Zero day DLC = disrespecting the customer

So I was curious about dlc and read the wiki, and 2k wasnt mention so i went and googled it.

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/artic...k_2_dlc_already_present_on_game_disc_fans_say

This is an article about Bioshock 2, and how a dlc was already on the discs, pc and xbox, that everyone bought(assuming dl 2). When people bought the dlc the dl was only 24kbs. 2k Elizabeth is quoted as saying yes its true, but so that the community wasnt split into 2 camps, and could play MP together.

So after reading that I can only conclude that regardless if you buy civ v deluxe, regular, or dvd, babylon and map packs will already be on there, so everyone can play together. If they release babylon later as dlc, I think they will, then the dl may be around 24kbs.

I for one dont like hearing this sort of thing. Is it good business? Maybe.
 
What happened in L4D2:

Preorders got baseball bats as in game items.
Any player in a game with someone who had a pre-order also was able to use baseball bats.
When the DLC The Passing came out for L4D2, everyone could use baseball bats without pre-orders.

At worst, Civ5 will still allow you to play together (of course). At best, you'll be able to play as the Babylons in a game with someone who has the deluxe version.

What about the map pack? Are they MP? I am surprised that nobody is posting about whether this map pack will be playable with others who did not preorder.

Its certainly possible to develop a game with in game bonus items and material without splitting the player base. From this standpoint its good business (make extra money, player base stays together).
 
Im fine with it now, but in two weeks or whatever if they announce a dlc bundle, and its already on disc Id be pissed. If they work on stuff and finish it before they even release the game, then it should be in the base game. With deluxe, ya you need to spice it up some way. If they pull a bioshock, thats just lame. I never have planned on buying dlc myself, atleast not right away, seems to be prices drop a lot. I want a hard copy also, but a part of me wants the deluxe.... Thays why I will get hard copy, then buy babylon for half price or less later.

Edit: I dont know how mp works, so if you can use maps ect I dont know. Seems stupid if you cant though right? They are going to have a seperate map editor this time around, so i suspect youd be able to make your own mp map, and if worst case you cant use map pack, do a small edit to it the save it as your own maybe?
 
The player base can still split with modding. Sure, the proponents of add-a-civ type mods don't see the problem, the the proponents of total conversion mods don't see the problem, but that doesn't mean the problem isn't there.

Locking content on the disc is just fraudulent. People paid for the full game. Not just the full "core" game, the full game. Period. Therefore, they should get the full game.

@Tylerryan79: You're assuming that people will be able to get it later. We have no info indicating that it's even a possibility. For all we know, the deluxe edition could only be available for a few weeks; after that, no more Babylon, no matter how much you pay (that's how it worked with civ4 and everything else I've ever seen have a deluxe edition at release).
 
Future new cfc member 1:
postcount:1

"So I bought civ5 from the store a few weeks ago and after a few games in single player I fired up multiplayer to see what it was like. I noticed some players were able to choose Babylon. :confused: but that's not in my game?"

cfc member 2:
"Yeah that was a bonus for those who pre-ordered the deluxe edition."

Future new cfc member 1:
"Is there any way I can get Babylon? It looks fun. :)"

cfc member 2:
"Unfortunately, no. Unless Firaxis decide to release the civ later on in an expansion pack or as separate DLC."

cfc member 3:
"Oh, that would be lame. If that happens I shouldn't have bought the DE in the first place."

cfc modder:
"Check out <blah>'s Babylon mod. It's not as flashy graphics-wise and he (or she) had to use a different leader for copyright reasons but the traits of the new civ are the same. You can't use it in MP though."

PieceOfMind:
<token politically correct diplomatic comment>
:p
 
As much amusement as I get from those who think they're entitled to the contents of the DE for free, anyone who'd be hit by buyer's remorse by the concept of Babylon being granted to everyone in the expansion would prove an adequate replacement in the long run.
 
Ten years ago, Babylon would have been included in the game. Maybe a Deluxe edition with a nice box and behind-the-scene stuff would have been available, but Babylon would have been in the game.

No one would have come here and cried about how they should have charged us more money for Babylon.

Don't encourage the slippery slope. You have no reason to do so. I am flabbergasted by people coming here to express how joyous they are that they can pay 10$ for a civ. Not even that long ago you could pay 20-30$ for an expansion with 15 times that amount of content.

So I guess we were all spoiled brats a few years back? Now some of us seem to have something more than short-term memory and remember how we used to be treated as customers, and somehow we're people with a strong sense of entitlement.

What are you defending? Seriously? Where is your interest here?
 
There are those of us that consider everything but mods to be the core game.

I've never been a big fan of modular loading, in part because add-a-[insert thing here] type mods are not my taste. I greatly prefer more extensive, monolithic mods.
Extensive, monolithic mods are far easier to write modularly.

For the same reason why you write internal APIs.
SimonL said:
Ten years ago, Babylon would have been included in the game. Maybe a Deluxe edition with a nice box and behind-the-scene stuff would have been available, but Babylon would have been in the game.

No one would have come here and cried about how they should have charged us more money for Babylon.
10 years ago, they wouldn't have been able to write Civ5, even if they magically had todays hardware.

You seem to think that what software is developed has no relationship to how much money the owners of the software can expect to earn from it. If they manage to figure out a way to get people with a high tolerance for "deluxe" edition extra charge to pay more money, then that increases the expected profit from putting out a game.

This encourages more game development. People who invest in game development make more money, so more people invest in it. We get more games, and (often) more lavish games.

You do not have to buy the add on. If you find you have no choice but to always buy every add on for every product, you will not be able to be a functioning member of a modern western consumer society. There are add ons for next to everything, from cars to houses to pools to bikes to television sets to airplane tickets to fast food meals to fine dining meals.

These add ons are going to, quite often, not be worth the cost to you. To someone with a different ratio of valuing cash to add on, it will be worth it. So the producers of the base and add on item end up making more money.

Here is where you get the benefit.

Before hand, the thing they where selling went for 100$. Each cost 60$ to manufacture and sell (plus a bunch of marketing). 60$ is the marginal cost per item, not the total costs per item.

Every 1$ they reduced the price increased sales by about 2.5% percent (and didn't change the per-unit cost to make and sell). So their per-item profit drops from 40$ to 39$, and they sell 2.4% more -- resulting in a ~0.07% reduction in total profits. Answer: do not lower price.

Afterwards, 20% of purchasers buy a 20$ add on, with a marginal 15$ in profit.

Now it sells for an effective 104$, with a marginal profit of 43$. Lowering the price by 1$ generates 0.12% higher total profits!

Now, imagine they where selling 1 million units before. That means up to 40 million dollars in development and marketing costs before they are unprofitable. If the add on requires 1 million dollars in development and 1 million dollars in extra marketing, that means they have 1 million dollars in extra profit from doing the add on.

Imagine if spending a million dollars on more development would result in 2.4% more sales (or 24 thousand more sales). At 40$ profit a pop, that comes to 960 thousand dollars -- not worth spending the money on development. At 43$ expected profit a pop, that comes to 1.032 million dollars -- it is now worth spending an extra million on developing the core product because of the add on.

For an even larger impact than "an extra million dollars of core development" and "1$ lower price" -- what if the entire project was initially projected to be 0.5 million dollars in the hole (after accounting for risk and time value of money). At that point, you say "don't do it". But with the add on added to the projection, it is now 0.5 million dollars in the black! The project went from "don't do it" to "go ahead" because of the add on.

In effect, sales of the original product act as marketing for the add on. So having a cheaper, better, more widely purchased original product is good for the profitability of the add on -- which means investing more money in the core product, and making it cheaper, can be beneficial for the company in question.

(Note that the lowering of price isn't likely, because marketeers like using fixed price points. Extra money spent on development is more likely than a price point change.)

Or, in short: profits from the Babylon add-on can be used to both fund the Babylon add-on development, and core development on Civ5.

And yes, while money from a game is not used to fund development of that game, the expected money that the game will earn is used to fund development of the game. So the fact that there is an add on that can generate more profit does mean the game can get more funding.
 

I just don't agree with how you consider the add-on itself. If only it were just like a MP3 player as an option in my car. That actually seems to give me a bonus or something. I don't buy it either. For me, missing Babylon is more as if my car came with no door on the glove compartment. I don't really care but it's annoying as hell. I mean, just put a damn door on there, if you really insist on charging me 100$ for that door though um, okay whatever. The car still runs without that... but... why? It's an unimportant missing part that should be there.

I personally think that the quality of games has been pretty much stagnant despite all this really optimistic stuff you seem to think is happening in the gaming industry. Besides I do think Civ 5 could have happened 10 years ago exactly like it's going to come out now. Just not the graphics and all.

So yeah, all this money being poured by people with DLC and stuff, and what we get are congolmerates, companies fusing, making brown linear games with unskippable cut-scenes, expensive voice acting and DRM. Yay me.
 
You all realize that this is not how special edition purchases and DLC decision are made though right? Bottom line says it still makes business sense because there is a win situation which is greater than the lose situation.
 
SimonL said:
For me, missing Babylon is more as if my car came with no door on the glove compartment. I don't really care but it's annoying as hell.
There was an announcement that it came with 18 civs. You'd buy the game with 18 civs, if Babylon was never coded. Your problem is that someone else gets it, and you don't.

It isn't "missing a door on the glove compartment", it is "a slightly larger engine" or "an extra gear".
I personally think that the quality of games has been pretty much stagnant despite all this really optimistic stuff you seem to think is happening in the gaming industry.
I don't know about you, but the complexity of Civ4 compared to Civ3 is large. The polish of Civ4 compared to Civ3 is large. The mod ability fo Civ4 next to Civ3 is huge.

And the amount of time spent on graphics in Civ4 is huge compared to Civ3.

Now, you might prefer Civ3 to Civ4 -- but the amount of effort thrown at Civ4 is huge compared to Civ3.
How? I can't imagine FFH being modular. Or even the scenarios shipped with Warlords and BtS, for that matter.
You implement each unit as a module.
You implement each civilization as a module.
You implement each building as a module.

Civilizations with unique units/buildings package the units as sub-modules.

This lets someone pick up and modify a given civilization, because the resources it uses are mostly limited to the civilization module itself. You can do the same with a unit -- someone can build a new unit with graphics etc and it could be dropped in, or removed if it was causing problems.
Avs said:
I personally think that the quality of games has been pretty much stagnant despite all this really optimistic stuff you seem to think is happening in the gaming industry.
Yep, getting information like the marginal return on doing X is hard. Instead, people wander around blindly, and get "we made money" or "we didn't make money" feedback. They then use this experience to decide if they will invest in another game.

Voice overs, high end graphics, marketing, DLC -- these are all things that seem to make more money.
 
There was an announcement that it came with 18 civs. You'd buy the game with 18 civs, if Babylon was never coded. Your problem is that someone else gets it, and you don't.

It isn't "missing a door on the glove compartment", it is "a slightly larger engine" or "an extra gear".

Well I just don't see it that way. And for what it's worth, I still haven't decided if I'll go for the Deluxe edition. Civ is like the only game where I'd even consider it. I never buy DLC and Deluxe usually. Not because I can't , because I find this ******ed.

And if you seriously think that today's gaming requires this business model to produce whatever it's putting out, well I'm sorry. I sure wish that my clients expected so little of me as you do these people.
 
I have to agree with the posters that think this move is akin to a slap in the face. IF they had waited even 6 weeks after the initial release it would not smell like "let's try and milk some more money out of this."
 
There was an announcement that it came with 18 civs. You'd buy the game with 18 civs, if Babylon was never coded. Your problem is that someone else gets it, and you don't.

It isn't "missing a door on the glove compartment", it is "a slightly larger engine" or "an extra gear".

If the Deluxe Edition really is something along the lines of locked code built into every copy of the game to enable seamless compatibillity as the Original Post and Tylerryan79 have suggested, and not the potential PBEM/LAN/GOTM, etc. multiplayer nightmare that I've envisoned....

Wouldn't a better automobile metaphor be something like a built-in bluetooth mirror or other invisible communications sytem that you couldn't use and wouldn't notice unless somebody with the deluxe car called you?
 
The marginal cost of shipping binary code is nearly zero. Shipping another copy of the game (with something included) doesn't cost them anything.

I give up.
 
The player base can still split with modding. Sure, the proponents of add-a-civ type mods don't see the problem, the the proponents of total conversion mods don't see the problem, but that doesn't mean the problem isn't there.
I believe that we will have all sorts of problems with modding Civ5, modular or not.

I outlined a possibly ugly scenario in post 31 of this thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=366430&page=2

I hope that I'm wrong.
 
No offense Lemon, but your "5 possibilities" appear to be based on rampant, unfounded speculation. At least one (if not several) of them are in direct opposition to specific statements made by 2k representatives to the contrary.
 
The post that follows lemons in his link does a very good job of convincing me his 5 possibilities wont happen.
 
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