WW2 Tank Elimination

[privatehudson]

Merkava120:

The point about comparing it to other German tanks rather than tanks of another combatant is that there are far more factors than the simplicity or otherwise of the design that impact on the numbers built. The Sherman for example was largely built in a country that was neither bombed around the clock nor seriously starved of important resources and that's before a discussion of the relative merits and size of each country's industrial base is brought into the discussion. Its hardly surprising that more Shermans were turned out than Panthers, it would be astonishing if that wasn't the case.

The fact that the Panther's production figures compares favourably with most other German tanks suggests that it was in fact not hard or complicated to produce, in fact several aspects of the design were specifically simplified to help with this.

Hence why I find it a little unfair to mark it down on the basis of a comparison that may have only a limited amount do with the merits of each vehicle.

 

[CaptainLost]

I gave one to the T-70, the Tiny Tank That Could with its very impressive frontal armor. I also gave one to the SU-76, which was a very fast and relatively well-armored tank destroyer with a pretty good gun, which makes it one of the best tank destroyers of the time.
I also took one from the base M4 Sherman because it caught fire a lot, so much so that it was nicknamed by the British after a famous lighter, the Ronson (which had the slogan "Lights up the first time, every time").

Had to return one to the base M4 as it did not actually burn more often than its contemporaries, and the late models [M4A3(75)w] rectified that so that it was as survivable as other late war tanks. Also, the strength of its base design is what allowed it to be continually upgraded for use all the way into the 1970s.
The SU-76 gets down graded as it was not particularly effective, and was considered a death trap by its crews. The Soviets had much better TDs in the SU-85 and, especially, the SU-100.
The T-70 gets down voted because its mobility was not much better than the T-34's. The Soviets even stopped producing them when they realized that the T-34 could fill any role the T-70 was meant for - and many more besides.

I'm taking two from the Pershing because, as well put by Kaiserguard:
Quote:
M26 Pershing...not much more than gigantic husks that had little practical value overall.

The Pershing was in no way a "giant husk that had little practical value". It came too late in the war to have much impact, but it fought effectively in Korea. Further, it gave birth to the M46/47, M48, and M60 series of tanks that would serve the US Army, NATO, Israel, and other allied nations to this day.

Why didn't you argue with Kaiserguard when he originally posted the "giant husk" statement, and wait until I had said something? I apologize if this is sounding accusatory, but it intrigues me that I have been slammed down twice by the same person, even though the second time I was just quoting someone else.

Also, the M26 Pershing had an off-road speed of about 5 miles an hour. It was sluggish and slow, and at the time unreliable, although its reliability problems were solved after the war. However, if you look at the title of this thread it happens to be "WW2 Tank Elimination", not "Korean War Tank Elimination", which suggests that we are dealing with tanks and their direct impacts in World War II.

Spoiler :

One of many sources I have based my claims on

I must wait one hour and twenty minutes to do my next elimination but when I do, I will try to give points based solely on the tanks' direct impacts in World War II.

And besides this thread is supposed to be a game--not a huge debate.

 

[CaptainLost]

Merkava120:

The point about comparing it to other German tanks rather than tanks of another combatant is that there are far more factors than the simplicity or otherwise of the design that impact on the numbers built. The Sherman for example was largely built in a country that was neither bombed around the clock nor seriously starved of important resources and that's before a discussion of the relative merits and size of each country's industrial base is brought into the discussion. Its hardly surprising that more Shermans were turned out than Panthers, it would be astonishing if that wasn't the case.

The fact that the Panther's production figures compares favourably with most other German tanks suggests that it was in fact not hard or complicated to produce, in fact several aspects of the design were specifically simplified to help with this.

Hence why I find it a little unfair to mark it down on the basis of a comparison that may have only a limited amount do with the merits of each vehicle.

Production of the German Panther tank coincided with a period of streamlined and increased manufacturing efficiency. And, while the Panther designers had production in mind when they first designed the tank, the simplifications that allowed it to be produced more efficiently than other German tanks caused reliability problems. And again, I was not comparing the Panther to other German tanks, I was comparing Germany's best tank to the US's best tank, and since the M4 Sherman was designed with extremely efficient mass-production as one of the core features, it won. The panther was no doubt the best and most-efficiently-produced German tank of the war, hands down. But again in that one post I was comparing the Sherman with the Panther.

(Thank you very much, everyone, for the intelligence, you are much, much better debaters than anyone here in mah home town.)

 

[MilesGregarius]

I'm sorry if you felt I was targeting you in particular. I was just reacting to seeing the Pershing in free fall at a 9 while a number of decidedly less deserving tanks still sit untouched at 15.

The Pershing was definitely not a great tank, but it was by no means an inferior one. Knocking it down a peg or two at this stage is warranted, but it is far from the worst on the board.

 

[CaptainLost]

I'm sorry if you felt I was targeting you in particular. I was just reacting to seeing the Pershing in free fall at a 9 while a number of decidedly less deserving tanks still sit untouched at 15.

The Pershing was definitely not a great tank, but it was by no means an inferior one. Knocking it down a peg or two at this stage is warranted, but it is far from the worst on the board.

Ooh would you like to knock points off of some of them now? We could really use some attention to other tanks on the list that haven't been touched--Panzer II, III, IV, Jagdpanzer IV, Jagdpanther, IS-3, KV-1, Cromwell, Churchill III, Chaffee, Lee, Ha-Go, T-26 have all been totally unspoken of.

And I agree, the Pershing was not a terrible tank, it's just a personal unfavorite.

 

[privatehudson]

And besides this thread is supposed to be a game--not a huge debate

Whilst appreciating that this was in a post above the one you quoted me in, I assume that's a general remark for all. I didn't realise I was starting a huge debate sorry, I was suggesting that if someone does take points off a tank it should be on the grounds of a fair comparison and accurate comment at least, otherwise their deduction should to be brought into question and left open for discussion, which is all that I did.

If doing so detracts from your idea for the game and therefore thread then I'll bow out of the thread, since it interests me far less at that point.

 

[Yoda Power]

T-34/76 19
T-34/85 18
Panzer I 14
Panzer II 15
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 14
Panzer V Panther 14
Panzer VI Tiger I 13
Panzer VI Tiger II 12
T-70 15
SU-76 15
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 16
M4A3E8 Sherman 16
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 16
KV-1 15
KV-2 14
IS-2 16
IS-3 15
Matilda 16
Cromwell 15
Churchill III 14
M18 Hellcat 17
M26 Pershing 11
M3 Stuart 14
M4 Sherman Firefly 18
7TP 14
Type 95 Ha-Go 15
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 15
Jagdtiger 14
T-26 15

Stop the hatin'.

 

[Tahuti]

T-34/76 19
T-34/85 18
Panzer I 13
Panzer II 15
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 15
Panzer V Panther 15
Panzer VI Tiger I 13
Panzer VI Tiger II 12
T-70 15
SU-76 15
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 16
M4A3E8 Sherman 16
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 16
KV-1 15
KV-2 14
IS-2 16
IS-3 15
Matilda 16
Cromwell 15
Churchill III 13
M18 Hellcat 17
M26 Pershing 11
M3 Stuart 14
M4 Sherman Firefly 18
7TP 14
Type 95 Ha-Go 15
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 15
Jagdtiger 14
T-26 15

 

[PhroX]

T-34/76 19
T-34/85 19
Panzer I 13
Panzer II 15
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 15
Panzer V Panther 15
Panzer VI Tiger I 13
Panzer VI Tiger II 12
T-70 15
SU-76 15
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 17 - Cheap, easily mass produced and versatile. It sometimes gets a lot of stick but pretty much all it's flaws (eg a tendacy to catch fire) are exaggerated and applied to other tanks as well.
M4A3E8 Sherman 16
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 16
KV-1 15
KV-2 14
IS-2 16
IS-3 15
Matilda 16
Cromwell 15
Churchill III 14 - To be honest, it wasn't a great tank and was arguably obsolete in many ways by the time it actually saw combat, but it just worked - a rugged, reliable design with very good off road performace (German defenders in rough ground/hills etc often couldn't believe the Brits had gotten tanks to their positions), and people had voted it down, so I'll give it a point.
M18 Hellcat 17
M26 Pershing 11
M3 Stuart 14
M4 Sherman Firefly 18
7TP 14
Type 95 Ha-Go 14 - Japanese tanks. Yeah. As wiki says "the Type 95 could still give the M3 Stuart light tank a run for its money at close range". So it could fight early Stuarts. At close range. Think that says it all...
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 15
Jagdtiger 13 - Everything that was wrong with German AV design - overly large, horribly unreliable and of no real use
T-26 15

By the way, where's the StuGIII? That deserves plenty of upvotes - cheap and very good at doing what it was designed for. German design done right (the opposite of the JT....)

edit: Crossposted, think I've corrected it all

 

[Yoda Power]

@PhroX you gave a false point to the T-34/85!

 

[Yoda Power]

T-34/76 19
T-34/85 18
Panzer I 13
Panzer II 15
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 15
Panzer V Panther 15
Panzer VI Tiger I 13
Panzer VI Tiger II 12
T-70 15
SU-76 15
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 17
M4A3E8 Sherman 16
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 16
KV-1 15
KV-2 14
IS-2 16
IS-3 15
Matilda 16
Cromwell 15
Churchill III 14
M18 Hellcat 17
M26 Pershing 11
M3 Stuart 14
M4 Sherman Firefly 18
7TP 14
Type 95 Ha-Go 14
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 15
Jagdtiger 13
T-26 15

 

[PhroX]

@PhroX you gave a false point to the T-34/85!

Whoops, was thinking about voting for it (no way it deserves to be lower than the /76 version which was a good but flawed vehicle) but changed my mind when I saw people knocking down the Churchill before some of the crap still on 15

 

[Yoda Power]

T-34/76 20
T-34/85 18
Panzer I 13
Panzer II 15
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 15
Panzer V Panther 16
Panzer VI Tiger I 13
Panzer VI Tiger II 11
T-70 15
SU-76 15
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 17
M4A3E8 Sherman 16
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 16
KV-1 15
KV-2 14
IS-2 16
IS-3 15
Matilda 16
Cromwell 15
Churchill III 13
M18 Hellcat 17
M26 Pershing 11
M3 Stuart 14
M4 Sherman Firefly 18
7TP 14
Type 95 Ha-Go 14
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 15
Jagdtiger 13
T-26 15

 

[Tahuti]

T-34/76 20
T-34/85 20
Panzer I 13
Panzer II 15
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 15
Panzer V Panther 16
Panzer VI Tiger I 13
Panzer VI Tiger II 9
T-70 15
SU-76 15
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 17
M4A3E8 Sherman 16
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 16
KV-1 15
KV-2 14
IS-2 16
IS-3 15
Matilda 16
Cromwell 15
Churchill III 13
M18 Hellcat 17
M26 Pershing 11
M3 Stuart 14
M4 Sherman Firefly 18
7TP 14
Type 95 Ha-Go 14
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 15
Jagdtiger 13
T-26 15

 

[CaptainLost]

Whilst appreciating that this was in a post above the one you quoted me in, I assume that's a general remark for all. I didn't realise I was starting a huge debate sorry, I was suggesting that if someone does take points off a tank it should be on the grounds of a fair comparison and accurate comment at least, otherwise their deduction should to be brought into question and left open for discussion, which is all that I did.

If doing so detracts from your idea for the game and therefore thread then I'll bow out of the thread, since it interests me far less at that point.

No worries, as long as people keep playing the game it's fine with me to debate, as long as everyone else is fine with it. And I'd be wrong to expect no debating in the History forum...

And as far as I could see it was a fair comparison, perhaps not-so-much an accurate comment. My apologies for that.

 

[CaptainLost]

By the way, where's the StuGIII? That deserves plenty of upvotes - cheap and very good at doing what it was designed for. German design done right (the opposite of the JT....)

WHOOPS...

Should we stick the StuG III on the end, with 15 points, or would that be unfair at this point?

 

[Tahuti]

WHOOPS...

Should we stick the StuG III on the end, with 15 points, or would that be unfair at this point?

Put it in, we have yet to eliminate our first tank.

 

[CaptainLost]

T-34/76 21
T-34/85 21
Again I couldn't decide which I liked better, so gave one to both.
Panzer I 13
Panzer II 14
Took two away because although there were many more Panzers than there were 7TP's, the Panzer II was just not as good as the 7TP. Had the Polish deployed their tanks more smartly, and had more of them, they may have been able to defeat the German tanks.
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 15
Panzer V Panther 16
Panzer VI Tiger I 13
Panzer VI Tiger II 9
T-70 15
SU-76 15
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 17
M4A3E8 Sherman 16
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 16
KV-1 15
KV-2 14
IS-2 16
IS-3 15
Matilda 16
Cromwell 15
Churchill III 13
M18 Hellcat 17
M26 Pershing 11
M3 Stuart 14
M4 Sherman Firefly 18
7TP 13
Despite my comment above on the Panzer II, I am taking one from the 7TP for its original two-turreted version armed only with machine guns. Generally two-turreted tanks have not done very well in the past, especially when only armed with MG's.
Type 95 Ha-Go 14
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 15
Jagdtiger 13
T-26 15
StuG III 15

Put it in, we have yet to eliminate our first tank.

All right, it's done.

 

[AnthonyBoscia]

T-34/76 21
T-34/85 21
Panzer I 12
Panzer II 14
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 16
Panzer V Panther 16
Panzer VI Tiger I 13
Panzer VI Tiger II 9
T-70 15
SU-76 15
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 18
M4A3E8 Sherman 16
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 16
KV-1 15
KV-2 14
IS-2 16
IS-3 15
Matilda 16
Cromwell 15
Churchill III 13
M18 Hellcat 17
M26 Pershing 11
M3 Stuart 14
M4 Sherman Firefly 18
7TP 13
Type 95 Ha-Go 13
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 15
Jagdtiger 13
T-26 15
StuG III 15

M4- For reasons already expounded upon exhaustively in the other thread. When it hit the scene it was more than a match for its opponents, and was adaptable and reliable. In the top 5 WW2 vehicles after the T-34, Jeep, and deuce and a half, surely.
Pz.Kpfw. IV- Continuously upgraded, improved, and expertly utilized. The quintessential panzer.
Pz.Kpfw. I- Possible origin of the phrase, "Welp, better than nuttin'". I'll refrain from snide comments about its effectiveness against Poles and the French, but seriously, who wouldn't want to phase this thing out of service?

Spoiler :

It's true, your honor. This tank has no gun.

HaGo- I understand that the Japanese heavy industry wasn't at the point where it could domestically develop and produce stuff at a comparable rate to its enemies. But this Tonka toy was like an express ticket to Yasukuni. I did like that sequence in The Pacific though, which I thought illustrated how even a very light tank can be intimidating when all you're carrying is rifles and light mortars.

 

[Tahuti]

T-34/76 21
T-34/85 21
Panzer I 12
Panzer II 14
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 17
Panzer V Panther 17
Panzer VI Tiger I 13
Panzer VI Tiger II 7
T-70 15
SU-76 15
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 18
M4A3E8 Sherman 16
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 16
KV-1 15
KV-2 14
IS-2 16
IS-3 15
Matilda 16
Cromwell 15
Churchill III 13
M18 Hellcat 17
M26 Pershing 11
M3 Stuart 14
M4 Sherman Firefly 18
7TP 13
Type 95 Ha-Go 13
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 15
Jagdtiger 13
T-26 15
StuG III 15

Bury the beast!