Yo experts! Little help here please

[csmith963]

I'd like someone to rate my build/tech order if you would. Here lately I start with the English with Elizabeth on Noble. My usual starting strategy consists of quick tech to Hinduism and the Oracle slingshot to Metalcasting. Wonders I go for in the beginning in order of when I build them: Oracle, Parthenon, Great Library.

Tech towards Hinduism (9 times out of 10 get it)

While this is happening I'm building a barracks until the city is size 3, then go to worker. The switch to worker usually happens within a turn or two of my founding Hindusim. Once the worker is finished I complete the barracks.

I'll usually build two warriors at this point. Tech path after Hinduism is Bronze, Wheel, Priesthood (begin oracle), pottery then Iron Working. I try to have a settler ready once ironworking is done to gurantee I have access to it. This would be my second city.

From Pottery it gets a little more freelance. Depending on what resources I have around my cities. I'll usually work Animal Husbandry in but I'll eventually tech to Literature, then build the Great Library.


The problem I have is that by the time I get my second city out there, the AI usually has 4 or 5, so it severely limits my options when I go to found cities 3 and 4. Do you guys see any areas I can tweak to make the process more efficient? Are there things you think I can do without?

 

[Krick19]

I'm on Noble as well, and I never try to get an early religion unless spiritual, I rather tech Bronze or AH, or more often, the ones that give you worker techs.

I also build warrior/workboat(if I have seafood)-worker-settler, and use my first warrior to explore.

This is all quite general, because I might aim for something like stonehenge with Egypt, or go for a rush with Immortals.

 

[Sjaramei]

Uhm.. all the wonders? And waiting for Iron working to come in before settling 2nd city? (In my games it's the 4th city which takes Iron) If you have bronze settle near that with 2nd settler, if you had animals in capital and teched AH quick settle near horse, if you got neither tech archery and find Iron later

The problem is your opening, the expansion is very weak. (I do worker-grow size 2- settler opening most of the time, so my 2nd city is quick)

And going for hinduism without mysticism is a waste. I would rather do the writing/priesthood oracle sling for CoL if you want a religion. (Much better tech for Liz, early caste system means lots of GS early ,early courthouses to pay some maintenance is a bonus too)

 

[Refar]

England does not start with Misticism. Pursuing a early religion has very high opportunity cost, as you need to make 2 techs.

Instead england does start with mining, which allows for teching Bronze Working first. That is a important economic (whip/chop/reveal copper) and military (axe) tech.

Depending on what ressources you have at hand - the techs to hook those up are top priority. This will more often be Agriculture or/and Animal Husbandry.

Liz is Fin, meaning you want cottages sooner rather than later -> Pottery.

So very roughly it should be:

BW(Can skip for later if few Forest/Food)->Agri->AH(If have Cattle)->Wheel->Pottery->BW/AH(if skiped earlier)->Writing(or another 1 or 2 tech you might feel you need)->Tech for Oracle

There are many things possible that will suggest a different order, so this is more a example than a rule.
But the important point is:
- We get Ressource tech's first.
- Then we get important economic techs.
- Then we can tech Writing or something else and still have enought time to make it in time to the Oracle.
(In fact beeing FIN we (if we start cottaging asap) even have enought time to tech CoL and Math and take CS from Orcale to make the economy skyrocket. This will become hard and low chance of success on high difficultie, but it does work very well on Noble)

Also you can often tech to CoL in time to still get a religion - if you really-really want one.

------

Builds...

Barracks much to early.

Worker first is the best unless you have seafood (england start with fishing) in that case you build WB first.

The worker will hook up the ressources, (possible also chop a second worker), then start cottaging as you are Fin.

 

[csmith963]

Great advice. The reason I always delayed my second city is I want to make sure my economy can support it. I thought I was expanding too slowly but I figured it was better to underexpand than overexpand and destroy my economy. I always thought an early religion was a great advantage with the money that spreading it brings you. I never really did the math on it but many times after spreading religion to a foreign city I saw my gold go up a tick or two so I thought it was good.

After reading your comments I think my problem is that I wasnt hooking up the cottages as fast as I should have, especially being a financial civ. I can tech faster and expand faster if I have money coming in. Once I get the second city set up and financialized I can tech and expand that much faster. It's an compounding effect. Wow, it really does seem so obvious.

 

[Beamup]

The other issue is that it's far too specific. You should really adjust your opening far more to the situation at hand, instead of having a standard cookie-cutter plan.

 

[Rameau's Nephew]

Great advice. The reason I always delayed my second city is I want to make sure my economy can support it. I thought I was expanding too slowly but I figured it was better to underexpand than overexpand and destroy my economy. I always thought an early religion was a great advantage with the money that spreading it brings you. I never really did the math on it but many times after spreading religion to a foreign city I saw my gold go up a tick or two so I thought it was good.

After reading your comments I think my problem is that I wasnt hooking up the cottages as fast as I should have, especially being a financial civ. I can tech faster and expand faster if I have money coming in. Once I get the second city set up and financialized I can tech and expand that much faster. It's an compounding effect. Wow, it really does seem so obvious.

Yeah, the religious income is tempting, because it seems like free money. But once you factor in the costs of rushing to the tech, building the shrine, building the monastery, training the missionaries, (potentially) angering your rivals by being a differing faith than they are, and (potentially) decreasing the chance of religious division and holy wars on the other continent(s), it is much less worthwhile.

The Wonders, as Sjaramei mentioned, are your other big cost. The GL is a favorite around here, and Oracle slingshots are useful gambits on medium-level difficulties, but don't be afraid to skip one or all of them if the situation isn't right. An equivalent amount of hammers invested in, say, a stack of axemen can often do much more good in your efforts to grow your empire than one tech, a few scientists, or a slightly faster GP-production rate.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Well, considering the blunders I make and all the help I get on here, it would be laughable to consider me an expert. Still, I play (somewhat unsuccessfully since getting BTS) on monarch, and can give some personal experience insight.

Optimal build orders vary dramatically by difficulty level. For example, the AI techs and expands much faster at higher difficulties than lower ones, and they complete wonders faster. On Noble you can get alot more...but it's still a bit much to rush for three wonders early on in the game like this, unless you're trying to pull an Obsolete SSE/WE (Lizzy is Philo so it's possible with stone or marble).

I'd say at Noble you can get away with going bronze and animal husbandry, and building your first 2 cities/making axes or chariots for barb defense. You can probably still get these wonders doing so, especially if you have copper for axes (you'll want to chop the wonders out anyway). I prefer archery early, but that will delay wonders somewhat more.

If one of your new cities has a good source of food, it can take over worker/settler production. The other city should pump units, and if you REALLY want those wonders, start chopping them in the capital.

There is no one optimal build order in this game. It will depend heavily on your terrain and proximity of rival AI's. One thing you WILL want to do, though, is get your first 2-4 cities up quickly, and use them to block the AI from expanding into your territory. Also by quickly I mean building them somewhat early and actually making them decent via worker improvements. Try to work mostly or only improved tiles (after the requisite chopping spree early on perhaps).

 

[Sjaramei]

The worker will hook up the ressources, (possible also chop a second worker), then start cottaging as you are Fin.

I will just add something to this. Early game is all about food and hammers. Cottages isn't important before you start getting 3-4 cities (specialize one to be only cottages almost), so cottaging capital very early isn't a good idea. (Exception is floodplains, grassland farms and mined hills is better to improve for the capital, this is your main settler/worker factory so it needs that food/hammer bad)

And if you have gold or gems nearby those are better than cottages obviously and you can do some more production instead. (or you can run lots of scientists in place of the cottages and lightbulb a bit, that works too ) The bottom line is food and hammers are the key for a good start regardless how you run your economy. Maximizing that is the most important thing you do with your workers early game.

Granaries and food income will add more to your research in the long run than getting some early cottages running. (micromanage your cities to grow to happiness cap as soon as possible, then switch from food to cottages so you get stagnant growth)