Zero day DLC = disrespecting the customer

[edpovi]

I'm not sure how some folks think that DLC = Disrespect. DLC is simply extra content you can add to your game, much like an expansion pack. It's basiclly a mini-expansion pack.

The base game comes with 18 civs, I don't see how providing a 19th civ as bonus content automaticly makes the base game "cripple ware" or unplayable. As I recall, there were 18 civs in CIV IV as well. This will certainly exapand as it has in the last version.

There is nothing new about bonus content for collector's editions of games. And in no way is anyone "forced" to buy this bonus. Unless they suffer complusive behavior and automatically must buy all things CIV on the day it's availible.
[umm, why is everyone looking at me? ]

 

[ZimbuTheMonkey]

"automaticly makes the base game "cripple ware" or unplayabl"

No one in this entire 21 page thread has even come close to saying this.

In the past, Deluxe or Collector's editions included things like a leather map, or spiral-bound guide, or a fancy box. Now we are getting digital extras and a new civ for 10 dollars. Would you pay for an expansion pack that added behind the scenes footage and 6 civs for 60 dollars?

If I don't buy it, I will feel left out because I don't have Babylon. If I do buy it, I will most certainly feel that the cost was too high for this content. It's a lose-lose, for people like me anyway.

 

[ladedadedum]

I'm not sure how some folks think that DLC = Disrespect. DLC is simply extra content you can add to your game, much like an expansion pack. It's basiclly a mini-expansion pack.

i understand that sometimes they add content that can't make it to the final release in time. that isn't the case here.

The base game comes with 18 civs, I don't see how providing a 19th civ as bonus content automaticly makes the base game "cripple ware" or unplayable. As I recall, there were 18 civs in CIV IV as well. This will certainly exapand as it has in the last version.

babylon is treated as an extra bonus civ, it is obviously content they had already prepared. even though it's only 1 civ, it's still completed content; ergo none deluxe editions are not truly complete versions of the game.

There is nothing new about bonus content for collector's editions of games. And in no way is anyone "forced" to buy this bonus. Unless they suffer complusive behavior and automatically must buy all things CIV on the day it's availible.
[umm, why is everyone looking at me? ]

because something has happened before, does not really justify its continued practice. i think most of us do like dlc, but not at the expense of content that should have already been included.

 

[PieceOfMind]

edpovi, I think much of the suggestion of DLC = disrespect comes form the inherent rivalry between DLC and modding freedom. How that rivalry will play out will depend greatly on how moddable civ5 is, including how easy it is to create new civs/leaders.

For example, if at the game release we learn we are unable to create new civs, people will have been justified in their claims that DLC equaled disrespect. However if civs can be created and it's not too hard to mod a civ very similar to the official Babylon civ, then it could be said that respect was shown to the modding community.

My point is this is mainly an issue to modders, and similarly to people who play mods regularly.

 

[Rub'Rum]

My point is this is mainly an issue to modders, and similarly to people who play mods regularly.

I don't think that saying this is the "main" issue is true. It certainly isn't for me, as I rarely use mods that had gameplay content (with civ, I limited myself to cosmetic changes). It certainly IS an issue, but the main one, I'm not sure. If you are involved in that community, I can see how that would seem the case.

For me, it's really about selling something for 10$ that's worth about 2$ max. How we should be able to get the right bang for our buck with fully fledged expansion packs at 30$ with a load of new civs and gameplay changes.

Also, as many people including myself have said, a deluxe edition adds extra fluff, and should stay away from game content.

 

[mechaerik]

I'm not sure how some folks think that DLC = Disrespect. DLC is simply extra content you can add to your game, much like an expansion pack. It's basiclly a mini-expansion pack.

As SimonL has said, if you're willing to pay $10 for a civ, then you must also have been willing to pay several hundred dollars for a proper expansion pack like Beyond the Sword or Warlords.

 

[PieceOfMind]

SimonL,
I don't believe any disrespect realates to the decision of a consumer not to purchase the DLC because he/she doesn't believe it to be of good value.

Since it was phungus420 who started this thread, I was assuming that to him modding was the big issue (though his OP doesn't agree with me on this point). He recently announced he was leaving civ4 modding. Half of me believes it's because he's been put under a NDA on something civ-related. It certainly wouldn't be the first time a talented modder got snapped up and hence practically disappeared from the forum. The other half of me worries he's left based on a lack of connection with the community, since most people in this thread tend to strongly disagree with him.

Whatever the case, it's a sudden and unexpected move.

 

[Tylerryan79]

With the base game costing $49.99, with 18 Civs, it comes out to a cost of $2.77 a civilization.
At $59.99 the deluxe addition is $10 more, and includes "Making of" video, soundtrack, and Babylon civilization. So if we deducte $2.77 for Babylon, out of the $10, we come to $7.23 for the video and soundtrack. Honestly, I see no value in the soundtrack or video, but someone else may. I know a movie soundtrack, or something similiar, by itself would be sold for at least $10, probably more.

If this math has been done, sorry for restating what has been said. I personally am not a fan of the deluxe with the extra civ, however I do not think $10 extra is paying to much for the deluxe. You get more than just a civ, and as the math shows, your really not paying all that much for it.

 

[edpovi]

... How that rivalry will play out will depend greatly on how moddable civ5 is, including how easy it is to create new civs/leaders.
...
My point is this is mainly an issue to modders, and similarly to people who play mods regularly.

I see your point on the mods and understand the concern. In my opinion, it's very likely you will be able to mod civs and leaders to some extent. They have talked up the mod features too much to exclude civs. But until we have more details, we simply don't know.

By the same token, just because they offer "extensive mod tools" does not mean they are prohibited from offering their own expansions and DLC for profit. For example, If you can mod new civs, then I think you will see several mods for Spain, Mongolia, Vikings, ect. Firaxis well be well within their rights to sell an expansion pack later that includes official versions of these civs.

I also understand the concern on how DLC and Mod content control is implemented. I also see this as a bit of a technical challenge, particularly when patches are added to the mix. A solution would be the ability to chose older (unpatched) versions when you run the game. But that solution will also cause the game to use a lot more hard drive space, the extreme would be separate installs for each major version.

However, in my reading of several posts, the concerns were not just about mods, but that having and extra civ as a bonus means they have somehow been robbed. I don't see it that way. They planned on 18 civs for the base game, which is the same as the last version at release. They also have an additional civ they created to use as bonus material.

Just because they have finished this civ before the release date doesn't mean they are now obligated to provide this as the 19th civ in the base game. It was selected to be a perk for the "deluxe" edition.

 

[Ahriman]

Worrying about modding compatibility is definitely reasonable.

But these kinds of ideas:

If I don't buy it, I will feel left out because I don't have Babylon

ergo none deluxe editions are not truly complete versions of the game.

just seem bizarre.

We're going to get a (hopefully) great game for $50. Why are you less happy because someone else has some extra feature? How does it make you any worse off? Does the existence of user-created mods that you don't have installed also make you angry?
Or is it just a sense of entitlement for anything made by the developer?

Are you angry at your neighbor because they buy a more expensive car than you do?

Obviously envy is hardly an uncommon emotion, but its still strange to see it over something so trivial.

How can people simultaneously believe that an extra civ is something crucial to the game and that their game just won't be any good without it, but that it also is only worth an extra $2?

These kind of extras are one of the few ways that the developers for excellent games can manage to get slightly higher revenue per customer than the developers of weak or mediocre games.

If you really think the game is incomplete without Bablyon then think of it this way; the full game costs $60, and they're giving you a $10 discount (1/6 of the cost!) if you give up a couple of minor features.

 

[edpovi]

... Also, as many people including myself have said, a deluxe edition adds extra fluff, and should stay away from game content.

Why should bonus material be limited to fluff? As someone who often get the deluxe or collectors editions of games, I'm very excited to get an extra civ with my fluff. And you can spend more than $10 for popcorn and soda at the movies.

As SimonL has said, if you're willing to pay $10 for a civ, then you must also have been willing to pay several hundred dollars for a proper expansion pack like Beyond the Sword or Warlords.

Several hundred dollars? I would question your math here, but you are clearly just exaggerating your point. As others have pointed out, you get more than a extra Civ with the bonus material. However, it may be true that the only item in the deluxe package you have any interest in is the civ, the rest is worthless to you. That is why they sell bundles some times.

Buddles are usually better value than 'a la carte' pricing. I probably wouldn't pay $300 for an expansion, but I probably will buy a few DLC packs for CIV V at $10 to $20 a pack, assuming about $5 a civ. I would expect a major expansion to be priced in the $20 to $40 range. If you wait 2 - 3 years, you'll be able to buy a "Gold" edition with all the expansions for $40 - $60.

If I really wanted to get the most bang for my buck, I would wait for the "complete edition" that probably comes in 4-5 years. But I would rather play on Sep 21, and with Babylon as well. Therefore I will happily pay the $60, I predict I will get a better value for that money than a night at the local pub.

 

[ladedadedum]

If you really think the game is incomplete without Bablyon then think of it this way; the full game costs $60, and they're giving you a $10 discount (1/6 of the cost!) if you give up a couple of minor features.

or an alternative, they removed a feature to charge an extra $10 for it.

the point, which you seemed to completely miss, isn't about if it costs just a buck or 2, it's the fact that a whole playable faction is completely missing to try to sell the deluxe edition. what if SC2 regular edition came without zerg, that would never fly, we're supposed to be ok with it though?

 

[Ricci]

... It’s a great game and while maybe my time can be better spent my money almost surly cannot be.

It was the greatest of games until the release of this version... Oh, wait a min.. this hasn't happened yet!!!

 

[Rub'Rum]

With the base game costing $49.99, with 18 Civs, it comes out to a cost of $2.77 a civilization.

Um... no? There is a whole game in there, you can't just divide the 50$ by 18 and say it's 3$ a civ. There's a whole game you're ignoring in your calculation. At most the 18 civs were like half of the work. And that's a really high fraction I'm putting up there. It's more like 50 cents a civ.

Why should bonus material be limited to fluff? As someone who often get the deluxe or collectors editions of games, I'm very excited to get an extra civ with my fluff. And you can spend more than $10 for popcorn and soda at the movies.

Soda and popcorn is fluff. I pity people who waste their cash on them too. I never do. However, if they had a different and more complete ending to the movie that I could see if I was willing to buy soda and popcorn with the movie, then I'd be like "what the hell is this *@&!". And here I am going "what the hell is this @*@&" at 2K for this move with Civ.

However, it may be true that the only item in the deluxe package you have any interest in is the civ, the rest is worthless to you. That is why they sell bundles some times.

Exactly, thanks 2K for having me buy all kinds of stuff I'm not interested in and supposedly pretend this is worth 10$, in order to get game content. Well I'll just have to pass I guess. 'Cause I won't buy popcorn and soda to see the more complete ending.

 

[TheArsenal]

21 pages. Wow. How I see it:

Firaxis Guy 1: Time to work out the extras for the Deluxe Edition. You know how some fans really like their Deluxe Editions.

Firaxis Guy 2: Yeah, of course. What do you have in mind?

Firaxis Guy 1: It’s a little tougher with the digital download this time, no fancy tin boxes or books and the like … but I say a soundtrack and that making of video we did.

Firaxis Guy 2: Sounds a bit light for $10.00. How about an extra Civ thrown in? And maybe a map to go with it.

Firaxis Guy 1: Sure. Good idea. Babylon it is, then.

No conspiracy here. Just giving something extra to people who like to pay for something extra.

 

[Rub'Rum]

Wow TheArsenal, brilliant, you made everything clear for me now. Good thing you were there and you could tell us exactly how it happened.

Can sarcasm get me a mod warning?

 

[edpovi]

... 'Cause I won't buy popcorn and soda to see the more complete ending.

The option to buy or not is there; many will, many will not.

It's likely in my opinion that the first major expanion will include Babylon, with a bunch of other civs. Then you'll be able to point and laugh at the folks who brought the deluxe edition and whine about having to pay for something they already have to get more stuff.

I'll get the DE and the expansion and be happy as clam, but I'm also certain some will make much ado about nothing.

 

[Thyrwyn]

Sounds reasonable to me, unless you remember the conversation differently?

Civ V as announced: 18 civs.
Civ V as released: 18 civs
Deluxe Edition: +1 civ (and other stuff).

By my math, if they had removed a civ, then the vanilla edition would only have 17.

 

[Aramel]

or an alternative, they removed a feature to charge an extra $10 for it.

the point, which you seemed to completely miss, isn't about if it costs just a buck or 2, it's the fact that a whole playable faction is completely missing to try to sell the deluxe edition. what if SC2 regular edition came without zerg, that would never fly, we're supposed to be ok with it though?

I think it is far more likely that they would have just saved some money and only made 18 civs if there wasn't going to be a collector's edition. I mean it's not like researching ancient Babylonian is cheap! And with 18 civs, no one could accuse them of having less than civ4, so that seems like the right number. But if they can make some extra money from a collector's edition, suddenly making Babylon is worth it.

 

[TheArsenal]

To no one in particular:

Rewarding people who want (and pay for) something extra is not the same as punishing those who do not. This is the concept that seems to be getting muddled.