WW2-Global

[Rocoteh]

WW2-Global Multiplayer 1.1

WW2-Global Multiplayer 1.0 removed after 467 downloads.
WW2-Global Multiplayer 1.1 removed after 279 downloads.


Civs: Germany, Italy and Japan. Britain, France and America.
Soviet and Neutrals.

Neutrals include: Latin-America, Mexico, Spain, Portugal,
Scandinavia,Turkey,Belgium,Netherlands, Yugoslavia, Greece,
Iraq, Persia, Saudi-Arabia,Thailand and China.

Germany-Italy control: Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria
and Finland.

France controls Poland.

Locked alliances: Germany and Italy.
Britain and France. At war when the scenario starts.

Players should make their own "house-rules" for alliances and victory
should there be a need for it. Note that the 134 MB folder must have
been downloaded (Available to Post 1) if you want to play this scenario.

Special thanks to Dazz G.

Rocoteh

 

[Bob1475]

Week 47 1939 Emperor lev v1.2 adj for Rifle divisions defense to 13.

A few things I have learned about Russia - Cossacks give Russia a Golden Age! This seems ill timed since it comes early in the game if the Russians can find one victory for a Cossack (I attacked Turkey). Suggest eliminate the UU or change it to another unit later in the tech tree (presuming you are trying to get something realistic I would hardly call 1939 a Golden Age for Russia - maybe 1943?).

Second item is that the two wonders crank out a lof of units. I think the infantry unit makes sense - the Soviets had waves of infantry - the tank unit I think comes too early in the game - move it back somehow to reflect Allied assistance?

So far I have taken Turkey and tried to get my infrastructure developed. Not strong enough to take on Germany. I have avoided any problems with the Japanese or Allies by keeping my fleet in harbor. Romania declared war but I did not respond to their attacks resulting in no declaration of War by the axis. After a number of turns I offered peace and they accepted.

This confirms my suspicion that the Russians have a significant advantage in this scenario as being the only major power not locked in an alliance. With a human running things it will allow for significant territory to be taken from other non-aligned parties. The challenge will come when Russia has to fight overseas.

Next target - Persia but due to the fact that I do have a real life I will not get to that until Sunday.

The suggestion to remove armies would certainly level the field between humans and AI - not sure I am for it but even if I would give a few to Germany at the beginning to reflect their power position in 1939.

 

[Rocoteh]

Bob1475,

Golden Age is not relevant in this scenario.
I will remove it for all Civs in version 1.3.

Autoproduced tanks will be changed from T-34/76 to T-26.

Rocoteh

 

[DrNick]

DrNick,

Thank you for the stats.

It seems like AI give priority to marines and infantry.
Based on earlier experience I think AI will build infantry to
a certain level and then proceed to split its production.

Once there was a thread by ozymandias on AI and production.
Analyses and discussions there showed that AI seldom build more
than 3 unit-types at a given time. Most of the time it only build
2 unit-types at a given time.

I think AI will be unable to stop you from taking control over Australia.
(The Japanese SNLF is still in the scenario. I forget to mention that.)

Do you have a plan where to attack after Australia?

Rocoteh

Rocoteh,

Indeed it is turn 44 1940 and I am almost done conquering Australia, with little opposition. I have also taken Lhasa, Ansi and Urumtsi as I decided I should knock out the Chinese once and for all to secure that flank and maximize the happiness in my captured Chinese cities. Interestingly the US and the Soviets are at war for the 2nd time, hopefully that will keep the USSR occupied for a while longer. Its important as my spies tell me the Soviet army is getting really big and the Germans still have not conquered continental France all they have managed is to raise Paris, stupid! IN the meantime I found German troops around Kashgar, kind of a wasted effort there.
I am indecisive about my post Australia strategy. The Soviets worry me. If I am heavily comitted to invading the US West Coast all my troops are far away. I don't want to be caught like the Japanese in Manchuria in 1945. My other alternative is to attack India to weaken Britain further and help support Germany, thus keeping my forces close to Manchuria defense. However this leaves the US all by itself to grow its forces. hmmm....

Nick

 

[KristiB]

Just started playing with this scenario yesterday and so far the only thing I see is that almost without fail, the Japanese declare war on the Russians in week 40 or 41 of 1939 for almost no gain at all... They don't seem to take any cities from what I saw anyways so it must have just been a border clash. That seems to put a huge strain on the Axis right from the beginning since so much of Germany's units are then spent grinding against Russia before I can even build more than one or two panzers.

Great scenario, for sure though.

Question for other Germany players, what did you guys decide to do with the German navy and sub fleet right from the start? I tried keeping them mostly in port until I cleared most fo the channel and then running them out to sea but the massive English starting navy pummeled the whole lot of them before they could get very far out to sea.

As for playtesting, I concentrated mostly on just detroying Holland and France in the first few turns and didn't meet much resistance. Italy didn't send any troops into France but they decided we needed another few opponents and declared war on Spain, Turkey, and Yugoslavia...

I was able to force a peace with the Dutch after booting them from the continent, but I doubt Axis prospects are good with Russia in the war so early and Italy running around bringing more countries into the war against us...

Oh, I was playing on Demi-God mode if that matters.

 

[psweetman1590]

"On the battle for air-superiority over Britain:
Was a majority of the planes shot down by RAF or AA?
It seems like Britain-AI avoid to build air-units, so I think its
to early to say that the British airforce is to large.
Interesting that you managed to occupy Britain and Ireland
without air-superiority." Rocoteh

After attempting to bomb London twice and both were shot down by those AA guns/SAM missles/whatever you've got in there, I was not fool enough to lose the rest of my bombers there...so I tried for the resources North of Liverpool....they were all shot down. The resources and roads in Southern England....they were all shot down. The shipyards in Wick....they were all shot down.

I still think that Britain has too many fighters at first. The Nazis did enjoy initial succes in the blitz. In fact, Hitler's orders to switch bombing from airfields/military bases to population centers was considered one of his biggest mistakes of the war. You say that the AI is not inclined to produce planes on their own...perhaps make a wonder for London that generates a spitfire every 3 turns to simulate that grinding down Germany's luftwaf took a while. And reduce the number of fighters they start with of course.

"Question for other Germany players, what did you guys decide to do with the German navy and sub fleet right from the start? I tried keeping them mostly in port until I cleared most fo the channel and then running them out to sea but the massive English starting navy pummeled the whole lot of them before they could get very far out to sea." KristiB

What I did was move the entire fleet under the minefield outside of Hamburg in the North Sea. The destroyers would be the scouts - one would move 4 spaces NW, then back, noting the locations of the enemy ships/subs. Then have another move 4 spaces SW. Use the U-boats, NOT the surface ships, to sink the ships you find. Use the surface vessels to Bombard London and its surrounding terrain.

And related to this, keep your artillery handy, and build some new ones of the larger type too. I sunk TONS of ships, including some of the BBs and BCs, when they were stupid enough to end their turn next to my coast.

 

[KristiB]

Thanks for the advice

But I restarted and now Japan declared war on Russia on turn 2...



Edit: Oh, here's something else I noticed. When the French cities are taken over, the Swiss' culture expands on top of the only railroad leading into the southern part of the country. That's REALLY bad strategically for the Germans because they won't even talk about ROP even though they have no mobile troops... Maybe their borders oughta be made static in the next release.

 

[Rocoteh]

KristiB,

"Just started playing with this scenario yesterday and so far the only thing I see is that almost without fail, the Japanese declare war on the Russians in week 40 or 41 of 1939 for almost no gain at all..." KristiB

Aggression level is al lowest possible for Japan AI.
I will see if there anything more I can do to stop Japan from
declaring war early on Soviet.

"When the French cities are taken over, the Swiss' culture expands on top of the only railroad leading into the southern part of the country." KristiB

Switzerland will not be an independent Civ in version 1.3.
Belgium will be that instead.

Thank you for the comments and welcome back.

Rocoteh

 

[Rocoteh]

Rocoteh,

Indeed it is turn 44 1940 and I am almost done conquering Australia, with little opposition. I have also taken Lhasa, Ansi and Urumtsi as I decided I should knock out the Chinese once and for all to secure that flank and maximize the happiness in my captured Chinese cities. Interestingly the US and the Soviets are at war for the 2nd time, hopefully that will keep the USSR occupied for a while longer. Its important as my spies tell me the Soviet army is getting really big and the Germans still have not conquered continental France all they have managed is to raise Paris, stupid! IN the meantime I found German troops around Kashgar, kind of a wasted effort there.
I am indecisive about my post Australia strategy. The Soviets worry me. If I am heavily comitted to invading the US West Coast all my troops are far away. I don't want to be caught like the Japanese in Manchuria in 1945. My other alternative is to attack India to weaken Britain further and help support Germany, thus keeping my forces close to Manchuria defense. However this leaves the US all by itself to grow its forces. hmmm....

Nick

Nick,

Thank you for the report.

Both China and Australia soon in your control. It sounds like
an interesting strategic situation for Japan.
I agree with you on Soviet: There is a great risk for an attack
as soon as there is peace with US.

German forces has razed Paris. I hope the improvements done
in version 1.2 will stop most razing.

I really agree with you: You will soon have to take a very hard
decision if to invade US West coast or first deal with Soviet.

I am looking forward to hear from you again. It will be very
interesting to see which strategy you determine to follow.

Rocoteh

 

[Rocoteh]

psweetman1590,

"I still think that Britain has too many fighters at first" psweetman1590

OK, I will look at this problem before the release of version 1.3
and see if changes should be made.

Thank you for the comments.

Rocoteh

 

[KristiB]

Hmm, maybe make Russia unofficially part of the Axis until X turn or something? Or perhaps put 1 single more hex of a space buffer between Japan and Russia? I wish I could actually SEE where the aggression starts... Maybe it's a Japanese ship running into a Russian sub perhaps? Not even sure if Russia has subs in the Pacific yet... Just grasping at straws here...

I even gave them an offering of rubber and aluminum thinking that maybe they were going for the Russian's resources, but that didn't seem to make a difference. I'm going to try offering the resources right away on turn 1 to see if that helps...

I'd also suggest possibly making France have more infantry units. As Germany, I can destroy Poland, Yugoslavia, Holland, take Copenhagen, and knock on the door of Paris by the end of turn 2; Paris falls on turn 3. I was thinking that maybe it was MY aggression that might be setting off the Japanese somehow.

Anyways, it's a great scenario.

Oh, one other suggestion that you might hate... I actually find the specific names of the units a nice touch BUT they make it harder to look at a stack and see exactly what you have there. My bf who's a WWII buff thinks they're great but I'd much prefer just simple INF, SS INF, Panz, etc...

 

[Rocoteh]

KristiB,

"Hmm, maybe make Russia unofficially part of the Axis until X turn or something?" KristiB

It will not work within the current game-engine though.
I will move all Soviet naval units in the Far East to a position
near Alexandrovsk to see if it makes any difference.

"I'd also suggest possibly making France have more infantry units" KristiB

Pfeffersack has an ongoing playtest as France. I want to hear results
from that (and other playtests with France also of course.) before
I add forces to France for the purposes of play-balance.

"Oh, one other suggestion that you might hate... I actually find the specific names of the units a nice touch BUT they make it harder to look at a stack and see exactly what you have there. My bf who's a WWII buff thinks they're great but I'd much prefer just simple INF, SS INF, Panz, etc" KristiB

I respect that opinion. However I think the names give flavour to
the scenario. With regard to WW3-Global (If I find time to complete it)
a minority of the ground forces will have names though.

Thank you for the comments and welcome back.

Rocoteh

 

[Arvln]

hmm I did play using Britain in 1.2. Well it is very interesting to defend in the first twenty turns. I have beaten Italy out ot Africa securing suez canal and jerusalem. Did have trouble when Rusia declare war with allied.
I just realised that Russian Motorised Rifle Division become very strong indeed. I remember butchering them with panzer or grant/lee in 1.0 & 1.1 respectively. Well Britain did not have anything strong enough to be put against those division. They have stats( A21/D19/M2) while the best defense or offense units that Britain until 1941? are Matilda 2(15/19/2) and Cruiser Mark4(17/?/2) My tanks were butchered trying to repel a stack of MRD and only with huge air support and artilery I was able to repel them. Regarding British Tank Brigade, why they have a same stats with Cruiser I , except for -1 health bonus and the ability to airlift( is it a bug? or you purposely ticked the box).
But Britain have a nice Air force- " the few" is really good in terms of air supriority but not in air support except for the strong Blackburn Skua. Well I just finished researching Mosquito it looks cool!! hopefully it will perform as good as they looks.
Well the navy it is beautiful. I like the KGV they are strong and cool,but somehow they have the ability to do recon and air supriority? Is it a bug?
About other nations, the German are weaker compare in 1.0 and 1.1. They even lost stettin to poland before taking it back the next turn.They simply have no chance to fight russia. Russia is very strong, maybe too strong. Well their tank performance may be good, but in the field(I am apologise if I am wrong) they were outclassed by the German Tanks. Their MRD is simply the best unit in the early turns of the games come on 21/19/2 with only 130 shields who can beat(except panser3) them until the advent of Grant or Sherman. And for Britain they can only pray until Crusader come in around 1942.
About the flavour names, keep it please. Although it quite difficult to point them in a stack as KristiB pointed out earlier, it is fun and interesting. The British forces have a nice name.

Nice Job Keep it up.
Arvln

 

[Sasebo]

As far as Italy is concerned we DO NOT want to see more French Infantry!! The German AI just sits on its hands vis-a-vis France. France is way better then Italy troop-wise, and the border with them is just harsh terrrain. I have been pushed back in the north as the french cultural border moved and sucked up my sheep on the mountains. France is currently beating on Spain with no ill effects on their eastern border. I am thinking those maginot forts may be too rough for the German AI to handle.

Allies merrily invading Spain and declared war on Turkey and Greece, Netherlands as well. That one city in Spain on french border to the NW was razed again on turn 2. I saw the battles from the hills near Marseilles, the French lost a lot of tanks taking it, maybe they thought they could not hold it?? English are attacking from Gibralter.

Has been a bloodbath in the Med so far, I have sunk over 150 SS/DDs and about 25 capital ships. BBs are hard to kill. I lost about 35-40 is so far, but I left a stack of 10 out in the open when I moved CL with DDs and they ended up short because of that. Also about 10 SS weakening two UK BBs so mine could take them down.

It just seems the low end Naval units are much too weak; I was getting at least 8 to 1 kill rates when I used DDs to hit other DDs. The offense on the low end is too powerful! I have a few suggestions for you to consider Rocoteh:

DD: Up defense to 8,they really need it,they will still die in droves, but at least they will attrition you better. If you fortify in water squares it ends up almost even fight number-wise, with the tiniest of edges to the attacker when DD fights DD. DDs speed & maneuver is where they get their defense value, not armor. I find DD useful for scouting, and especially flak!! I put 6 in each city and they have ripped the allies air raids to shreds, I shoot down almost every other one. psweetmans problems with bombing UK cities is easily explained if they still have fleets of light naval; the flak is insane with large groups. Also, he should check the range of his fighters. If they are not within half their range they are not going to intercept any UK fighters;his bombers will get creamed.

SS: After you look at the few other changes I recommend you might want to bump SS atk/def by +1,but I think they are fine. Maybe up the cost to 110-120 though. Issue would be if you want DDs with 8 def to die before any SS with def 7 get hit. SS are great for defense,that targeted attack is really useful.

CL: This was the unit that got me wanting to change the stats in the 1st place. If you attack 1st, you have a 4-1 edge in power vs. a DD;if he goes first he has the edge??!! No way! I see you upped CL2 to 14 defense. I am suggesting a def of 16 for the CL, and 18 for the CL2s. These are good mobile attackers with longer reach then SS from your ports. Most of your naval units do have a role to play, which is nice.

CA: Same deal as CL. I am suggesting CA def to 18 and CA2 to 22. The extra strength and bombard ability defines their role as capital ship escorts / bombard Task Group pretty well.

AA Cruiser: Maybe fine but it is really underpowered. The AI does not build them for that reason I bet. Also I think it is pitiful they are outgunned by DDs. Suggest Atk 12 def 15, and then see if the AI builds any.

Carriers: Was wondering if you wanted to keep those CV defenses so high, or actually lower then so they can hide behind DDs. Well,subs could still target them, but it was just an idea. So long as CV is lower def then your desired escort ship they will be fine. If you do think of adding some of these changes you could up CV defenses a bit then.

Overall so far Italy is fun. Too much to do, and not enough units to do it with. Navy will occupy your time, the Med is BUSY!! I pressed on into Greece since it seemed the safest attack I could make, and my forces could reach it easily. I don't want the allies getting it first. I also need that coal! I am about to land a force in North africa,not sure if I will attack french or just reinforce until after Greece is done. I only have one Transport so I am stuck for a bit. French are scary for the Italians, but the British are far worse. I think you captured the East Africa situation very well. I have a lot of troops and own the skies, but my army out there is offensively challenged and is all lowly conscript dogs. I feel really threatened out there surrounded by the allies.

That's all for now. Oh, and these turns are much longer then China's, I think it is the 250+ naval units maybe.

 

[KristiB]

Yeah, I forgot to mention the same thing... Once Russia declared war, they immediately destroyed one of the eastern european states and I saw like 6 or 7 untouched 21-19-(2) mech rifle divisions sitting on top of a hill getting ready for a run into my Yugoslavian city there... That's better than ANYthing the Germans have, including Panzer divisions. And looking at the tech tree, I wouldn't have anything comparable for quite a few turns.

I was always under the impression that the Germans had pretty much the best armor in the game at the outbreak of the war. Maybe those Russians aren't classified as true 'armor' units, but they have the (2) mobility and stats to utterly wipe out my own 18-10 Panzers that I have, at most, 10 of to start... I can build 21-13-2 (?) ones but that would take at least a few turns.

I'd have to agree about Russia maybe just being too strong in starting units. Maybe the stats of those mech rifle divisions oughta be lowered to 17-14-1 or something.. At the very least, be made not quite as mobile... Maybe make the Russians have to go up the skill tree alittle before they get, from what I've seen, the BEST land unit in the game...

 

[Rocoteh]

Arvln,

Thank you.

"I just realised that Russian Motorised Rifle Division become very strong indeed" Arvln

It will be changed in version 1.3.

"Regarding British Tank Brigade, why they have a same stats with Cruiser I , except for -1 health bonus and the ability to airlift( is it a bug? or you purposely ticked the box)." Arvln

Airlift is a bug. HP -1 represents that its only a Brigade.

I like the KGV they are strong and cool,but somehow they have the ability to do recon and air supriority? Is it a bug? Arvln

Yes it is. Thank you for reporting it.

"About other nations, the German are weaker compare in 1.0 and 1.1."
Arvln

I have made a note on that. It will be interesting to hear more
playtest-reports on that matter.

"About the flavour names, keep it please" Arvln

The flavour names will stay.

Welcome back.

Rocoteh

 

[Rocoteh]

Sasebo,

Thank you for the report.

"As far as Italy is concerned we DO NOT want to see more French Infantry"
Sasebo

No plans on that for the moment. I may change that, should several
playtest-report indicate that the scenario is balanced against France
in an unhistorical way.

Note that I think historian James F.Dunnigan was right when he said
France had no chance to fight Germany to deadlock like the one
in WW1.

"I was getting at least 8 to 1 kill rates when I used DDs to hit other DDs. The offense on the low end is too powerful! " Sasebo

That is not good!

On your suggested new stats for naval units:

Overall I thinks it sounds good.
I will study them again before a final decision. However proposed changes
sounds reasonable and I will probably make new stats.

"I only have one Transport so I am stuck for a bit" Sasebo

Transports will be added in version 1.3

Thank you and welcome back.

Rocoteh

 

[Rocoteh]

Yeah, I forgot to mention the same thing... Once Russia declared war, they immediately destroyed one of the eastern european states and I saw like 6 or 7 untouched 21-19-(2) mech rifle divisions sitting on top of a hill getting ready for a run into my Yugoslavian city there... That's better than ANYthing the Germans have, including Panzer divisions. And looking at the tech tree, I wouldn't have anything comparable for quite a few turns.

I was always under the impression that the Germans had pretty much the best armor in the game at the outbreak of the war. Maybe those Russians aren't classified as true 'armor' units, but they have the (2) mobility and stats to utterly wipe out my own 18-10 Panzers that I have, at most, 10 of to start... I can build 21-13-2 (?) ones but that would take at least a few turns.

I'd have to agree about Russia maybe just being too strong in starting units. Maybe the stats of those mech rifle divisions oughta be lowered to 17-14-1 or something.. At the very least, be made not quite as mobile... Maybe make the Russians have to go up the skill tree alittle before they get, from what I've seen, the BEST land unit in the game...

KristiB,

OK, I will change the stats for the Motorized Rifle Division in
version 1.3.

As these stats show though it was a unit to count:

60xT-34
215xLight Tanks (of different types)
51xArmoured Cars
158xGuns and Mortars
11 600 men

Note also that the Tank Division (T-26) in no way is a "super-unit".

Germany did not have the best tanks when WW2 started but
they used the tanks they had in a superior way compared to
other nations.

In fact the "Blitzkrieg" was not a secret. There were countless
articles about it in German military journals.
British and French military was invited to see the maneuvers.

No one cared though.... until it was to late.

Rocoteh

 

[Dazz_G]

KristiB,

OK, I will change the stats for the Motorized Rifle Division in
version 1.3.

As these stats show though it was a unit to count:

60xT-34
215xLight Tanks (of different types)
51xArmoured Cars
158xGuns and Mortars
11 600 men

Note also that the Tank Division (T-26) in no way is a "super-unit".

Germany did not have the best tanks when WW2 started but
they used the tanks they had in a superior way compared to
other nations.

In fact the "Blitzkrieg" was not a secret. There were countless
articles about it in German military journals.
British and French military was invited to see the maneuvers.

No one cared though.... until it was to late.

Rocoteh

I understand what you are getting at regarding German tanks not being superior in their own right ... the problem is though, how do you simulate their excellent performance in battle within the constrains of the Civ3 model as you have to imagine that human players shouldn't make the sort of mistakes made historically (as for the AI, now that is another matter ). I believe that the best way to do this is to slightly increase their attack to simulate their superior performance but NOT to increase their defence so as to not turn them into some kind of super unit ... maybe even slightly reduce their defence to balance their increased attack ? You may even find that by reducing their defence, you create a greater need for infantry support to help defend the tank ... which, correct me if i'm wrong, was all part of the Blitzkrieg ethos .... superb co-ordination between the various elements of the Armed Forces.

 

[Rocoteh]

I understand what you are getting at regarding German tanks not being superior in their own right ... the problem is though, how do you simulate their excellent performance in battle within the constrains of the Civ3 model as you have to imagine that human players shouldn't make the sort of mistakes made historically (as for the AI, now that is another matter ). I believe that the best way to do this is to slightly increase their attack to simulate their superior performance but NOT to increase their defence so as to not turn them into some kind of super unit ... maybe even slightly reduce their defence to balance their increased attack ? You may even find that by reducing their defence, you create a greater need for infantry support to help defend the tank ... which, correct me if i'm wrong, was all part of the Blitzkrieg ethos .... superb co-ordination between the various elements of the Armed Forces.

Dazz_G,

Agree.
You have really a point there.
Considering that the Panzer III represents the German Panzer division
for a long time period in the scenario I will probably shift its
stats up.

Also: WW2-Global Multiplayer will be available for download
within 24 hours.

Rocoteh