinTime ) most of the SS-parts came online simultaniously because we don't tech Rocketry first, so Apollo needs some time. Also, the Engines are what makes an SS-build slow, so it's faster to build Research in all cities and tech to Fusion as fast as possible and only then begin on building the SS simultaniously I think.
     
  19. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    I also build multiple parts in my best cities. I usually scatter most of the Casings and thrusters around. And you don't have to have a Lab to build a casing.

    @Seraiel: There is no way a Lab can pay back the cost of the Lab with just one part?! Show me the math on that (not using an engine :p)
     
  20. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    In the end game of my Space victories, I usually get Superconductors fairly early. I build Labs in any of my top science cities that will benefit the most from the 25% boost (usually 1 to 3 cities for me). I then build them in my top 5 to 8 production cities (or as many as I plan to use to build parts). To WastinTime's point, I've never done the math to see if the labs pay for themselves from a hammer AND beaker perspective in my production cities but I'd guess that it's close since the cities get some benefit from the 25% science boost and I usually build 2+ parts in each city. For cities with low commerce that only build a Casing, the Lab probably doesn't make sense but I build it anyway.

    At Normal speed (I don't have much experience at Epic or Marathon), if you're researching one tech per turn, then the limiting factor to victory is the spaceship build, not research or even tech path as far as I can figure. The trick is to build the last part you open up via research (the Life Support which is opened up by Ecology for me) as quickly as possible and then to have all of the other parts finish on that turn or sooner. I've often finished the Life Support in 2 turns but never in 1 turn. I always build it in my best production city unless my second best city can produce it in the same number of turns.

    Now, if you're not hitting one tech per turn (which is often the case... at least in my games), then there likely are advanatages/disadvantages to the tech path chosen and there must be an optimal path. I don't know the "optimal" path but I've played enough games to find one that works for me.
     

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