Zero day DLC = disrespecting the customer

[Rusty Edge]

The core game as announced remains unchanged. 18 core civs. You get the game as announced. Outrage because they already have a another Civ ready is well silly.....
Babylon is a bonus if you want it, not having it will not impede your ability to play.

I'm outraged about the first whiff of dribbling premium DLC fragmenting the core game before it's even released.

Unless Babylon is a scenario or simply a re-skinned clone of another civ among the other 18 civs, it is a change to the core programming with it's own particular traits and advantages. It means there are two versions of the core game out of the gate. Which one do you write a mod for? Which one is the Hall of Fame version? What if the flood-plain heavy /resource rich Mesopotamian map gives an unfair advantage for single-player Hall of Fame games? Will we have to clarify which version we use in forum discusions to avoid confusion? If there are no compatibillity issues for MP and PBEM because Babylon ships on all of the disks, but is unaccessible, then Phungus is right that it is content that's been removed or denied.

I see it as wrong turn. Let's keep everybody on the same page with the same game and annual expansions. Put the Dgin back in the bottle. Put the promised Babylon on the Mesopotamian map in a scenario for the premium customers, then offer them as part of the regular game in next year's expansion.

I've got no problem with Firaxis making profits. You want to get more people to buy the more profitable Steam version? Give it an earlier release date than hard copies.

 

[Iceciro]

I've got no problem with Firaxis making profits. You want to get more people to buy the more profitable Steam version? Give it an earlier release date than hard copies.

Steam, and publishers, would love to do this. But retail stores utterly freak and refuse to even stock a major game if digital distribution gets it first - its why steam copies sometimes have to wait until the middle of the day. Brick and mortar stores are jerks.

 

[need my speed]

Well, that's more than logic if one looks at all the piracy.

 

[Siran]

It will be modded quite quickly - but I've heard a lot of things about mods not playing very nicely with Steam... Chances are the developers thought out a plan to stop a mod that is basically the DLC.

Had absolutely no problems with mods with Steam and Civ IV. All of the worked as inteded with no further hasseling. Can't speak for all the other games on Steam but it doesn't have to be problem.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Steam, and publishers, would love to do this. But retail stores utterly freak and refuse to even stock a major game if digital distribution gets it first - its why steam copies sometimes have to wait until the middle of the day. Brick and mortar stores are jerks.

Jerks eh? That's pretty harsh. They're operating a business and that happens to be part of the deal. Do you think shelf space comes with zero cost? Do you think it's unreasonable for "brick-and-mortar" stores to refuse to put themselves in a disadvantaged position? Those poor gamers who don't get their game a few hours earlier.

@phungus,

It's a lot too early for me to say whether I'm bothered by the DLC option or any of its consequences. I still have little to no idea what the modding front is going to look like.

Unlike with Civ4, this time round I'm going to wait and see what people think of the game before going and buying it. An extra civ is not enough to convince me to fork over $100 on a preorder on a game I know next to nothing about.

If it ends up somehow splitting the modding community down the middle (though I doubt it and suspect something will be done to keep modders happy), I'll most likely take the side of modders who insist on not developing mods that require DLC.

 

[Tee Kay]

I find the DLC offensive, though I'm not too worried about it because there'll be a Babylon mod anyway.

 

[faizan]

Exactly this.
It's just money making.
What if they said, you can buy civ with 10 nations, and get the other X (yes, 8 here) as DLC at the first day?
They are crippling the game just for the money.

I can understand, when they do later on other civs and release them for money (which i sure would NOT buy, but i would understand it), there you can say, that they did not have enough time, enough artists, enough whatever and had to do more important things.
But not with DLC at the first day.
Could not have found a better word than disrespectful.

Lol, they are in the business to make money...this isn't a non-profit organization my friend.

And they are not doing anything wrong or unethical. The game is fully playable without Babylon. However, if you are a big fan of that particular civ, then you will be eager to pay the extra amount for the deluxe version.

It is just like any other downloadable content. A special gun, armor or whatever else. Sure other people miss out on that extra weapon, which is similar to missing out on a particular civ, but if they feel the need to have it, they can buy it.

So I don't understand what the big deal is here...this isn't a core or fundamental item to the game. You can play without it. From the complaints going on here, people are making it out to be as if the standard version of the game is a car without tires forcing people to go to a deluxe...which isn't the case at all.

The Babylon add-on is like wanting the navigation function in a car, its not required for the vehicle to perform its purpose, but people have the option to pay extra to get it.

Think about it, all those new CIV's & features you get part of CIV4 BTS and Warlord could have been implemented in the original CIV4 as well, but it wasn't. A business always looks a few years ahead whenever they plan on making something.

So they already know of any add-on's or expansion packs they intend to make for CIV5.

 

[Iceciro]

Jerks eh? That's pretty harsh.

Sorry, sarcasm doesn't translate well on the internet. I wish people would feel the same way about "just trying to run a business/make money" as far as DLC/steam goes. I'm not a fan of the launch DLC but I've already said my peice on why it makes business sense. As for me? Waiting to see if there's some sort of pre-order deal beyond a map (which you can WorldBuilder) or a bonus civ (which I can mod), specifically, money off. Otherwise I'll just wait for the post-sale deals to hit.

 

[troytheface]

i will stand behind the op and wag a finger as well

terrible idea-

old timers already hate the idea of paying things like monthly fees or for something "extra"

and there are old timer civ players all over the place

 

[Civinator]

What I do not understand or agree with on any level is intentionally removing core game content in an effort to squeeze loyal fans for more dollars; as I said it's juts plain disrespectful and shallow.

Here -and I think this is the first time - I agree with you. But it seems, this is not the first time Firaxis is doing this. With Civ 5 they only do it more open, as Civ 4 showed them, that they can tell complete nonsense to their customers and these customers believe it - even years later. When going deeper in Civ 3, there are some signs, that here also some features that existed from start, were cut out, to use them later for the expansion packs. After the necessairy patches for Civ 3, these parts didn´t harmonize and triggered some confusion with the code (so my theory).

 

[Siran]

That some features existed from the start doesn't mean that it was cut out. In the process of programming software it is rather common that you start implementing something and later notice, that it doesn't work they way it was intended and it's better not to give your customer a feature, that doesn't work, than to give it to him and get all kind of complains because it doesn't work. Projects have deadlines and mor often than not you will have the deadline coming up and to much stuff to do in not enough time.

 

[Yakk]

What Firaxis is doing with Babylon is investing the time and energy to create a full new civ, and then intentionally removing it from the base game, merely as a way to bilk customers that already intend on purchasing the main product. This is just downright disrespectful. The Firaxis devs have created this content, but are turning around and intentionally removing it in order to get fans of the series to pay more; doesn't this strike anyone else as being inappropriate?

You seem to have some strange idea of what you are paying for?

It is an extra civilisation. It isn't anything core to the game, it is just another civilisation.

This does not change the fact Firaxis is intentionally remove core game content in order to maximize profits

I still don't understand. Why cannot they have a person allocated to doing extra DLC?

They are crippling the game just for the money.

Once again, I don't understand. Of course they want money -- that is how they will pay back the loans they took out to pay the developers, and then return a profit to the investors who provided money to pay the developers.

I can understand, when they do later on other civs and release them for money (which i sure would NOT buy, but i would understand it), there you can say, that they did not have enough time, enough artists, enough whatever and had to do more important things.

How about enough money?

You can always get more artists, more developers, etc. Those are easy to get. Money is the hard thing to get.

With money, you can get developers and artists. Developers and artists, meanwhile, don't always give you money.

In order to get money, you have to have a plan to make money. Having a plan like "we'll offer a delux pack for people who want to give is more money, and give them an extra civilisation" is a way to convince the people who have money to give you more money to write the game.

This provides additional programmers, developers and artists.

"get to receive a whole new civ with awesome leader Nebuchadnezzar and Babylonian Bowmen to pwnz0r my enemies"

You are now implying that Babylon is some kind of over-powered option. In civ, over-powered civs are as likely to be your opponents as you.

...

What is going on here is that they are looking for people who are more price-inelastic with regards to buying a copy of civ5. They know that the utter cheapscates who will do anything to avoid spending money are going to pirate it. The next tier up are the people who are willing to pay to have it downloaded rather than go through the hoops of finding a trustworthy piracy website. Then the deluxe customers are those for whom throwing an extra 10$ at the game is something that isn't that painful.

Firaxis wants that extra 10$, because that extra 10$ is bonus profit.

This isn't DLC -- it is an extra civ.

Unless Babylon is a scenario or simply a re-skinned clone of another civ among the other 18 civs, it is a change to the core programming with it's own particular traits and advantages.

What the? You appear to be familiar with modding.

An extra civ in civ4 consists of assets. That's it. Not one little bit of additional core programming.

Maybe the traits and advantages in civ5 will require more than just data files (it is surprising if it does), but if so I'd expect it to be modular -- a DLL that codes in the extra traits that stands alone, instead of part of the monolithic DLL, for sanities sake.

Had absolutely no problems with mods with Steam and Civ IV. All of the worked as inteded with no further hasseling. Can't speak for all the other games on Steam but it doesn't have to be problem.

I suspect if you "mod" by splatting over the core game Assets directory, problems develop.

 

[Rusty Edge]

Steam, and publishers, would love to do this. But retail stores utterly freak and refuse to even stock a major game if digital distribution gets it first - its why steam copies sometimes have to wait until the middle of the day. Brick and mortar stores are jerks.

Oh. I hadn't considered this.

I can't blame them for standing up for themselves. I may become a jerk, too, and refuse to buy anything frrom Steam or anyone else selling exclusive DLC for CIV.

 

[Iceciro]

Eh, if it really bothers you so much buy the base game. If you wait a few hours, someone will likely have a Babylon mod up. It might not have pretty pictures like the DLC version, but the mechanics are all XML-based and shouldn't be a pain to unlock. If they have somehow encrypted the mechanics so the 'official' Babylonians get an advantage, we have a way bigger problem than just DLC.

 

[xenobiotic]

Supply and demand.

There are enough buyers to justify the DLC and they calculated that they will not lose enough sales to offended vets to offset the profits of the DLC. Why not do it?

 

[Iceciro]

Sadly it really doesn't take much sales to justify DLC. Horse armor made a profit too.
For the record I think subtraction-DLC is worse than cancer. But I also don't think the loss of a few lines of easily-replicated XML code is going to kill Civ V. Now, if they've somehow figured out a way to lock out custom versions of such civs, we're going to have a real problem.

 

[Akka]

As long as consumers act like dumb sheeps and pay for DLC, these kind of schemes will continue and expand. They will until they reach the wall where even idiots say "stop" - which can mean, sadly, pretty far, seeing how many people are gleefully ignorant and even praise DLC.

But it sure put a big dent into the respect I had for Firaxis. Gutting a whole civilization from the game... Wow, that's really disappointing...

 

[Lord_Phan]

Altering the files to gain possesion of DLC that you didn't pay for would put you in violation of piracy laws. Hosting a Mod that unlocked DLC for those that didn't pay for them would put the website(CFC) in violation of piracy laws and result in litigation to close down the site.

Other consequences could also include 'confiscation' of your game by steam, resulting in you losing the game you paid for and/or you entire steam account and access to MP.

Go check out www.twcenter.net and you'll find a comparable game series that implemented DLC and the legal ramifications of said act.

 

[Lord_Phan]

There would be however nothing to stop you from making your own Babylon civ with it's own artwork(Not a reskin of the DLC that would be illegal) Also units from the DLC would be forbidden to alter for anyone who dosn't own the DLC.

 

[Iceciro]

There would be however nothing to stop you from making your own Babylon civ with it's own artwork(Not a reskin of the DLC that would be illegal) Also units from the DLC would be forbidden to alter for anyone who dosn't own the DLC.

That's what I'm talking about doing. Miss out on the artwork, but same mechanics.