WW2 Tank Elimination

[CaptainLost]

T-34/76 21
T-34/85 21
Panzer I 12
Panzer II 14
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 17
Panzer V Panther 17
Panzer VI Tiger I 13
Panzer VI Tiger II 5
T-70 15
SU-76 15
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 18
M4A3E8 Sherman 16
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 16
KV-1 15
KV-2 14
IS-2 16
IS-3 15
Matilda 16
Cromwell 15
Churchill III 13
M18 Hellcat 17
M26 Pershing 11
M3 Stuart 14
M4 Sherman Firefly 18
7TP 13
Type 95 Ha-Go 13
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 15
Jagdtiger 13
T-26 15
StuG III 17

StuG III--the most-produced German vehicle in the war, and a very good tank otherwise.

Bury the beast!

I've got the shovel; anyone have a suitable headstone?

 

[Tahuti]

T-34/76 21
T-34/85 21
Panzer I 12
Panzer II 14
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 17
Panzer V Panther 18
Panzer VI Tiger I 13
Panzer VI Tiger II 3
T-70 15
SU-76 15
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 18
M4A3E8 Sherman 16
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 16
KV-1 15
KV-2 14
IS-2 16
IS-3 15
Matilda 16
Cromwell 15
Churchill III 13
M18 Hellcat 17
M26 Pershing 11
M3 Stuart 14
M4 Sherman Firefly 19
7TP 13
Type 95 Ha-Go 13
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 15
Jagdtiger 13
T-26 15
StuG III 17

I've got the shovel; anyone have a suitable headstone?

Epitaph: You were overrated anyway...

 

[e350tb]

T-34/76 21
T-34/85 21
Panzer I 12
Panzer II 14
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 17
Panzer V Panther 20
Panzer VI Tiger I 13
Panzer VI Tiger II 1
T-70 15
SU-76 15
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 18
M4A3E8 Sherman 16
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 16
KV-1 15
KV-2 14
IS-2 16
IS-3 15
Matilda 16
Cromwell 15
Churchill III 13
M18 Hellcat 17
M26 Pershing 11
M3 Stuart 14
M4 Sherman Firefly 19
7TP 13
Type 95 Ha-Go 13
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 15
Jagdtiger 13
T-26 15
StuG III 17

 

[Tahuti]

T-34/76 21
T-34/85 22
Panzer I 12
Panzer II 14
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 17
Panzer V Panther 20
Panzer VI Tiger I 12
Panzer VI Tiger II [eliminated]
T-70 15
SU-76 15
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 18
M4A3E8 Sherman 16
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 16
KV-1 15
KV-2 14
IS-2 17
IS-3 15
Matilda 16
Cromwell 15
Churchill III 13
M18 Hellcat 17
M26 Pershing 11
M3 Stuart 14
M4 Sherman Firefly 19
7TP 13
Type 95 Ha-Go 13
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 15
Jagdtiger 13
T-26 15
StuG III 17

So, the Tiger II now lies buried.

 

[CaptainLost]

T-34/76 21
T-34/85 22
Panzer I 12
Panzer II 14
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 17
Panzer V Panther 20
Panzer VI Tiger I 10
T-70 15
SU-76 15
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 18
M4A3E8 Sherman 16
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 16
KV-1 15
KV-2 14
IS-2 17
IS-3 15
Matilda 16
Cromwell 15
Churchill III 13
M18 Hellcat 17
M26 Pershing 11
M3 Stuart 14
M4 Sherman Firefly 19
7TP 13
Type 95 Ha-Go 13
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 15
Jagdtiger 13
T-26 15
StuG III 19

Now down with the Tiger I!

 

[PhroX]

T-34/76 21
T-34/85 22
Panzer I 11 - A useful vehicle for testing out new ideas and introducing the German army to tanks. A useless vehicle in an actual war.
Panzer II 14
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 17
Panzer V Panther 20
Panzer VI Tiger I 10
T-70 15
SU-76 15
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 18
M4A3E8 Sherman 16
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 16
KV-1 15
KV-2 14
IS-2 17
IS-3 15
Matilda 16
Cromwell 15
Churchill III 13
M18 Hellcat 17
M26 Pershing 11
M3 Stuart 14
M4 Sherman Firefly 20 - The Yanks made good tanks, the Brits made fantastic guns. Put them together and it kicks ass
7TP 13
Type 95 Ha-Go 13
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 15
Jagdtiger 12 - While I support getting rid of the Tiger 1, this thing is even worse...
T-26 15
StuG III 20 - Cheap and effective.

 

[Tahuti]

T-34/76 21
T-34/85 22
Panzer I 11
Panzer II 14
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 18
Panzer V Panther 20
Panzer VI Tiger I 8
T-70 15
SU-76 15
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 18
M4A3E8 Sherman 16
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 16
KV-1 15
KV-2 14
IS-2 17
IS-3 15
Matilda 17
Cromwell 15
Churchill III 13
M18 Hellcat 17
M26 Pershing 11
M3 Stuart 14
M4 Sherman Firefly 20
7TP 13
Type 95 Ha-Go 13
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 15
Jagdtiger 12
T-26 15
StuG III 20

 

[CaptainLost]

T-34/76 21
T-34/85 22
Panzer I 11
Panzer II 14
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 18
Panzer V Panther 20
Panzer VI Tiger I 8
T-70 15
SU-76 15
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 18
M4A3E8 Sherman 16
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 16
KV-1 15
KV-2 14
IS-2 17
IS-3 15
Matilda 17
Cromwell 15
Churchill III 13
M18 Hellcat 19 SPEED...
M26 Pershing 11
M3 Stuart 14
M4 Sherman Firefly 20
7TP 13
Type 95 Ha-Go 13
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 15
Jagdtiger 10 Heavy tanks are cool, but seriously, there is a point where it's just too much. The Jagdtiger is an example.
T-26 15
StuG III 20

 

[MilesGregarius]

T-34/76 21
T-34/85 22
Panzer I 9 - Training vehicle never even meant for actual combat. Inferior even to similarly armed 1930s light tanks such as the Vickers Mk VI.
Panzer II 14
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 18
Panzer V Panther 20
Panzer VI Tiger I 10 - Often overrated, but still a very potent weapon system - see Villers-Bocage, for example.
T-70 15
SU-76 15
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 18
M4A3E8 Sherman 16
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 16
KV-1 15
KV-2 14
IS-2 17
IS-3 15
Matilda 17
Cromwell 15
Churchill III 13
M18 Hellcat 19
M26 Pershing 11
M3 Stuart 14
M4 Sherman Firefly 20
7TP 13
Type 95 Ha-Go 13
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 15
Jagdtiger 10
T-26 15
StuG III 20

 

[GoodGame]

The Panzer IV was certainly decent for its time, and besides the Panzer V more or less the only German AFV design that wasn't BS. However, because Hitler wanted to focus on land-battleships that were awfully unreliable, the Panzer IV concept wasn't further developed upon. And besides the Panzer V, did not produce any tank designs that were particularly great or useful after that.

Ironically, while the Germans are mystified for their horrible tank designs, they did produce the StG 44, which might very well be the best small arm of the war. However, you don't hear anything about that.

Well the Germans did try to a hybrid IV / V build I've read (on Wikipedia ;/) that failed to extend the usefulness of the IV's engine/hull. Anyone have any better references on that?

Overall, it seems like the Germans thought the IV made a nice utility hull, but wasn't what they needed in anti-tank capacity. Could the IV have mounted guns to take on a KV or IS tank?

 

[r16]

this thread elsewhere about a What-if might be helpful perhaps . Could be barely used to justify that the PzKw IV was quite light to do what was expected of a German tank for the late WW2 period .

 

[PhroX]

Well the Germans did try to a hybrid IV / V build I've read (on Wikipedia ;/) that failed to extend the usefulness of the IV's engine/hull. Anyone have any better references on that?

Overall, it seems like the Germans thought the IV made a nice utility hull, but wasn't what they needed in anti-tank capacity. Could the IV have mounted guns to take on a KV or IS tank?

AFAIK, the standard PzIV turret was pretty much at its limit with the guns they did mount on it - anything larger was unfeasible. In addition to trying the standard PzV turret, I believe there were also plans to mount the proposed Schmalturm with a 75mm L/70 on the PzIV but this never got anywhere before the war ended.

 

[Tahuti]

T-34/76 21
T-34/85 22
Panzer I 7 - Useless piece of crap, and even inferior to the Vickers 6 ton tank from the 1920s
Panzer II 14
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 19 - Pretty decent German tank, so I'll continue to give + points for this one
Panzer V Panther 20
Panzer VI Tiger I 10
T-70 15
SU-76 15
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 18
M4A3E8 Sherman 16
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 16
KV-1 15
KV-2 14
IS-2 17
IS-3 15
Matilda 17
Cromwell 15
Churchill III 13
M18 Hellcat 19
M26 Pershing 11
M3 Stuart 14
M4 Sherman Firefly 20
7TP 13
Type 95 Ha-Go 13
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 16 - Decent piece of armor that built upon the Panzer V
Jagdtiger 10
T-26 15
StuG III 20

 

[MilesGregarius]

T-34/76 21
T-34/85 22
Panzer I 5 - simply never should have seen combat
Panzer II 14
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 19
Panzer V Panther 21 - mobile, tough to kill, possessing probably the best tank gun of the war
Panzer VI Tiger I 10
T-70 15
SU-76 15
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 18
M4A3E8 Sherman 16
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 16
KV-1 15
KV-2 14
IS-2 17
IS-3 15
Matilda 17
Cromwell 16 - solid, reliable design; surprisingly mobile
Churchill III 13
M18 Hellcat 19
M26 Pershing 11
M3 Stuart 14
M4 Sherman Firefly 20
7TP 13
Type 95 Ha-Go 13
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 16
Jagdtiger 10
T-26 15
StuG III 20

There is a distinct lack of Czech [LT vz 38 - aka the excellent Panzer 38 (t),] Italian [so they can be voted down,] French [limited, but surprisingly decent] and other British [A9, A10, Crusader, Valentine, Mk VI] designs on this list.

 

[CaptainLost]

There is a distinct lack of Czech [LT vz 38 - aka the excellent Panzer 38 (t),] Italian [so they can be voted down,] French [limited, but surprisingly decent] and other British [A9, A10, Crusader, Valentine, Mk VI] designs on this list.

Thank you Miles, I was just thinking that this list was missing tanks the other day, so I tried to come up with a fair way to get any tank back on the list.
Here's what I got:
At the same time as you do a normal point taking/giving, you can also 1) take a point from/eliminate five vehicles in the list below and 2) give five points to vehicles on the list below.
Once a vehicle reaches 5 total points it gets added to the game. Sound good?

Spoiler Tank List :

Panzer 35(t)
Panzer 38(t) 2
AMR 33
AMR 35
FCM 36
Hotchkiss H35 1
Renault FT 1
Renault R35
Renault R40
Char B1 1
Canon de 194 mle GPF
SOMUA S35 1
AMC 34
AMC 35
Fiat 3000
Hummel
Grille
Marder I
Marder II
Marder III
Nashorn (Hornisse)
Elefant
StuG IV
Brummbar
Sturmtiger
Toldi
40M Turan I
Fiat L6/40
Fiat M11/39
Fiat M13/40 1
Fiat M14/41
Carro Armato M15/42
Fiat M16/43
Carro Armato P 40
Semovente 47/32
Semovente 90/53
Semovente 75/18
Semovente 75/34
Semovente 105/25
Type 94 TK
Type 97 Te-ke
Type 98 Ke-Ni
Type 5 Ke-Ho
Type 89 I-Go
Type 97 Chi-Ha
Type 1 Chi-He
Type 3 Chi-Nu
Type 4 Chi-To
Type 5 Chi-Ri
Type 95 Heavy Tank
Type 2 Ka-Mi
Type 3 Ka-Chi
Type 5 To-Ku
Type 1 Ho-Ni I
Type 3 Ho-Ni III
Type 4 Ho-Ro
TKS
10TP
T-50
T-28
T-44
T-35
KV-3
KV-4
KV-1S 1
IS-1
SU-85 1
SU-100
SU-122
SU-152
SU-1
AT-1
SU-5
SU-6
SU-26
NI Tank
Light Tank Mk VI
Light Tank Mk VII Tetrach
Light Tank Mk VIII
Vickers 6-Ton
A39 Tortoise
Churchill Mk IV
Cruiser Mk I
Cruiser Mk II
Cruiser Mk III
Cruiser Mk IV
Covenanter
Crusader
Cavalier
Cruiser Mk VIII Challenger
Comet Tank
Centurion
Cromwell
Valentine Tank
Valiant Tank
Black Prince
Bishop
Deacon
Sexton
Archer
M10 Wolverine
M2 Light Tank
M22 Locust
M6 Heavy Tank
T30 Heavy Tank
M2 Medium
M36 TD
T40/M9 TD
M7 Priest
Howitzer Motor Carriage M8
M40 GMC
BT-2
BT-7 1

 

[MilesGregarius]

The Cromwell's already on the list. The Italian L3/35 tankette deserves to at least be mentioned as it was the most numerous AFV in Italian service. The Soviet BT series - which were ridiculously fast, if mechanically unreliable, and played a fairly major role in the Winter War and early in WWII - is also absent.

My up votes are based on the vehicle's importance as much as its effectiveness.

Promotion candidates:

1. Panzer 38(t) - One of the best tanks in the world in its day.
2. Renault FT - WWI design that essentially gave birth to the tank as we know it: main armament in a fully-rotating turret, rear engine, driver forward
3. SOMUA S35 - Crippled by the one-man turret that the French just couldn't seem to get pass, but otherwise an excellent design - well armored, reliable, decent speed.
4. Fiat M13/40 - Primary Italian vehicle; frankly terrible, but needed to give the Italians some representation.
5. SU-85 - the Russian StuG, fast, reliable, effective.

None of my down-voted choices went beyond the mock-up/prototype stage, so can't really be considered. (Same could be said of others.)

Relegation candidates:

1. Panzer VIII Maus
2. Panzer E-100
3. T29 Heavy Tank
4. T28 Super Heavy Tank
5. T55E1 Gun Motor Carriage

 

[CaptainLost]

The list now includes BT tanks, thanks for mentioning those. Also, the points you gave/took have been recorded on the list.

My five candidates:

Panzer 38(t)--a great tank, so great that the Germans adopted it in their own army after annexing Czechoslovakia, which alone says something about the tank.

BT-7--the most advanced BT tank.

KV-1S--a pretty cool tank although it had little impact in the actual war.

Char B1--very effective against the tanks it faced although it had speed issues.

Hotchkiss H35--a good match for German tanks and had very good armor for its time.

My five reductions:

T15 Light Tank--unlike other tanks the Germans faced, the T15 was not only outnumbered but outclassed. Being just a step above an armored car and armed only with a machine gun made this tank fairly useless when the time came for war.

TOG I--only a prototype.
TOG II--same story.

KV-5--didn't even get as far as a prototype before the project was cancelled.

Vickers Medium Mk II--as far as anyone knows only one of these tanks actually saw combat in the war. And it was underpowered and underarmed.

And, for my real elimination:

T-34/76 21
T-34/85 23
Panzer I 3
Panzer II 14
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 19
Panzer V Panther 22
Panzer VI Tiger I 10
T-70 15
SU-76 15
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 18
M4A3E8 Sherman 16
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 16
KV-1 15
KV-2 14
IS-2 17
IS-3 15
Matilda 17
Cromwell 16
Churchill III 13
M18 Hellcat 19
M26 Pershing 11
M3 Stuart 14
M4 Sherman Firefly 20
7TP 13
Type 95 Ha-Go 13
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 16
Jagdtiger 10
T-26 15
StuG III 20

I picked two tanks with my favorite guns and one with my least favorite gun (for a tank, at least).

 

[CaptainLost]

This time I decided to pick the tanks I think looked the coolest, and the two I think looked the worst.

T-34/76 21
T-34/85 23
Panzer I 3
Panzer II 14
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 19
Panzer V Panther 22
Panzer VI Tiger I 10
T-70 15
SU-76 15
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 18
M4A3E8 Sherman 16
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 17
KV-1 15
KV-2 13 The turret just looks...clunky.
IS-2 17
IS-3 15
Matilda 17
Cromwell 16
Churchill III 13
M18 Hellcat 19
M26 Pershing 11
M3 Stuart 14
M4 Sherman Firefly 21 The normal Sherman already looks good, but the Firefly is even better.
7TP 13
Type 95 Ha-Go 13
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 16
Jagdtiger 11
T-26 15
StuG III 20