Wth...

[SnowlyWhite]

How much is exactly the ai cheating?(ok, immortal, but nevertheless...)

Long story short: I run a ce(ok, in 900ad ain't exactly the best ce in the world but still). I declare on mansa... I pillage every cottage he had:

Yes, he rebuilt 3 cottages in the mean time and has 2 furs or so that don't show up in the image... I have 5 cities with decent cottages, 2 gem mines, some spices and alike...

How in heavens name he has that gnp?! N.b - I have the confucianist shrine, which is what every city on this island runs... mansa founded taoism, but even assuming he made the shrine so fast(wasn't careful, tbh) taoism is in about 4-5 cities on the continent... Even if he'd run merchants, he can't run too many since I've pillaged most of his farms too(he has another city that doesn't show up in the image, but I've pillaged everything around it too)...

 

[oyzar]

working water titles.

 

[Sjaramei]

Doesn't he have some silly UB which gives more gold? (forge i think) AI get a moronic amounts of buffs on high levels.
(I've had 40&#37; of the land and Mansa with <20% keeps up with me in tech... balance!)

Edit: Oh btw i know AI gets discount on techs, maybe they get the discount as +% research(instead of tech costing 60%, they get bonus gold for the equivalent prob 150% or something) instead of discount. And thats why it gets so high on the graph?

 

[SnowlyWhite]

he works water tiles and produces more then my villages/towns? with 5 cities vs 5 cities(since my prod. cities make little commerce) and with only 3 of them costal?

 

[SnowlyWhite]

he has mint, which gives additional 10&#37; gold. And yes, the ai gets huge bonuses on higher lvls., however, he's supposed to get something like -40% research time and -40% production time on immortal. But no direct gnp, mfg bonuses, or that's what I knew...

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Doesn't the AI get an allowance of cash per turn at higher levels too?

 

[SnowlyWhite]

and regarding water tiles... if he'd work water tiles, then his production would be nil(and again, I have 7 well developed cities, he has 5), yet, at around 900 ad...

his mfg is also higher then mine...

Doesn't the AI get an allowance of cash per turn at higher levels too?

I knew only about discount research and production, not direct cash but... only word of mouth...

 

[carl corey]

Working Priest, Merchant & Engineer specialists?

 

[r_rolo1]

This is asking for WB spies to see the cities screens. But maybe carl corey suggestion may explain it ( you pillaged the tiles he was working, so maybe he switched to Caste System and pilled priests and merchants).

 

[frob2900]

The manufactured goods is due to a base hammer bonus they get on builds, I believe (I may be wrong tho.). I've worldbuilder tested surrounding every tile around an deity AI city with desert and they still pump out units much, much faster than the one hammer city tile would indicate..

As far as I know from the XML files, it is possible to set varying AI bonuses on hammers, depending on whether theyre building a city improvement, unit or wondes. They just happen to be set the same in the civ4handicapinfo.xml file.

I also believe that the AI does not "know" about this with standard AI intelligence (ok thats a bit redundant ), but with BetterAI they spam cities much close to each other in order to take advantage of their lower maintenance and base production bonus.

As an aside ,another ridiculous advantage is their war weariness reduction. They get hardly any even from the most massive and costly assaults.

I tested XML editing the deity AI so it had exactly the same bonuses as before, except 100% war weariness and 100% cash price on upgrading units.

It performed miserably, since when it lost a few huge stacks its cities shrunk to size 1 or 2 in no time due to WW. Increased unit upgrade costs lead to massive stacks of longbows, crossbowmen and knights in the modern era.

It seems that all those bonuses really are necessary to make the game challenging (with the standard AI). Still, BtS promises to fix some of these issues .

his mfg is also higher then mine...

 

[SnowlyWhite]

As far as I know from the XML files...

yeah, that's what I meant by word of mouth; thx alot for the info.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

This is asking for WB spies to see the cities screens.

that's what I also though, but only afterwards, and unfortunately finised the game and I don't have a save anymore

 

[occam]

1. Lower upkeep costs might set Mansu's hurdle a little lower than yours. So if everything was 'on par' he might come out ahead.

2. Mansu is financial, so the water tiles and river cottages get extra commerce.

3. The mint adds $, use world builder to see if there are lots of mints and markets.

4. Specialists (and settled great persons) can in the short term make a huge difference, so pillaging food resources is also critical to hamstring an economy. Civics can affect this.

5. Trade routes produce commerce - if Mansu has BIGGER cities than you, probably has an advantage. Also, harbors and ToA can improve this for Mansu. Does he have currency? Some techs and civics affect trade.

6. Religions can spread to surprising places and continents, so if Mansu has holy city income, it could be underestimated by you... AIs are much better about sending missionaries. In fact, if anyone converts to Taoism, they are likely to build some to spread it, which still benefits Mansu.

7. Some cities might be 'building' commerce. I don't know if this reduces mfg. GNP stat or not....

8. Could he be trading some resource for GPT?

Many of these suggestions could be verified by a look in World Builder... next time your outrage peaks, check it out.

- O

 

[occam]

I tested XML editing the deity AI so it had exactly the same bonuses as before, except 100% war weariness and 100% cash price on upgrading units.

It performed miserably, since when it lost a few huge stacks its cities shrunk to size 1 or 2 in no time due to WW. Increased unit upgrade costs lead to massive stacks of longbows, crossbowmen and knights in the modern era.

FROB2900,

Great experiment. These are the 2 bonuses I find most outrageous, too, and by a wide margin. Unlike handicapping so the playing field is inclined against the player, these bonuses feel like they reward bad play.

- O

 

[SnowlyWhite]

1. Gold != commerce.

fair enough, but the gnp graph shows commerce, not gold; set your slider to 0&#37; and you won't notice any move from slider at 100%.

2. Mansu is financial, so the water tiles and river cottages get extra commerce.

that's what I assumed too, however, then his production should be close to 0. And still, he shouldn't be on par with me, he should be close, but still under. Had more and bigger cities(me that is), so... Also, was around village on the average cottage, so more or less on par with a financial water tile.

5. Trade routes produce commerce - if Mansu has BIGGER cities than you, probably has an advantage. Also, harbors and ToA can improve this for Mansu. Does he have currency? Some techs and civics affect trade.

none of us had toa, both had currency, city size was more or less the same. None of us had gl either. So trade should've been more or less on par - abit in his side, due to probably 1-2 more harbours.

He didn't build the taoism shirne - noticed later when I built it myself and it was producing a whoping 6g(was wondering if it was worth keeping my gp till I conquered england and all of mali for 1g more...)

7. Some cities might be 'building' commerce. I don't know if this reduces mfg. GNP stat or not....

don't know if the graph is affected by commerce production tbh.

Many of these suggestions could be verified by a look in World Builder... next time your outrage peaks, check it out.

good advice tbh

 

[occam]

fair enough, but the gnp graph shows commerce, not gold; set your slider to 0% and you won't notice any move from slider at 100%.

My mistake, I am rewording my first point so I don't look (as) stupid.

 

[r_rolo1]

FROB2900,

Great experiment. These are the 2 bonuses I find most outrageous, too, and by a wide margin. Unlike handicapping so the playing field is inclined against the player, these bonuses feel like they reward bad play.

- O

There are more two featues that favour badly AI that I would like to see removed : Noble WFYABTA inter AI on every level ( I would like to see some leaders teching without it ) and the non denied request/demand inter AI ( trades between AI ( requests/demands included ) are always done, never tried ( if never tried, never refused))( this makes that only the human pile those piles of diplo - because of those annoying AI demands)

These aren't bonuses, just less then well done features.

 

[Winston Hughes]

Tip: Ignore the GNP graph, it's virtually meaningless.

Take my current game: myself and MM are running away in the tech race, each of us researching at approx. 2x the speed of the other AIs, and yet I'm last on the GNP graph and MM is only mid-table (and both of us are running well-developed CEs). Throw in the fact that my GNP graph shows an enormous spike whenever I go into anarchy (as if my GNP has doubled), and it's pretty obvious that this particular graph isn't worth the pixels it's drawn with.

Even if it did represent a civ's base commerce accurately (of which I'm unconvinced), total base commerce is much less important than having the right multipliers in the right places - one city with 20cpt + 200% multiplier beats four cities with 10cpt each (and no multiplier).

Maybe they'll improve it in BtS (what with the all new espionage-intelligence bit), but for now I only look at the GNP graph to see how little resemblance it bears to the in-game situation; I certainly would never worry about falling behind.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

GNP is base commerce - maintenance. Specialists do not affect GNP. Nor do libraries, mints, etc. Only buildings that add directly to commerce, like trade buildings, and buildings that subtract directly from maintenance, like courthouses, are of any importance to the GNP graph.

So Mansa has some water tiles, some trade routes and his palace, minus his empire maintenance which is very low compared to human.

Overall, the GNP graph is a ruse. It lacks many important components: specialists, % buldinings, etc. I've won space on deity while running negative GNP most of the time.