Zero day DLC = disrespecting the customer

Im average Joe, nice to meet you. I guess unprecedented modding isnt easy modding. Maybe they meant unprecedented modding, its never been this hard before! Obviously im kidding, i just hope its good for all the modders out there, you guys do the work, and us average joes get to enjoy said work. Thanks!
 
There will probably be bits of the code easy to mod (much like CIV), which make mammoth mods like FFH possible, however given how the leaderheads this time work (animated and talking) making new leaders isn't going to be one of those easily modified areas. Mostly because they're so much more complex.

£5 on there being a mode of leaderheads which are easily modded (hardcore walking, talking leaderheads won't work on mid range laptops, like they're aiming for so chances are there'll be a slimline version where they're closer to CIV leaderheads than what we've seen thus far.
 
Ya, youd be able to turn off animations ect, so then it would be easier to mod? Then this way people will make different civs/leaders you can get for free, or pay x dollars for the talking walking ones? Im sure some people will be able to do it though, maybe minus native language.
 
something like that, yes. Like the low gfx setting on Civ 4, where the map looked less pretty and the tiles don't move. Having all of the computer knowledge of an uneducated fool, I'd assume that there were separate tilesets for high ald low gfx, and that the latter set would have been slightly easier to modify (owing to the fewer colours and non animated tiles). THe same principle would apply to the 'low power' leaderheads.
 
None of this is an issue. Within five days of release, Civ 5 will be released on every torrent site known to man, and will be cracked, bypassing activation.

It happens with every game, no matter what genre. It's the simple truth.

I'm not worried about DLC, as I haven't paid for any game's DLC since the concept was first invented. I'm not worried about activation, I'm not worried about DRM, or anything else.

I will be playing Civ 5, with all of the trimmings, and that's all there is to it. The same goes for any true fan (With an internet connection). I don't see the problem.

5 days? Im thinking same day! Some games are there weeks before release! Any true fan would buy it. Im not antipirate, but a game like civ deserves to be bought. This isnt some junky game that you wouldnt buy regardless, if your a fan then pay up. Though the thought of not having to deal with steam(depending on who cracks it) does sound apealing, Id like to have it patched asap, just incase theres any bugs ect.
 
5 days? Im thinking same day! Some games are there weeks before release! Any true fan would buy it. Im not antipirate, but a game like civ deserves to be bought. This isnt some junky game that you wouldnt buy regardless, if your a fan then pay up. Though the thought of not having to deal with steam(depending on who cracks it) does sound apealing, Id like to have it patched asap, just incase theres any bugs ect.

I agree. Civ 5 (I hope) will be worth buying, and will deserve to be bought. However, no DLC, no matter how interesting it is, is worth paying for. While I feel that DLC is a scam, at the same time I don't get upset or feel the need to protest. DLC can be pirated. It's not a big deal.

The same goes for an expansion, actually. So many people complain about corporations "hogging" money, and so forth. If these people have such a huge problem with the quality of an expansion or DLC, why even bother considering paying for it? These people could just pirate the expansion or DLC, get the extra content that "isn't worth the money", and the game goes on.

I mean, I enjoy some flag waving and banner raising as much as the next person, but no amount of protest will stop companies from releasing DLC, or using DRM, or anything else for that matter. The simple fact is that more people will pay for a game than won't pay for it, and that's all that matters.

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Huh?

No really. Huh?

What game are you talking about? I'm seriously confused what in the world you are going on about. And I'm a computer programmer who has hacked at the Civ4 DLL and made changes to how it works.

Well I'm not a computer programmer, though I have learned quite a bit from moddifying the civ4 dll, spent hundreds of hours doing it at this point. What I am refering to specifically are all the new arrays in CvInfos that are run at runtime the whole
Code:
mp_iArrayName = new int [MAX_PLAYERS]
stuff. Anytime a new class object, like a player, building, whatever is added to the game, it's going to throw these array sizes out of whack, breaking save game and MP compatibility. There are dozens of arrays like these, and I can't see how you're going to bypass this type of code. Well actually I can think of ways to do it, but it leads to other problems and basically means the civ5 devs will spend 10 hours writing stuff that could be done in 1.
 
The same goes for an expansion, actually. So many people complain about corporations "hogging" money, and so forth. If these people have such a huge problem with the quality of an expansion or DLC, why even bother considering paying for it? These people could just pirate the expansion or DLC, get the extra content that "isn't worth the money", and the game goes on.
The problem is much deeper than that.
Sure, you can easily DL whatever you wish, and companies trying to screw you with idiotic DRM or DLC will only lose your money as a result.

The thing is that, in the end, we are interested in good games, not crappy ones. I could DL all the dung-made games in the world, but I don't care, I prefer to pay (and reward the good creators) for good games.
And the problem is, the efforts and ressources put into DLC and the like isn't put into making a game better. The very design of a game can be affected by money-grabbing policies - this can go from using an inferior design because it can accomodate DLC better, to simply allocating most of the ressources on the graphics and eye-candy and not bothering with the depth of the game, or dumbing down the game to please the typical mass-market mouthbreathing drooling idiot.

And being able to DL whatever you can, won't change the QUALITY of what you can get.
Even not taking into account some kind of morality (I know, piracy is EVIL and, even worse, COMMUNIST, and so anyone even able to think about it can't speak about morality, but still I consider a duty to pay the creator if the product is deserving, regardless of the fact I can get it for free or not), it's simply better for our self-interest in the long term to buy good quality products, and not buy low-quality products, or products that slips on the slippery slope.

The protests are made so that the producers are aware of the problems, but the wallet is what will make the decisions taken or not.
 
Zero day DLC is basically "collector's edition" marketing for downloadable products. I can accept it in that context as a reasonable bit of marketing.

I'll be boycotting Civ5 likely anyways, strictly because I detest registering store-bought products online, and that is what I see the Steam integration doing.
 
Well I'm not a computer programmer, though I have learned quite a bit from moddifying the civ4 dll, spent hundreds of hours doing it at this point. What I am refering to specifically are all the new arrays in CvInfos that are run at runtime the whole
Code:
mp_iArrayName = new int [MAX_PLAYERS]
stuff. Anytime a new class object, like a player, building, whatever is added to the game, it's going to throw these array sizes out of whack, breaking save game and MP compatibility. There are dozens of arrays like these, and I can't see how you're going to bypass this type of code. Well actually I can think of ways to do it, but it leads to other problems and basically means the civ5 devs will spend 10 hours writing stuff that could be done in 1.

That doesn't make sense because BTS had the same 18 civ limit
 
The problem is much deeper than that.
Sure, you can easily DL whatever you wish, and companies trying to screw you with idiotic DRM or DLC will only lose your money as a result.

The thing is that, in the end, we are interested in good games, not crappy ones. I could DL all the dung-made games in the world, but I don't care, I prefer to pay (and reward the good creators) for good games.
And the problem is, the efforts and ressources put into DLC and the like isn't put into making a game better. The very design of a game can be affected by money-grabbing policies - this can go from using an inferior design because it can accomodate DLC better, to simply allocating most of the ressources on the graphics and eye-candy and not bothering with the depth of the game, or dumbing down the game to please the typical mass-market mouthbreathing drooling idiot.

And being able to DL whatever you can, won't change the QUALITY of what you can get.
Even not taking into account some kind of morality (I know, piracy is EVIL and, even worse, COMMUNIST, and so anyone even able to think about it can't speak about morality, but still I consider a duty to pay the creator if the product is deserving, regardless of the fact I can get it for free or not), it's simply better for our self-interest in the long term to buy good quality products, and not buy low-quality products, or products that slips on the slippery slope.

The protests are made so that the producers are aware of the problems, but the wallet is what will make the decisions taken or not.

Well of course the ability to download a game doesn't affect the quality. I was just pointing out that zero day DLC shouldn't upset customers too much, as there are other options.

I personally don't believe in DLC. That's what (quality) expansions are for. However, if it offends someone that much, they have the option to download (or not download) that quality or crap DLC or expansion, at no cost.

I support buying quality games. I support being extremely irritated at buying less than quality games. Supporting a game developer is a positive thing as not only does it give a person a certain moral high for a few days at paying legitimately for something of quality, but it helps to ensure that the developer will continue releasing those kinds of quality games that think outside of the box, and prevents certain companies from eating these smaller developers and forcing them to release cookie cutter trash that the mass market tosses 50 dollars on.

At the end of the day, however there are some quality games that will no doubt be released with offensive DRM, DLC policies, un-good expansions, etc. In that case, while it is a good thing to protest by not buying the DLC, expansion, and so forth, you might as well get the DLC or expansion as well. I mean, Alexander for Rome Total war wasn't exactly a wonderful expansion. I would not and did not pay for it. However, some major mods required the expansion to play. That doesn't make it worth paying for, it doesn't change the quality of the expansion itself, but it does make it worth a 2 hour download.

<snip>

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Well of course the ability to download a game doesn't affect the quality. I was just pointing out that zero day DLC shouldn't upset customers too much, as there are other options.
Well, I was pointing out that the reason why it upset people is because it implies a worse game, not because there are no... workaround about this :)
And since I've received an infraction for "advocating piracy", let me say this..

I do not advocate piracy. Piracy is evil. You are evil if you do it. Shame on you. Never pirate a game, no matter what the reason or justification. Tsk tsk.
Yeah, I've always found it fun (in a "dark humor" kind of way) how people on Internet can easily talk about war, death, crime and the like, have debate about it and express their opinions... but as soon as it comes to piracy, it's like the Moral Event Horizon.

Rather disturbing, in fact. I can understand it on fansite which want to preserve their good relations with the publisher/developer, but I still find it worrisome how this near-brainwashing pervades through Internet as a whole.
 
Moderator Action: The rules are quite clear - both on piracy/advocating piracy and on public discussion of moderator action. Neither of the two are allowed. If you have a problem with that in general, post about this in the Site Feedback subforum and convince the administrators to change the rules. In this thread any further such discussion is strongly discouraged.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
Rebates exist so car manufacturers can make some extra cash off those individuals who can't be bothered to send in the necessary form to get their cash back. Giveaways are typically done to attract buyers to a product with a benefit beyond the basic value of the product. The analogy of a giveaway is a good one for Valve though, because that's exactly what they've been doing with their current flagship shooter, TF2.

Valve makes tons of free content for Team Fortress 2 so they can continue to attract new customers to a game that's been out since 2007 (I would know, I've been playing it since then), but they provide that content free of charge to anyone who buys the game. I fail to see how my receiving new content that both provides me with new equipment to play with and attracts new opponents for me to shoot is a bad thing in any way. Accusing Valve of being responsible for Firaxis charging for DLC, as the guy I quoted in my previous post did, is ridiculous because Valve doesn't even charge for its own DLC.

I've been buying brand new--first *** to fart on the seat--cars for years and years now. The rebate is applied in the F&I office at time of purchase. There is no such thing as a mail-in rebate in the automobile industry. Perhaps you meant the electronics industry.
 
It's certainly true that it could be coded to work properly for modular loading and DLC. But keep in mind there is the wider concept of forbidding fan made content that competes with the marketed DLC. This is one of the main concerns I have, it's also unprecedented; usually developers look at modding as an asset, as it increases name recognition and content and demand of the product. By putting themselves in direct competition with fans they are harming the long term viability of Civ5.

I would like to take the time to thank you for all the work that you have done to make my gaming experience better.

You do not stand alone.

Thank you for being the voice of the majority of us who have actually used the fan mods and purchased new versions in anticipation of what magic the Modding community has up their collective sleeves. 3.19 was a a good game but very very incomplete. The Mods made this the best game ever, not the developers. The developers made a good game worthy of purchase. The Modders made a good game great worthy of buying the next version just to see what the Modding community could do to fix--and improve--what the developers toss out there.

Again...thank you.

I am very seriously considering not purchasing this game until this is cleared up. Steam really pisses me off (I hate the fact that some donk company is tracking my usage and gathering marketing information about me without paying for that information. :mad: ) but I could live with it if there was reassurance that the Modding Community will not be fractured, interferrred with, or in any way shape or form limitied including making community Mods less accessible than developer content.

So to you...

:goodjob:
 
Zero day DLC is basically "collector's edition" marketing for downloadable products. I can accept it in that context as a reasonable bit of marketing.

I'll be boycotting Civ5 likely anyways, strictly because I detest registering store-bought products online, and that is what I see the Steam integration doing.

Me too. Steam bothers me the most the more I thin kabout it. I don't want some rebel program running around behing my windows. :scan:
 
Well I'm not a computer programmer, though I have learned quite a bit from moddifying the civ4 dll, spent hundreds of hours doing it at this point. What I am refering to specifically are all the new arrays in CvInfos that are run at runtime the whole
Code:
mp_iArrayName = new int [MAX_PLAYERS]
stuff. Anytime a new class object, like a player, building, whatever is added to the game, it's going to throw these array sizes out of whack, breaking save game and MP compatibility. There are dozens of arrays like these, and I can't see how you're going to bypass this type of code. Well actually I can think of ways to do it, but it leads to other problems and basically means the civ5 devs will spend 10 hours writing stuff that could be done in 1.
The fact that the Civ4 DLL uses fixed size arrays for things like "number of players in game" is just a bit of poor legacy code. Fixing it isn't that hard, but it requires changing a bunch of things in how the save game file format works.

And no, it doesn't make things take 10 times as long. A simple std::vector<foo> solves the entire storage problem, with serialization/deserialization consisting of first having the size of the vector then dumping/reading the contents. At a very modest cost, this grants you up to MAX_INT players without problems.

Then toss on a simple data access guard (so that out of bounds access either returns a "zero" value, and/or generates errors), and/or have the programmers use iterators rather than indexes, and you are in gravy.

The reason why the Civ4 DLL is coded that way seems to be because it was ported from C code and C coding styles into C++. Hell, early Civ4 DLL code contains legacy C styles like "put all variable declarations at the start of the function"!

I am a programmer, and I know (not suspect, know) that solving that kind of problem isn't all that hard. It can be hard retrofitting that kind of solution on top of an existing poor solution, but that is about the only part that is difficult.
 
I think that, here on Page 17, people stopped caring about the thoughts, opinions, and speculations of others...but here's what I'm thinking:

I wager that Civ5's first expansion will provide us with the extra civ and maps the deluxe edition grants, just as BTS gave us all the enhancements introduced in Warlords that were still relevant to the 'main game.' Didn't get Babylon and the Cradle whatsits? No problem. In fact, in the interests of balance, Babylon as a whole will probably be playtested and balanced conservatively, at the moderately comfortable risk of being a 'weak civ'.

Or, if you want a Valve/Steam-flavored example, look at Left 4 Dead 2, which had pre-order bonuses (such as, and possibly limited to, the extra weapon in-game) but, if you didn't have them, gave them to you along with the first bonus campaign, The Passing. A "head start" for early adopters in a sense.
 
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