Yield value discussion (food vs others)

[Gazebo]

I don't like the era requirement for wonders. We'll experience beelining all the time, just to get to the next set of wonders. I assume we players wouldn't actually slack off getting the right amount of SP's to make this possible. The era-scaling bonuses from a myriad of sources are already enough of an incentive for this. I find the early eras very short-lived as it is.

Also, how would the wonders in the tech tree look like? Will their icons still be show on techs in their corresponding eras, or will there be a sub-panel which shows all wonders unlocked in which eras? The former would be hideously unaesthetic and inconvenient for new players.

I thought the idea of introducing the SP requirement for wonders was to prevent the tech leader from hogging all the wonders? Players with disproportionate tech levels relative to their culture should have to wait a bit until they meet the policy requirements. Players who have a good balance of tech and culture should still have access to the wonders by the time they reach its tech requirement. And culturally sophisticated ones will get the finisher wonders faster.

Roughly correct, though if you have the proper amount of Social Policies the wonder will become available even if you lack the techs (and vice-versa). So tech leaders still have a viable wonder strategy, though they'll lose out to many Social Policy wonders and perhaps ideology wonders as well.

G

 

[Tomice]

Roughly correct, though if you have the proper amount of Social Policies the wonder will become available even if you lack the techs (and vice-versa). So tech leaders still have a viable wonder strategy, though they'll lose out to many Social Policy wonders and perhaps ideology wonders as well.

G

Wait, are you planning to let several wonders unlock at once when a player reaches an Era? I thought you would still let them unlock with techs, just allowing an alternative unlock through policies?

Having 5-10 wonders unlock at once when reaching a new Era seems like a really bad choice to me. Era changes are rewarding enough as they are, no need to further emphasize them.

It would force players to beeline Eras, taking away choice.
It would also create very few moments of overwhelming choices, interrupted by excessively long periods largely without them. Racing for wonders is one of the most interesting aspects about the game - pacemaker, gamble and carrot-on-a-stick all at once.

I trust your judgement, but please consider the pros and cons well before doing this.

 

[Gazebo]

Wait, are you planning to let several wonders unlock at once when a player reaches an Era? I thought you would still let them unlock with techs, just allowing an alternative unlock through policies?

Having 5-10 wonders unlock at once when reaching a new Era seems like a really bad choice to me. Era changes are rewarding enough as they are, no need to further emphasize them.

It would force players to beeline Eras, taking away choice.
It would also create very few moments of overwhelming choices, interrupted by excessively long periods largely without them. Racing for wonders is one of the most interesting aspects about the game - pacemaker, gamble and carrot-on-a-stick all at once.

I trust your judgement, but please consider the pros and cons well before doing this.

Nothing to do with Era, not sure where you are getting that from. Wonders are still on the same techs as before, but you can - alternatively- gain the social policies required to gain access to them.

G

 

[attorneyatlol]

Wait, are you planning to let several wonders unlock at once when a player reaches an Era? I thought you would still let them unlock with techs, just allowing an alternative unlock through policies?

Having 5-10 wonders unlock at once when reaching a new Era seems like a really bad choice to me. Era changes are rewarding enough as they are, no need to further emphasize them.

It would force players to beeline Eras, taking away choice.
It would also create very few moments of overwhelming choices, interrupted by excessively long periods largely without them. Racing for wonders is one of the most interesting aspects about the game - pacemaker, gamble and carrot-on-a-stick all at once.

I trust your judgement, but please consider the pros and cons well before doing this.

Agreed, I don't understand the reasoning behind unlocking all of an era's wonders at once upon reaching said era. It's already detrimental not to beeline into the next era (CS yields, abilities that scale by era, extra spies, etc.). No need to compound that.

 

[Gazebo]

Agreed, I don't understand the reasoning behind unlocking all of an era's wonders at once upon reaching said era. It's already detrimental not to beeline into the next era (CS yields, abilities that scale by era, extra spies, etc.). No need to compound that.

I have no idea where you all are getting this era stuff from. Am I going insane?

G

 

[tu_79]

All Wonders will have both an era requirement and a policy # requirement. Reaching either will grant access to the wonder. We can add further exclusions later, but that's the current 'core' of the system. Wonders will stay in the tech tree this way, and it's simple enough to limit confusion.

G

You just said it yesterday. But I believe you are making it more interesting. Is it something like this:?

Oracle - Research Philosophy AND [(Have any 5 SP) OR (Research 5 more techs)]

Hanging Gardens - Research Architecture AND [(Finish Tradition) OR (Research 8 more techs)]

Great Library - Just Research Writing

 

[attorneyatlol]

I have no idea where you all are getting this era stuff from. Am I going insane?

G

You said era the other day, as pointed out above. Must've just been a typo, you meant tech.

 

[Tomice]

All Wonders will have both an era requirement and a policy # requirement. Reaching either will grant access to the wonder. We can add further exclusions later, but that's the current 'core' of the system. Wonders will stay in the tech tree this way, and it's simple enough to limit confusion.

G

Exactly, it's this post. I initially understood you right, but then you confirmed this post which criticized Era-based unlocks for wonders:

I don't like the era requirement for wonders. We'll experience beelining all the time, just to get to the next set of wonders. I assume we players wouldn't actually slack off getting the right amount of SP's to make this possible. The era-scaling bonuses from a myriad of sources are already enough of an incentive for this. I find the early eras very short-lived as it is.

Also, how would the wonders in the tech tree look like? Will their icons still be show on techs in their corresponding eras, or will there be a sub-panel which shows all wonders unlocked in which eras? The former would be hideously unaesthetic and inconvenient for new players.

Roughly correct

So I started worrying
Sorry for the confusion

 

[Gazebo]

You just said it yesterday. But I believe you are making it more interesting. Is it something like this:?

Oracle - Research Philosophy AND [(Have any 5 SP) OR (Research 5 more techs)]

Hanging Gardens - Research Architecture AND [(Finish Tradition) OR (Research 8 more techs)]

Great Library - Just Research Writing

No, that's not the system.

Said what? Eras? If I did, that was a typo. Techs and Policies, that's the current system.

It'll be:

Pyramids: Research Calendar OR unlock 3 Social Policies
Great Library: Research Writing OR unlock 5 Social Policies

etc etc.

Here's the current WIP list, for those interested:

Spoiler :

UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '35' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_CERN' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '35' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_GREAT_FIREWALL' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '35' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_HUBBLE' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '28' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_SYDNEY_OPERA_HOUSE' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '28' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_CN_TOWER' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '25' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_BLETCHLEY_PARK' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '24' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_PENTAGON' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '20' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_BROADWAY' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '19' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_PRORA' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '19' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_EMPIRE_STATE_BUILDING' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '19' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_STATUE_OF_LIBERTY' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '19' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_MOTHERLAND_STATUE' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '20' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_CRISTO_REDENTOR' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '15' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_NEUSCHWANSTEIN' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '15' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_EIFFEL_TOWER' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '15' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_LOUVRE' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '14' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_SLATER_MILL' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '12' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_RED_FORT' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '12' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_SISTINE_CHAPEL' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '12' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_TAJ_MAHAL' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '11' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_LEANING_TOWER' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '11' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_GLOBE_THEATER' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '11' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_CHICHEN_ITZA' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '11' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_HIMEJI_CASTLE' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '9' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_NOTRE_DAME' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '8' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_MACHU_PICHU' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '8' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_ALHAMBRA' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '9' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_BOROBUDUR' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '8' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_HAGIA_SOPHIA' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '8' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_KREMLIN' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '6' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_ANGKOR_WAT' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '6' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_GREAT_WALL' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '6' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_ORACLE' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '6' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_COLOSSUS' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '5' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_GREAT_LIGHTHOUSE' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '5' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_GREAT_LIBRARY' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '3' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_PETRA' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '3' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_TEMPLE_ARTEMIS' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '3' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_MAUSOLEUM_HALICARNASSUS' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '3' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_STATUE_ZEUS' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '3' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_PYRAMID' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '3' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_STONEHENGE' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

No, that's not the system.

Said what? Eras? If I did, that was a typo. Techs and Policies, that's the current system.

It'll be:

Pyramids: Research Calendar OR unlock 3 Social Policies
Great Library: Research Writing OR unlock 5 Social Policies

etc etc.

Here's the current WIP list, for those interested:

Spoiler :

UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '35' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_CERN' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '35' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_GREAT_FIREWALL' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '35' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_HUBBLE' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '28' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_SYDNEY_OPERA_HOUSE' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '28' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_CN_TOWER' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '25' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_BLETCHLEY_PARK' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '24' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_PENTAGON' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '20' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_BROADWAY' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '19' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_PRORA' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '19' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_EMPIRE_STATE_BUILDING' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '19' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_STATUE_OF_LIBERTY' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '19' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_MOTHERLAND_STATUE' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '20' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_CRISTO_REDENTOR' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '15' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_NEUSCHWANSTEIN' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '15' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_EIFFEL_TOWER' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '15' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_LOUVRE' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '14' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_SLATER_MILL' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '12' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_RED_FORT' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '12' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_SISTINE_CHAPEL' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '12' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_TAJ_MAHAL' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '11' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_LEANING_TOWER' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '11' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_GLOBE_THEATER' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '11' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_CHICHEN_ITZA' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '11' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_HIMEJI_CASTLE' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '9' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_NOTRE_DAME' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '8' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_MACHU_PICHU' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '8' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_ALHAMBRA' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '9' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_BOROBUDUR' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '8' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_HAGIA_SOPHIA' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '8' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_KREMLIN' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '6' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_ANGKOR_WAT' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '6' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_GREAT_WALL' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '6' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_ORACLE' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '6' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_COLOSSUS' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '5' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_GREAT_LIGHTHOUSE' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '5' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_GREAT_LIBRARY' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '3' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_PETRA' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '3' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_TEMPLE_ARTEMIS' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '3' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_MAUSOLEUM_HALICARNASSUS' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '3' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_STATUE_ZEUS' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '3' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_PYRAMID' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );
UPDATE Buildings SET NumPoliciesNeeded = '3' WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_STONEHENGE' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_BUILDINGS' AND Value= 1 );

Interesting, we'll see how it plays out. Does it count Policy opener as a Policy or not? If not I think all wonders of an era will be gotten too quickly.

Another question - are some wonders still locked behind Policy trees? Or is it all behind tech/sopol and those policy requirements are removed?

 

[Tomice]

Just some random confusion, let's forget it

Here's the current WIP list, for those interested:

I totally dig the new system! Could turn out to be a huge improvement.

Regarding numbers, they look about right on a first glance. I'll say more about it when I get a chance to fire up the game later on.

 

[tu_79]

Thanks for clarifying, we were going crazy, hehe.

 

[Gazebo]

Interesting, we'll see how it plays out. Does it count Policy opener as a Policy or not? If not I think all wonders of an era will be gotten too quickly.

Another question - are some wonders still locked behind Policy trees? Or is it all behind tech/sopol and those policy requirements are removed?

Openers count, but finishers do not. Simple rule: if you click a button for it, it counts. It also ignores 'dummy' policies some modders use, so JFD, you can breathe a sigh of relief if you are reading this.

Wonders not listed are locked behind branches, yes, though you have to actually finish the tree to get them (no more 'cherry picking' wonders that way - this is a buff for culture players).

G

 

[tu_79]

I suggest keeping NumPoliciesNeeded very low for scientific and production wonders, very high for cultural wonders, and balanced for the rest.

 

[grmagne]

Will this cause Poland to become overpowered? They're already quite strong and this would directly help them a lot.

Overall, I'm quite intrigued by all these proposals. I never predicted you would take science & culture in this direction but I feel like this could really add a lot of interesting decisions throughout the game.

 

[grmagne]

Will this cause Poland to become overpowered? They're already quite strong and this would directly help them a lot.

Overall, I'm quite intrigued by all these proposals. I never predicted you would take science & culture in this direction but I feel like this could really add a lot of interesting decisions throughout the game.

I see there was already a suggestion to ignore the Oracle free policy and Poland UA from the SP count. Makes sense.

 

[Wodhann]

Nothing to do with Era, not sure where you are getting that from. Wonders are still on the same techs as before, but you can - alternatively- gain the social policies required to gain access to them.

G

But even if you get them via policies, eras are still a minimum requirement right? Just to prevent weird anachronisms.

 

[Gazebo]

But even if you get them via policies, eras are still a minimum requirement right? Just to prevent weird anachronisms.

No, no era requirement. I do not see an issue with anachronism in that regard, much like I do not see an anachronism if a science player gets into the renaissance around 500AD. It may happen, and that's fine. The values are spread out enough that they should limit such things to extreme cases.

G

 

[Atlas627]

I see that we have here three schools of thinking.

1. People that will equate benefits for all play styles so in the end it won't matter which path you choose. You could decide the last turns what type of victory you're going to achieve.
2. People that prefer to be able to build everything just when they see fit to the conditions of the current game play. Adjustment is key and wrong choices will make you fail.
3. People that want every play style to feel different, strengthen every strength, but with equal chances of winning. You can win with any play style or victory condition in mind, but at the end you are committed with that victory condition and others are unlike.

Let me illustrate.
People from the first group will give sources of culture for scientific civs and sources of science for cultural civs, gold for militaristic civs and improved defence for pacific ones. They want to secure some wonders for civs that are late so they can catch up. In the end, players do different things but they arrive to the same point.
People from the second group prefer to let the choice free. If they think they are going to need money, they will rush for the Colossus. Side effect is that tech leaders get first to every wonder.
People from the last group will secure the Great Library for scientifically focused civs, and Oracle for culture focused ones. But a level 3 ideological tenet should be as powerful as being technologically one era ahead. Being a diplomatic power should be a threat to everybody all by their diplomatic advantages (more friends, defence pacts, gifts). Militaristic civs get their advantage by highly experienced units and generals (and a weak AI). The problem is that currently nothing compares to be to technologically advanced.

Before locking wonders for play styles, we should decide if those wonders are to enhance the strengths further or to make up for weaknesses. All suggestions to the date go to enhancing strengths, and restricting freedom of choice.

Additionally, if a wonder doesn't get built in its time window, it could be opened for every civ, instead of nobody building it.

The best way to do it is to have a time for all 3 approaches, and then exceptions to each rule. For example:

There are policies for all playstyles, which usually means that you want to pick what enhances your plan for maximum efficiency. But a cultural playstyle lets you make more of those choices and more often.

You can convert techs into all playstyles, but not all at the same time. Different techs give different bonuses, and sometimes none are available that help your playstyle.

Tech can be converted into snowball in multiple ways (military, wonders, buildings), but there are comeback mechanics built in (research discovered techs faster, tech trading).

Every game mechanic has both snowball and comeback mechanics built in, except for Wonders. I am not suggesting Wonders should have a lot of comeback mechanics, but they should have some. Currently the tech leader(s) always have first shot at getting Wonders. Making that tech or culture leader(s) is better. Best is to make it an exclusive or for different wonders, and even to provide some to non-leaders which the policy system currently does.

 

[Gazebo]

The best way to do it is to have a time for all 3 approaches, and then exceptions to each rule. For example:

There are policies for all playstyles, which usually means that you want to pick what enhances your plan for maximum efficiency. But a cultural playstyle lets you make more of those choices and more often.

You can convert techs into all playstyles, but not all at the same time. Different techs give different bonuses, and sometimes none are available that help your playstyle.

Tech can be converted into snowball in multiple ways (military, wonders, buildings), but there are comeback mechanics built in (research discovered techs faster, tech trading).

Every game mechanic has both snowball and comeback mechanics built in, except for Wonders. I am not suggesting Wonders should have a lot of comeback mechanics, but they should have some. Currently the tech leader(s) always have first shot at getting Wonders. Making that tech or culture leader(s) is better. Best is to make it an exclusive or for different wonders, and even to provide some to non-leaders which the policy system currently does.

You're forgetting that every wonder you build increases the cost of future wonders.

G