You are a nationalist.

I'm defining it as the belief that nations, however conceived, deserve some kind of representation and/or autonomy.

Look, your post was very good, but I needed to point out something about this. You misappropriate the idea of pragmatic representative function of statehood (as being articulated by both Hobbes and Locke, amusingly) to an ideology that sprouted a hundred years later than that. Several political ideologies follow the idea that states are to serve the population they represent. Such a conceptualization of the state is more closely tied to modernism than nationalism, and the two are not the same thing.
 
Look, your post was very good, but I needed to point out something about this. You misappropriate the idea of pragmatic representative function of statehood (as being articulated by both Hobbes and Locke, amusingly) to an ideology that sprouted a hundred years later than that. Several political ideologies follow the idea that states are to serve the population they represent.

Anyone who follows those political ideologies is an utter idiot. States should be built on a common identity; take out the nation and you’re left with a house of cards.

(Ask Mr. Assad, he can confirm this.)
 
I
Ya never know when some moose is gonna dart out of an alley right into traffic.

The majority of four wheel drive vehicles in the US have never been shifted into four wheel drive, and the rear seats in most 8-9 passenger SUVs have never met a buttock...other than in passing visits from the owner, who wears his on his head. Most owners of high performance vehicles that are capable of cracking a hundred have never had them past ninety. Cars in the US are about the having, not the using.
I got mine to 100! :)
 
This...
The will of the people and the nation are the same thing.
Plus this...
you mean? It's straight from the Nazis (only the Leader is missing, to embody the will of the people). If I didn't know any better, I'd think this was a joke.
Reminded me of this:

13-divineright.jpg


I I got mine to 100! :)
Me too... too!...although I'd hardly consider my car "High performance"... it does say "Turbo" on some placard on the trunk though:think: does that count?
 
Anyone who follows those political ideologies is an utter idiot. States should be built on a common identity; take out the nation and you’re left with a house of cards.

(Ask Mr. Assad, he can confirm this.)
Uh, first off, whether that is true or not is irrelevant to my post, and second, you aren't actually considering a plethora of historical and contemporary examples that work contary to nationalism. Nationism is a very new model. Refering to Assad is honestly not very smart either. He was actively destabilized.
 
Uh, first off, whether that is true or not is irrelevant to my post,

Why? You mentioned that there were many political frameworks in which states exist to serve their population- this is true, but still it's putting the cart before the horse.

and second, you aren't actually considering a plethora of historical and contemporary examples that work contary to nationalism. Nationism is a very new model.

So? Are you a monarchist, an anarchist?

Refering to Assad is honestly not very smart either. He was actively destabilized.

Try 'destabilizing' Japan and see what happens.
 
We did that. Then we built them up in an image we approved of. That's what imperialists do. What is your point there?

I don't recall Japan launching into a sectarian war. I can imagine a conflict between factions of the military, or a coup against the emperor, but that's hardly the same thing.
 
Interestingly, there was no need for a coup. During the 1930s Japans simply became ruled by the military. Since the emperor in the Meji constitution never had any real power, there really was no need for any coup. But it's quite arguable that the military takeover destabilized Japan to the point of an ultimately fatal military aggression.
 
Why? You mentioned that there were many political frameworks in which states exist to serve their population- this is true, but still it's putting the cart before the horse.



So? Are you a monarchist, an anarchist?



Try 'destabilizing' Japan and see what happens.

Look. There are more models than nationalism that form a cohesive entity that's governable. That a state is cohesive doesn't mean it's a nation. Nationalism appeals to a certain form of cohesion based on ethnic facets and the the states that represent it's success were in most instances succesful before nationalism and for reasons not solely explainable by it. And it doesn't matter what I am.
 
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Look. There are more models than nationalism that form a cohesive entity that's governable. That a state is cohesive doesn't mean it's a nation. Nationalism appeals to a certain form of cohesion based on ethnic facets and the the states that represent it's success were in most instances succesful before nationalism and for reasons not solely explainable by it. And it doesn't matter what I am.

The only reasonable definition of nationalism is a consensus among people that they want to share the same fate. This can be based on ethnic characteristics, but that's hardly a requirement.
 
The only reasonable definition of nationalism is a consensus among people that they want to share the same fate. This can be based on ethnic characteristics, but that's hardly a requirement.

That's a definition of popular sovereignty, not of nationalism.
 
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This... Plus this... Reminded me of this:

13-divineright.jpg


Me too... too!...although I'd hardly consider my car "High performance"... it does say "Turbo" on some placard on the trunk though:think: does that count?
I dunno, all i know is my Fit is definitely high performance
 
I'd like a see an argument for this. Definitions and all that.

Very well - to take the quick option, here's Wikipedia:

Popular sovereignty or the sovereignty of the people's rule, is the principle that the authority of a state and its government is created and sustained by the consent of its people, through their elected representatives (Rule by the People), who are the source of all political power.

Nationalism is a complex, multidimensional concept involving a shared communal identification with one's nation. It is expressed as a political ideology oriented towards achieving and maintaining communal autonomy, and sometimes sovereignty, over a territory of historical significance to the group. Additionally, it is further oriented towards the development and maintenance of a common communal identity based on shared characteristics typically including culture, language, religion, political goals and/or a belief in a common ancestry.

What you've described is much closer to the first - notice that even in this very short definition, it is clear that nationalists believe that the nation is distinct from and prior to the state, and that states built on nationalist principles have correct boundaries. None of those are necessary for popular sovereignty, and neither is part of your definition.

EDIT: As I said before, there's nothing wrong with challenging or proposing changes to the meanings of words. However, you need to come up with a good reason to do that: if you want to redefine 'nationalism' to have the meaning of another perfectly good term, I can't see that you really achieve anything except confusing people by calling them nationalists.
 
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Nationalism is, again, about a particular approach to history and the legitimization of a particular form of state that's perceived as natural based on that history. Nationalism is not the idea that a state should be coherent per se. You cannot have nationalism without a reference to history, demonstrating the nation as a natural continuum in some way. In regards to the definition provided by Flying Pig/Wikipedia, I particularly like the parts "sovereignty/autonomy over a territory of historical significance to the group" and that it is "oriented towards the development and maintenance of a common communal identity", which appeals, again, to a larger historical construct. I have never seen an example of nationalism that hasn't appealed to the past somehow, as a legitimization of a group as a continuum, and I cannot fathom a form of nationalism that expects this group to fundamentally change in the future. Also, factual coherence is also sometimes thrown into the gutter in favor of idealistic coherence. I can look at Greek nationalism that sees Greece as a continuum from ancient and classical Greece, the Eastern Roman Empire, the Greek territory under the Ottomans and the resurgence of Greece in the late modern era. This is an ordinary attitude among Greek nationalists, and the imaginary is maintained even through the vastly different political ideologies and identites and traditions of the Greek-speaking nations of history. (EDIT: See? Now even I did the error of equating nation and state, as a colloquial synonym) Danish history could be seen as more coherent as the ethnic coherence and historical territory has changed very little, however, the ideologies of Denmark hasn't been stable at all, rather, it is a mishmash of vastly different ideological and cultural traditions that were unified as a construct among conservatives in the 19th century.

Now, this construct has often proven very powerful in maintaining coherence in the state. But there are other sources of coherence. You could point to the concurrent developments of pan-Scandinavian identites that I'm part of. This isn't an appeal to a common ancestry as much as it's actually an appeal to a common tradition of humanist, progressive and ecological ideas. The appeal of these movements is completely different than an appeal to primordialism. Also you can point to points in history where stable, coherent states existed in spite of no true ethnic or historical tradition. You can point to points in history where subsets of ethnic groups appealed to their own sovereignty over a pan-sovereignty of the broader nation. Or you can point to points in history where some nation state has been constructed but in fact has definite subsets of ethnicities that cancel out the true historical or ethnic coherence.

Nationalism does not mean stability of a coherent state. Neither is it the sole determinant of stability and coherence in the state. But it often believes itself to be. All you're telling me, Mouthwash, when you claim nationalism is the same as coherence of identity or popular sovereignty, is that you're one of those nationalists that believe true coherence can't be achieved by anything else. Which is okay, but then you're actively ignoring a long-butt time of ideologies that maintained state stability not through nationalism but through other means.
 
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What you've described is much closer to the first - notice that even in this very short definition, it is clear that nationalists believe that the nation is distinct from and prior to the state, and that states built on nationalist principles have correct boundaries. None of those are necessary for popular sovereignty, and neither is part of your definition.

No, you're confused. The first definition defines the state as the subject and its constituents as a force which acts upon it. It doesn't have to be nationalist whatsoever. If the majority of people in the Habsburg empire support their monarch, regardless of their ties to one another, that would constitute popular sovereignty.

Nationalism is, again, about a particular approach to history and the legitimization of a particular form of state that's perceived as natural based on that history. Nationalism is not the idea that a state should be coherent per se. You cannot have nationalism without a reference to history, demonstrating the nation as a natural continuum in some way. In regards to the definition provided by Flying Pig/Wikipedia, I particularly like the parts "sovereignty/autonomy over a territory of historical significance to the group" and that it is "oriented towards the development and maintenance of a common communal identity", which appeals, again, to a larger historical construct. I have never seen an example of nationalism that hasn't appealed to the past somehow, as a legitimization of a group as a continuum, and I cannot fathom a form of nationalism that expects this group to fundamentally change in the future. Also, factual coherence is also sometimes thrown into the gutter in favor of idealistic coherence. I can look at Greek nationalism that sees Greece as a continuum from ancient and classical Greece, the Eastern Roman Empire, the Greek territory under the Ottomans and the resurgence of Greece in the late modern era. This is an ordinary attitude among Greek nationalists, and the imaginary is maintained even through the vastly different political ideologies and identites and traditions of the Greek-speaking nations of history. (EDIT: See? Now even I did the error of equating nation and state, as a colloquial synonym) Danish history could be seen as more coherent as the ethnic coherence and historical territory has changed very little, however, the ideologies of Denmark hasn't been stable at all, rather, it is a mishmash of vastly different ideological and cultural traditions that were unified as a construct among conservatives in the 19th century.

Now, this construct has often proven very powerful in maintaining coherence in the state. But there are other sources of coherence. You could point to the concurrent developments of pan-Scandinavian identites that I'm part of. This isn't an appeal to a common ancestry as much as it's actually an appeal to a common tradition of humanist, progressive and ecological ideas. The appeal of these movements is completely different than an appeal to primordialism. Also you can point to points in history where stable, coherent states existed in spite of no true ethnic or historical tradition. You can point to points in history where subsets of ethnic groups appealed to their own sovereignty over a pan-sovereignty of the broader nation. Or you can point to points in history where some nation state has been constructed but in fact has definite subsets of ethnicities that cancel out the true historical or ethnic coherence.

I honestly don't see how this engages at all with my arguments. I don't care whether it is based on ethnicity, religion, civic institutions. If a group of people identify as a nation then they are a nation. That's the only definition any reasonable person should accept.

Nationalism does not mean stability of a coherent state. Neither is it the sole determinant of stability and coherence in the state. But it often believes itself to be. All you're telling me, Mouthwash, when you claim nationalism is the same as coherence of identity or popular sovereignty, is that you're one of those nationalists that believe true coherence can't be achieved by anything else. Which is okay, but then you're actively ignoring a long-butt time of ideologies that maintained state stability not through nationalism but through other means.

Name them, then. I'm tired of arguing with people who can't even state their position.
 
No, you're confused. The first definition defines the state as the subject and its constituents as a force which acts upon it. It doesn't have to be nationalist whatsoever. If the majority of people in the Habsburg empire support their monarch, regardless of their ties to one another, that would constitute popular sovereignty.

Precisely. What you said was:

The only reasonable definition of nationalism is a consensus among people that they want to share the same fate.

I'm saying that a consensus among the people of the Habsburg Empire that they wanted to share the same fate would not necessarily have had anything to do with nationalism.
 
I'm saying that a consensus among the people of the Habsburg Empire that they wanted to share the same fate would not necessarily have had anything to do with nationalism.

OK, you're really starting to get desperate. Did Ptolemaic Egypt and Gaul just decide to unite 'because they identified with one another?'
 
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