xUPT

[lemonjelly]

But, our access means we get loads of other stuff before

 

[Brokenbone]

I'm really looking forward to xUPT somehow coming to RIFE, I'd really like to see how it plays including how much more tactical the use of magic may have to become, if you choose the option in your games, and are fairly aggressive about limitations on stack size. A mage only able to haste buff his own stack? A cultist damaging neighbouring friendlies if he's a little too wild with the tsunamis? Assassins only being able to pick the weakest of the 5 (or 10, or 15) guys in a stack, as opposed to the weakest of 50?

I've been having a lot of fun with this in ROM:AND, usually starting the "early game" with stacks of no more than 5, and increasing it as the eras advance, it forces you to think hard about the role of each of your groups (armies), what their strength will be, and what they need to be protected from. One or two armies composed of two tough melee units and three siege units each, an army of five cavalry to do basic harassment and pillaging, an army of maybe three city-cracking melee supported by two archers to try and keep these soon-to-be-wounded guys safe... you end up remembering to specialize when the chance for promos comes up. "Oh, these guys are in the city cracking unit, more city raider promos" or "Gee, the archers defending the often wounded city crackers can take Medic I, that may be handy", etc. It at least creates a different situation than a group of 20 guys who are all in one stack and can probably handle anything since the forces are so mixed. *shrugs* Since it's all optional it becomes a matter of taste, playstyle, etc., but you may find yourself blocking roads from reinforcements just because units can't all share the same tile, or having some forces get a plum spot on a forested hill, but some being stuck vulnerable in the low-defense desert and hoping not to get jumped, again, things get a little more interesting.

Like I said, looking forward, good luck with integration / interface hurdles!

 

[Iceciro]

I'd like to see it come to RIFE as I use it extensively in RoM.

Though I would say wait until 1.74 before merging any features - that's the next version, and Aforess is going to have the options set up to not cause OOS which I gather you people are trying to avoid.

Also, the first posts mentions you're not using the BUG mod interface : why the hell not? I greatly miss all of the data available to me in RoM when playing any other mod.

 

[Opera]

Because it's lot of work. Some of it will make it to the game but most won't, at least for now I guess

 

[Iceciro]

Why do all of the time consuming things have to be SDK based >_>

Also, hello RIFE team. Like what you've done with the place while I've been away.

 

[Valkrionn]

I'd like to see it come to RIFE as I use it extensively in RoM.

Though I would say wait until 1.74 before merging any features - that's the next version, and Aforess is going to have the options set up to not cause OOS which I gather you people are trying to avoid.

Also, the first posts mentions you're not using the BUG mod interface : why the hell not? I greatly miss all of the data available to me in RoM when playing any other mod.

Do you know when 1.74 will come out? If it prevents an OOS, I'd much rather have that version.

No, we aren't using the BUG interface; I don't personally use most of that modcomp when it's available to me, and I don't really want to spend the time required merging it. Better things to do with my time. If anyone wanted to merge it, and release as a modmod, I'd definitely put a link up. But I'm not going to do it myself.

Why do all of the time consuming things have to be SDK based >_>

Also, hello RIFE team. Like what you've done with the place while I've been away.

Heh. Thank you. The team has expanded... Myself, Grey Fox, Opera, KillerClowns, and Vermicious Knid. And of course, the 'Interns', the people with Team Forum access, whose input is invaluable.

 

[Iceciro]

Do you know when 1.74 will come out? If it prevents an OOS, I'd much rather have that version.

No, we aren't using the BUG interface; I don't personally use most of that modcomp when it's available to me, and I don't really want to spend the time required merging it. Better things to do with my time. If anyone wanted to merge it, and release as a modmod, I'd definitely put a link up. But I'm not going to do it myself.

1.74's in early beta status, so Soon(TM)

Bah humbug. I might sit down and puzzle out the effort required to merge parts of it then, but not today. Marathon speed RoM game today

 

[Afforess]

Do you know when 1.74 will come out? If it prevents an OOS, I'd much rather have that version.

No need to wait that long. I don't hide my source files and dev files like you guys do.

That said, I switched the option to a new enum and saved them as int's in the CvGame. It's a rather large change so that all of my options become MP compatible, and since you only are looking for xUPT, there is an easier way:

The easiest way to make xUPT MP compatible in Rife is to create a new int saved in CvGlobals for how many units per tile (set from python the way you have it now), and when it get's changed, send a ModNetMessage out to other players, changing their values too. If you need help with that, I can lend a hand.

 

[Valkrionn]

No need to wait that long. I don't hide my source files and dev files like you guys do.

That said, I switched the option to a new enum and saved them as int's in the CvGame. It's a rather large change so that all of my options become MP compatible, and since you only are looking for xUPT, there is an easier way:

The easiest way to make xUPT MP compatible in Rife is to create a new int saved in CvGlobals for how many units per tile (set from python the way you have it now), and when it get's changed, send a ModNetMessage out to other players, changing their values too. If you need help with that, I can lend a hand.

Heh. We don't hide our source files from everyone intentionally, we just don't want players getting ahold of buggy material... Or have our stuff merged before it's fully implemented.

I'll try to get that in; Never messed with ModNet, but it shouldn't be too hard.

 

[GambleFish]

Pie sounds good. Make it a resource you can build, like ale from the brewery. Cheesecake factory perhaps? Nom

Anyways, I love the stack limit, kinda reminds of a Total War game, with a usually 20 unit limit. Makes it much more tactical (at least it would if it was regular civ, sans heroes )

My only qualm is that while I definitely want to play with it, it makes my poor summoned beasties much less useful, as I can't have more than a half stack of mages If I want to be able to summon units. Needless to say, that can be quite bad if facing a full stack of large angry trolls.

Is there any way to, I don't know, make units that will "die at the start of owner's next turn" not count towards the unit limit? Hmm that actually sounds really complicated, maybe not.

Yeah I know I could always turn the dang option off or play without summoners, it's kind of a minor deal. Maybe just keep it in mind when you're coding, if there's an easy fix.

Not really sure what I just asked but

 

[Opera]

I think Valkrionn said (non-Permanent) Summons wouldn't count toward the tile's limit

 

[GambleFish]

I think Valkrionn said (non-Permanent) Summons wouldn't count toward the tile's limit

Ooo awesome but how about skeletons? I always did enjoy keeping about 10 necromancers sending kamikaze skellies every turn. But non-permanent summons is pretty much golden, sounds awesome. Thanks!

 

[Valkrionn]

Actually, summons count as half. And they will start on the plot, regardless of limit; They just won't be able to move back ONTO it if you move them, or move the stack.

 

[Opera]

So if I have 10UPT, 5 mages on a tile can each have up to 2 summons with them? Sounds fine. You should make that configurable though

 

[Valkrionn]

So if I have 10UPT, 5 mages on a tile can each have up to 2 summons with them? Sounds fine. You should make that configurable though

Probably will, yes.

 

[Brokenbone]

I think (as V suggested above), you can have units somehow mysteriously end up on the same tile as a to-the-limit army, the UPT stuff really kicks in when people try to move units to a full tile. That's at least the way I've seen it work with cities, you could be pumping out a defender a turn, end up with a stack of 100 guys in a "normally 10 is the limit" situation, just if you moved a guy out to zap a barbarian, where you put him after that is your problem, as the city is full. I'd imagine 10 mages ending up with ten spectres could be a stack of 20 briefly, send the spectres off wherever and they won't be coming back to crowd the mages.

 

[Valkrionn]

I think (as V suggested above), you can have units somehow mysteriously end up on the same tile as a to-the-limit army, the UPT stuff really kicks in when people try to move units to a full tile. That's at least the way I've seen it work with cities, you could be pumping out a defender a turn, end up with a stack of 100 guys in a "normally 10 is the limit" situation, just if you moved a guy out to zap a barbarian, where you put him after that is your problem, as the city is full. I'd imagine 10 mages ending up with ten spectres could be a stack of 20 briefly, send the spectres off wherever and they won't be coming back to crowd the mages.

Right, though that won't happen in cities.

 

[Ghostslayer]

I think this limitation can be a good thing, but there may be some problems with the limitation in cities. Some civs (like kurios) have a limited number of large cities, while others (dovs, austrins, chislevs) generally are played with a large number of smaller cities, and this may lead to a balance problem.
What I suggest is that the city limitation takes into account the size of the city. For instance, if there is a limit for a L for a stack outside a city, the city limit could be L*(1+city_pop/15). So a pop 1 city gives no benefit, a pop 12 allows to double the size, at pop 24 it is X3, etc. The limit should of course change continuously with the pop and the parameter 12 (or whatever) can also be civ specific...

 

[Calavente]

your proposition is interesting but on the other hand, it would become impossible to attack a 24 size city. (attacking 3 *L units, defended on a city, with only some Lsized stacks)
habitually we say we need about 3times the numbers of defenders. with magic, it can be reduced a bit but... what if the AI learns to use magic ? it would even the odds.

attacking a 3L defended city would mean having ... 9 L sized-stacks around the city !! (there are only 8 tiles around the city, and that if there are no sea-tiles, mountains...)
it would be nill-impossible !

 

[Falc]

attacking a 3L defended city would mean having ... 9 L sized-stacks around the city !! (there are only 8 tiles around the city, and that if there are no sea-tiles, mountains...)
it would be nill-impossible !

Cavalry could attack from 2 tiles away.