Yield value discussion (food vs others)

As always, I'm happy to try it! This still sounds like a 'rich get richer' scenario to me. You need culture, science, and production to build Wonders. Its better than everything being tech all the time, but I don't think this is as good as removing some Wonders from tech entirely.

I mean, the rich getting richer is the theme of civ as a game, though. Divergence and whatnot. Keep in mind that, with the science change upcoming, you'll generally have to choose science or culture. That means that, even if you get to a tech early, you won't be able to build the wonder. If you are first to the tech and have the proper policies, then you deserve the wonder. If that keeps happening, then it is because you are playing well! :)

G
 
I mean, the rich getting richer is the theme of civ as a game, though. Divergence and whatnot. Keep in mind that, with the science change upcoming, you'll generally have to choose science or culture. That means that, even if you get to a tech early, you won't be able to build the wonder. If you are first to the tech and have the proper policies, then you deserve the wonder. If that keeps happening, then it is because you are playing well! :)

G

No game should be pure snowball. There must be comeback mechanics. Why not have some of those be Wonders? Wonders that are essentially mutually exclusive (since some require culture and some require tech) allows for diversification, which means that nobody is 100% in the lead. Everyone has a shot at certain wonders, but those in the lead can't suffocate all wonders.

Again, needing both is a better system than needing just tech, but I think removing tech from some wonders is even better.
 
No game should be pure snowball. There must be comeback mechanics. Why not have some of those be Wonders? Wonders that are essentially mutually exclusive (since some require culture and some require tech) allows for diversification, which means that nobody is 100% in the lead. Everyone has a shot at certain wonders, but those in the lead can't suffocate all wonders.

Again, needing both is a better system than needing just tech, but I think removing tech from some wonders is even better.

This is actually a good argument for having more wonders overall. If there's a lot of them, it becomes that much harder for the leader to hog them all. You could also have some wonders that a leader simply wouldn't want, similar to the Civ3 great library. Perfect for comebacks, useless to the leader.
 
This is actually a good argument for having more wonders overall. If there's a lot of them, it becomes that much harder for the leader to hog them all. You could also have some wonders that a leader simply wouldn't want, similar to the Civ3 great library. Perfect for comebacks, useless to the leader.

Sure, though gating some of them behind a yield that the leader ISNT a leader of artificially makes them "excess wonders they can't get or don't want to invest into" without having to create a whole bunch of wonders.

Current system is "tech leader" gets wonders. Suggested system is "tech+culture leader gets wonders" which leaves some flexibility and thus some choices. The system I am pushing for is "tech leader gets some, culture leader gets some, anyone who picks a different playstyle in policies gets some".
 
I had a crazy idea, but it seems way too "custom" to implement in CBP I feel. I'll say it anyway but I'm not actually suggesting it.

Imagine if every wonder had specific requirements to it, with the minimum requirement being Era. Like one wonder required you to have a certain number of policies in a policy tree, another required a certain tech, another a certain number of units (like terracota army could demand you to have one of each type), a number of trade routes of a certain type, a certain building in the city, etc etc. (This would of course mean wonders would need a whole new window of their own.)

I don't know, seemed fun in my head. Carry on.
 
I had a crazy idea, but it seems way too "custom" to implement in CBP I feel. I'll say it anyway but I'm not actually suggesting it.

Imagine if every wonder had specific requirements to it, with the minimum requirement being Era. Like one wonder required you to have a certain number of policies in a policy tree, another required a certain tech, another a certain number of units (like terracota army could demand you to have one of each type), a number of trade routes of a certain type, a certain building in the city, etc etc. (This would of course mean wonders would need a whole new window of their own.)

I don't know, seemed fun in my head. Carry on.

I had a similar idea only a few hours ago, was in the middle of writing a post here and thought: "nah, that's crazy, no will want something like that."

Apparently we're both crazy or the idea is not too bad.

If there were are criteria that could be quantified and stored in the database as yields:
number of citizens, captured cities, number of tiles worked in your civ, 1st to circumnavigate, 1st to meet all CSes, etc. AND these could be tied to wonder prerequisites, that would allow players that don't follow the science/culture/production line just to get wonders, to have access to some that others won't see.
 
I've been dreaming with sources for science.

Ancient Era.

What do we do the very early game? We explore, we meet other civs and CS, we fight barbs, and plow a farm or two.

All those could be sources for science.
+ 1 :c5science: every two tiles explored
+ 10 :c5science: every first meeting
+ 10 :c5science: every destroyed encampment
and a flat +5 :c5science: for Palace

But then, if we ever start in an isolated island, with no place for barbs spawn, we would be incredibly backwards, as realistically would be, but it isn't going to be fun. The only assets those cities have is their population, but without a library they can't improve science. So an unemployed pop might produce some science (and other things, to make up for the growth lose and unhappiness).
Unemployed: +1 :c5science: +1 :c5culture: +1 :c5faith: +1 :c5goldenage:
Or the Palace can be given a special feature that gives just this if there is unemployment in the capital. (so more than 1 unemployed pop won't be good).

Classical Era

Now we have some buildings. Library is obviously a good source of science, but others that could help a little may be the shrine (because faith people sometimes discover something) and the forge (because engineers usually help developing techs).

Mid game

For science focused civs, Caravans and Cargos may be allowed to "move" science, like they already move food and production, once library is built. This represents that the civ is spending money in research, for the gold it isn't earning from the trade route is going into beakers. OCC may require some puppets for that to work.

For diplomatic civs, their science production (and culture and units) is mostly coming from allied CS, and from trade routes to a more advanced civ.

Cultural civs don't produce as much science, but they have access to most wonders and social policies. Trade routes to a culturally influenced civ will give more science and gold than usual.

Military civs can replace the +X :c5gold: for killing an enemy unit for some amount of :c5science:. So, for a military civ, constant warfare is a must to avoid falling behind. They also need to produce more gold than before, with trade routes or pillaging.

Late game

By Modern Era, science civs will advance too fast compared with others, but it won't be enough to stop others from victory. With no time to build an army, no time to complete buildings (just the hammers for spaceship parts), no access to most of wonders, lower gold production (foreign trade routes are unprofitable), science civs can still achieve a science victory, but others will be uncommon.
 
We still haven't decided how many SPs should be required to unlock a wonder. I believe we can create a system where different playstyles get access to certain wonders (earlier) by just tweaking those numbers / giving each wonder an unique, hand-chosen requirement.

Instead of a rigid system (someone suggested earlier to make the required SPs equal the number of columns in the tech tree) I suggest to choose certain wonders that are "reserved" for culture-focused players.
Those would still need a tech (if only to appear on the tech-tree) but also get a non-trivial, relatively hard to fulfill policy requirement.

Other wonders that we choose to be reserved for tech-leaders could theoretically get an easy-to-fulfill policy requirement, but if it is supposed to be trivial I'd rather drop it altogether to avoid confusion.

As example:
The great library would still have the same position on the tech tree it has now. But additionally, it would need 4 unlocked SPs. This means it would no longer strengthen the tech leader even further, but be a tool for the culture leader to catch up technologically (which would also be flavorful - a library is a sign of advanced culture).

Another example:
Slater mill should not get a culture requirement, as the industrialization is clearly an era where technology dominated over everything else. Culture was not needed for the invention of steam engines.
 
I've been dreaming with sources for science.

Ancient Era.

What do we do the very early game? We explore, we meet other civs and CS, we fight barbs, and plow a farm or two.

All those could be sources for science.
+ 1 :c5science: every two tiles explored
+ 10 :c5science: every first meeting
+ 10 :c5science: every destroyed encampment
.

Love those ideas, science from exploration is an amazing concept! We could also give each goody hut some science (in addition to their normal reward) and remove the OP free tech. If the science scales with era it would make terra maps more interesting.
 
Regarding the concern of tall vs wide balance, I was thinking that maybe new cities could impose a penalty on growth for all your cities, similar to the current penalties for culture and tech. I love the new happiness system, but I miss some game mechanic to keep civs from expanding indefinitely.

Science from exploration sounds great. Maybe archaeological sites could provide some, too?
 
Sure, though gating some of them behind a yield that the leader ISNT a leader of artificially makes them "excess wonders they can't get or don't want to invest into" without having to create a whole bunch of wonders.

Current system is "tech leader" gets wonders. Suggested system is "tech+culture leader gets wonders" which leaves some flexibility and thus some choices. The system I am pushing for is "tech leader gets some, culture leader gets some, anyone who picks a different playstyle in policies gets some".

Thats the reason i initially meantioned the possibility of lowering tech requirements of (some) wonders in addition to . Some of them could come i.e. a tech earlier, while still requireing a substantial amount of policies.
As a result you wouldnt have to be tech AND culture leader, but rather culture leader while not being absolutely terrible at techs.

The focus of wonders would be shifted towards culture, while still retaining a science/tech req.
This would also serve as a possible comeback mechanic: If someone in the upcoming beta heavily focuses on science (instead of culture; according to gazebo it will be more of a choice between those) and therefore leads in tech and related things, you could decide to shift your focus on culture and thus have a lead on several wonders.
 
I've been dreaming with sources for science.

Ancient Era.

What do we do the very early game? We explore, we meet other civs and CS, we fight barbs, and plow a farm or two.

All those could be sources for science.
+ 1 :c5science: every two tiles explored
+ 10 :c5science: every first meeting
+ 10 :c5science: every destroyed encampment
and a flat +5 :c5science: for Palace

But then, if we ever start in an isolated island, with no place for barbs spawn, we would be incredibly backwards, as realistically would be, but it isn't going to be fun. The only assets those cities have is their population, but without a library they can't improve science. So an unemployed pop might produce some science (and other things, to make up for the growth lose and unhappiness).
Unemployed: +1 :c5science: +1 :c5culture: +1 :c5faith: +1 :c5goldenage:
Or the Palace can be given a special feature that gives just this if there is unemployment in the capital. (so more than 1 unemployed pop won't be good).

I'm afraid early exploration is rewarding enough as it is. Most of us already build a scout first anyway, no need to encourage that even further. Also, it already feels very dirty to steal camps from your rival civs who did most of the damage. Similarly, it already feels annoying enough to have a rival civ/CS steal a camp from you. No need to increase the rewards for doing so, so we feel less annoyed when it happens. A better idea might be to just add science into stuff that aren't too rewarding right now.
 
Regarding the concern of tall vs wide balance, I was thinking that maybe new cities could impose a penalty on growth for all your cities, similar to the current penalties for culture and tech. I love the new happiness system, but I miss some game mechanic to keep civs from expanding indefinitely.

Science from exploration sounds great. Maybe archaeological sites could provide some, too?

I think this can be done by letting National Wonders be excellent (like doubling production of its city resource). There is only 1 NW per civ, NW can improve greatly tile yield output, and they are achievable by every civ. Cities without NW may suffer unhappiness because their tile yield output per pop will be tipically lower. So balancing production will be more difficult in wide empires. Not to mention that wide means you are overlapping tiles, increasing road maintenance and annoying neighbours
 
I'm afraid early exploration is rewarding enough as it is. Most of us already build a scout first anyway, no need to encourage that even further. Also, it already feels very dirty to steal camps from your rival civs who did most of the damage. Similarly, it already feels annoying enough to have a rival civ/CS steal a camp from you. No need to increase the rewards for doing so, so we feel less annoyed when it happens. A better idea might be to just add science into stuff that aren't too rewarding right now.

I am not sure that we can encourage exploration further. It is so rewarding as it is, that everybody is exploring ASAP. It won't change any behaviour. We could as well change the initial warrior for an explorer, and let the player chose a second explorer or a warrior.
Clearing barb camps could be frustrating as you said, though.

Any thoughts on the unemployment bonus from Palace?
 
I am not sure that we can encourage exploration further. It is so rewarding as it is, that everybody is exploring ASAP. It won't change any behaviour. We could as well change the initial warrior for an explorer, and let the player chose a second explorer or a warrior.
Clearing barb camps could be frustrating as you said, though.

Any thoughts on the unemployment bonus from Palace?

No, I don't always start with a Scout. I think most of us do, but I don't. It would definitely change my behavior if we add the science from exploration. We already get cheaper techs from meeting foreign civs, and free techs from goody huts if we're lucky.

In my personal mod, I made workers a bit cheaper (from 80 to 65, as cheap as Monuments and Shrines) and made all improvements take longer to build. So I find all opening build options viable right now.

Unemployed citizens indeed have a very small role in the game right now. They are there as a consolation for not having enough tiles/specialist slots to work on. I still think their yields should be very minimal. +1 base science might be tolerable, but no more than that. And I can't find a justification for why unemployed people give science boosts apart from "necessity is the mother of invention." If people are unemployed, they might come up with new things.
 
Some things aren't fully justified. Why honor policies provide a +:c5gold: bonus after killing a enemy unit? Do they ransom their victims? But it's convenient for warmongers, so they can stand a bigger army.

From a game POV, if we are to remove the '1pop = 1science', then we need to find another source not related with city growth in ancient era that allows for some research. Sacrificing a worker, growing pop very slowly in the very early game, for a science and culture push up, seems appropriate. It's also a reason to keep population lower.
A justification could be that first philosophers were people with nothing to do the whole day, so they spend their time creating art and thinking about life and nature. That bonus isn't good enough to push through Classical Era (and it comes at the expense of a worker), but for the first 40-50 turns it could be noticeable. It works well with isolated civs also.
 
Apparently the former, people seem to have glossed over our idea.

Not true.
I thought about other wonder requirements apart from science and culture, too.
For example, the Great Lighthouse could require the builder to own at least 3 coastal cities. This would prevent it from being "accidentally" built by an AI that doesn't really need it.

I suggest opening a separate thread and discussing the requirements for each individual wonder. Some should be left as rewards for the tech leader like before, some for the culture leader and some could get special prerequisites.

If we do it right, we could even improve the AI - if the prerquisites assure that only players truly focusing on a certain field may build a related wonder.
 
Not true.
I thought about other wonder requirements apart from science and culture, too.
For example, the Great Lighthouse could require the builder to own at least 3 coastal cities. This would prevent it from being "accidentally" built by an AI that doesn't really need it.

I suggest opening a separate thread and discussing the requirements for each individual wonder. Some should be left as rewards for the tech leader like before, some for the culture leader and some could get special prerequisites.

If we do it right, we could even improve the AI - if the prerquisites assure that only players truly focusing on a certain field may build a related wonder.
Right. But we need for gazebo to chime in before doing anything. We don't know if it's even possible.

Also remember that this would require a whole new "Wonder Window" so that players have an interface to see which wonder requires what.
 
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