ZF1 - Zed's Training Day Game

[Padma]

Moi? Padma the Peaceful?



Okay, I have been known to stomp the occasional civ into the ground. I don't think in an SG, though.... Seems it's usually been my part to recover and rebuild after the wars.

But rest assured, if the situation warrents it, somebody will get stomped!

 

[Mystery13]

Here is the report. The game save and screenshot to follow as soon as I get home.

More from the Mysterious leader who comes along every 20 turns or so...

Lots of goals:
1. build granaries and marketplaces
2. start FP in Tientsin
3. eliminate cathedral building
4. create settlers in size 12 cities
5. turn on research for Chivalry
6. build Infantry to support upcoming war efforts

Preturn:

MM Canton/Anyang to ensure Canton has all prosperous lands
I let Beijing finish the Cathedral since changing now wastes too many shields
Xinjian switches from Cathedral to Library
Dockanda Bay to Settler
Tientsin to FP
Turn on research to 50%, Chivalry in 7 (higher research resulted in 22 gpt loss)
Get engineering from Iroquois for WM and Monotheism

IT
Dockanda Bay builds settler, switches to spear
Tuskany Bay builds Horseman, switches to Markets
Tsingtao builds Horseman, switches to Harbor

460AD
We can now trade with the Iroquois, but they have nothing to give. Will try to road to Japan
next.
Military advisor shows we have 28 horses.
Worker and troop movement

IT
Nanking builds courthouse, switches to Markets

470AD
Worker and troop movement

IT
Dockanda Bay builds spear, switches to Library
Chengdu builds horse, keeps doing it

480AD
Drop scienc to 40%, Chivalry still in 4 but now +28gpt instead of -3.
Worker and troop movement

IT
Hangchow builds horse, switches to worker (then aqueduct).
Macao builds courthouse, switches to Markets.
Anyang builds granary, switches to Harbor.

490AD
Worker and troop movement

IT
Persia and Iroquois ally against Babs, Persia declares war on Babs
Canton builds granary, switches to Markets
Xinjian builds library, switches to spear
Diamond Delta builds horse, switches to Courthouse

500AD
Worker and troop movement

IT
Lots of buildings going on, switching to markets, horses and settlers as appropriate

510
Worker and troop movement

IT
We learn Chivalry!!! Switch to Invention, though I shut down research

520AD
Worker and troop movement

530AD
Worker and troop movement
Trade check, still only with Iroquois
No one else has Chivalry
English have Invention, but want arms and legs for it so I decline

IT
England demands tribute! They want Chivalry. Sure...come and get it.
She apparently has no stomach for war just yet.
Japan and Babs make peace.
English building Leonardo

540AD
Workers near Tientsin trying to build road to Japan. Therefore, they are currently roading
through jungle to get there quickly. We have two extra gems that need to be traded.

550AD
Worker and troop movement
A quick check of the advisors.
We now have 24 Riders! 11 more horsies waiting to be upgraded.
Also, 12 pikes and 7 spears.

Obviously, our iron is reconnected.

Military power:
To Persia we are strong
To Babs we are strong
To England we are average
To Iroquois we are strong
To Japan we are strong

For the most part I followed Zed's building instructions...finish infra in first ring then
switch to horses and spears. Start infra in second ring cities. Pull workers back to second
ring at least. Hook up Iro and Japan for trading. Get Chivalry and upgrade. Hopefully,
all items executed successfully.

 

[Mystery13]

Here's the save

 

[Mystery13]

 

[Zed-F]

Comments:

Not much to say, the situation looks good. We are the largest civ and almost certainly the best-developed civ, both in terms of infrastructure and in terms of improved lands. The game is basically won, all we need to do is convince the AIs of it.

When we get the current round of markets done, see if we still need that 10% lux tax. If not, we can save a significant amount of gpt. When we go to war, keep an eye on happiness at home, and reinstitute/raise the lux tax if necessary.

Padma gets the choice of whether to go after the Iros or Japan first with our new army. Safer attack is the Iros, followed by Japan after we wipe out the Iros or reduce them to the one far-away city. A couple of tips for all of you regarding war:
- The one thing we don't want to have happen is to lose a large stack of Riders due to a city flip, so try not to keep Riders in a city unless they need to heal, and raze large cities rather than capturing them. Remember the flip formula is based on (# enemy resisters x2 + number of pacified enemy citizens + number of enemy-held tiles in city radius - number of garrison troops) so try to heal up in cities with low enemy pop and with few enemy tiles in radius, and concentrate healing troops in one such city while the fresh troops press the attack. Use a settler to found such a city if you need to.
- Starve captured cities down to size 1 and let them rebuild. The new citizens will be Chinese so we will only have 1 foreign national per city.
- For permanent garrison, use pikes rather than Riders. This especially on the borders with other civs since they will have increased flip-pressure due to the other civ's borders expanding when we capture the target civ's border towns.
- The target civ will have a certain amount of mobile forces they can throw at us, so at first you will need to move a bit more slowly and let the pikes guard your riders, so that if the enemy counterattacks the easily replaceable pikes can absorb the losses and keep the Riders fresh for offense. Once the enemy mobile forces are depleted, you will be able to send your Riders throughout their empire and pretty much assault any town you please with impunity.
- Expect larger losses at bigger cities, as cities larger than 6 (or having walls) get a defensive bonus, as well as tending to have more defenders, so bring more troops to compensate. Generally you want at least double the number of expected defenders; for small towns with only 1 or 2 defenders you need 3-4+ attackers, depending on the terrain, whereas the enemy capital tends to be heavily reinforced and will often take 8+ attackers to take in one round. Taking in one round is desirable as it prevents the enemy from healing or sending reinforcements.
- We want to fully utilize the land and coast around our FP since it will be low corrution once it is done. It may be worthwhile to raze any inconveniently-placed enemy cities and replace them with better-positioned ones, if you can find places where you can replace one city with two, or 2 cities with 3. Don't go hog-wild with it, however; every (small) enemy settlement we capture will save us a settler and the time needed to get him there.
- Remember the basic rules of combat; don't attack across rivers or into defensible terrain where it can be avoided. Try to attack from defensible terrain if you expect that a counter-attack might be in the offing. Once you've exhausted the enemy mobile forces you can go ahead and stick on flat terrain to speed your assault.
- One important thing to remember about going to war is you don't need to build military in all your cities throughout the war; that's an AI fallacy! However, it's much more useful to build reinforcements at the beginning of the war to acheive/maintain a numerical advantage than at the middle/end when the enemy is out of reserves and you're down to just mopping up his cities. This is also influenced by entering a Golden Age when you go to war (as we are about to do) as that is the perfect time to get long-running infrastructure projects off to a flying start or finish them up quickly, so you want to target those wherever possible, while still keeping some cities building military to replace losses in the field.

Remember, a rapid war leads to less enemy-held tiles in radius for shorter amounts of time, and pushes the enemy capital away from their core cities faster, thus reducing flip chances. It also reduces war weariness in our cities, and gives the enemy less time to produce reinforcements. So, they key to rapid war is to make sure you have a decisive amount of forces available, and then strike hard and don't let up until you reach your objective (usually when the enemy civ falls.) Rapid war works best when you have ample time to build up and strike at your leisure, but you can apply elements of the concept to any war.

 

[Padma]

Got it.

Will try to play tonight/tomorrow.

 

[Padma]

Pre-turn: Dockonda Bay - took a worker off wheat and put him on mine - gained a shield of output, and still producing 6 food - we're at size 12, anyway.

1) 560 AD: Dockonda Bay finishes Library. I start a Pike. Tatung completes a settler. I agree to another Pike. Upgrade some Horses and Spearmen.

it) Persians would like us to join them in war against Babylon. I decline; they're clear across the continent, for goodness sake!

2) 570 AD: Tuscany Bay finishes Marketplace. Starts Pike. Xinjian finishes Pikeman, starts Courthouse. Chengdu finishes a Pike, starts another.

3) 580 AD: Our valiant galley is engaged by a barbarian, and sinks. I micromanage Tientsin, getting growth in 4 turns instead of 7, yet leaving the FP unchanged at 25 turns. All Horse are now upgraded to Riders (35); only 4 Spearmen remain - 18 Pikemen. I am beginning to be bothered by the presence of Akwesasne, the Iro city on our north side. That should be OUR territory, right?

4) 590 BC: Beijing has produced another RIder. I agree to allowing it to produce ONE more Pike, as it only has one in defense right now. Dockonda Bay completes it's second Pike. I decide to go for Cathedral; at size 12 it will help keep the people happier, especially when we reduce the Lux Tax. Nanking completes Marketplace, and starts Rider. Akwesasne is an irritating splotch of purple on our north. I can't stand it any longer. I demand Akwesasne from Hiawatha. After all, it is in OUR territory, more than his. He doesn't take it well, so we go to war over it.

A stack of 5 Riders attack Akwesasne. One is killed by a defending Spearman, and another reduced to 1 HP, but the third and fourth finish off the defenders, with the fourth becoming elite. Akwesasne is ours! And we enter a Golden Age!

A similar situation is had in Niagra Falls. We lose a Rider, and injure another, but create an elite, and take over the city.

Oil Springs Falls to a Task Force of 10 Riders, producing no casualties, but two elites!

IT) Iros attack one of our forward deployed Riders with a Mounted Warrior. Across a river. I think the Iro drowned trying to cross the stream.

5) 600 AD: Beijing completes its Pike, and I start another Horse. Shanghai completes its marketplace, and I start another Pike for home defense. Canton finishes its Market, and starts Cathedral. Same with Tuscany Bay. Chengdu also starts Cathedral, after completing Pike. And the people add a story to our palace. Oil Springs resistance is put down, and we put the resistors to work as entertainers. They may as well be happy as they starve.

I check the Lux Tax slider. Hmm, Tsingtao, Chengdu, and Tatung will riot if I go below 10%, so I leave it there.

6) 610 AD: Salamanca falls to a stack of Riders. Another makes elite. The Iro capitol moves to Grand River (due west). Other stacks of Riders move towards Allegheny and Mauch Chunk. Several cities complete their current builds, and I put them all on Pikemen; quick to build, and needed to defend our new territories.

7) 620 AD: Resistance ends in Salamanca; set to starvation. Shanghai completes a Pikeman, and starts a Rider. Xinjian completes Pike and starts Rider. Padmativa completes Temple and starts Pikeman. Since we are making money hand over fist right now, (+361 gpt) I rush temples in our currently captured cities, and still have 223 left in the treasury. Allegheny falls to our mighty Riders.

8) 630 AD: Resistance ends in Allegheny; set to starvation. Mauch Chunk and Centralia fall to our forces. Set to starve. We lost two more riders taking Mauch Chunk.

9) 640 AD: Beijing completes Pike, starts another. Tsingtao completes Rider, but I start it on a Galley. I just noticed a purple border in the water SW of the Iro lands. They must have a city on another island there. War news: just cleaning up some spearman/archer infestations, and resting the Riders for the next phase.

10) 650 AD: Our Riders take Tonawanda. More are positioned to take Cattaraugus. Still more are converging through the mountains to take St. Regis. Some scattered spearman/archer cleanup done. Cities that completed their current projects were set to Pikemen and Riders.

There are just 3 Iro cities left in their original homeland. Two more are way out west, and (at least) one on an island to the southwest.

I may have left a couple of Pikemen on long gotos heading to the former Iro lands for garrison duty.

Next player should be able to clean up the original Iro homeland easily. Still 14 (?) turns of Golden Age left, too.

I will submit save and pictures tomorrow. Right now I am just to beat.

 

[Zed-F]

Pre-turn: Dockonda Bay - took a worker off wheat and put him on mine - gained a shield of output, and still producing 6 food - we're at size 12, anyway.

1) 560 AD: Dockonda Bay finishes Library. I start a Pike. Tatung completes a settler. I agree to another Pike. Upgrade some Horses and Spearmen.

If there were any irrigated grass being worked, better to move one of them, or build a worker and mine some of them. The irrigated wheat is a great resource to give you the bonus food to keep you at +4 pop, you might as well use it and change irrigation to mines elsewhere! Also, Dockonda Bay is already at size 12 and stuck, it should be building a worker or settler after the Library, and then the Pike.

3) 580 AD: Our valiant galley is engaged by a barbarian, and sinks. I micromanage Tientsin, getting growth in 4 turns instead of 7, yet leaving the FP unchanged at 25 turns

Tientsin does not have an Aqueduct, AFAIK, and it's not on fresh water. Why micro for growth when the city is stuck at 6 anyway? We should be going for max shields and forget growth for the moment. After the FP is finished we can rush an aqueduct and market (and granary if we dont already have one) and swap to grow-like-a-weed mode.

Dockonda Bay completes it's second Pike. I decide to go for Cathedral; at size 12 it will help keep the people happier, especially when we reduce the Lux Tax. Nanking completes Marketplace, and starts Rider. Akwesasne is an irritating splotch of purple on our north. I can't stand it any longer. I demand Akwesasne from Hiawatha. After all, it is in OUR territory, more than his. He doesn't take it well, so we go to war over it.

Hmm, don't agree. We don't need Pikes for defense at home so much as for garrison duty in Iro lands. Why have 2 pikes in a city that's never going to get attacked with a serious assault force? We don't even get MP benefits out of it. Send the Pike up north and keep building more! With 5 local lux, our Market produces 9 happy faces; if that needs a little lux tax to supplement it until we have a good number of garrison troops going then that's fine. I thought the Market alone would be enough happy, but we might need one more lux to do the job. However, that should be easy enough to arrange; keep an eye on the trade screen and see if we can get one, and check if we will get any new lux sources when we conquer Iro lands!

Did you remember to check if we had an active RoP or any trade deals up with the Iros before demanding their city? We don't want to blacken our rep, especially not to no purpose. We still want to be able to buy stuff off the civs we aren't currently at war with, for somewhat reasonable prices...

5) 600 AD: Beijing completes its Pike, and I start another Horse. Shanghai completes its marketplace, and I start another Pike for home defense. Canton finishes its Market, and starts Cathedral. Same with Tuscany Bay. Chengdu also starts Cathedral, after completing Pike. And the people add a story to our palace. Oil Springs resistance is put down, and we put the resistors to work as entertainers. They may as well be happy as they starve.

I check the Lux Tax slider. Hmm, Tsingtao, Chengdu, and Tatung will riot if I go below 10%, so I leave it there.

More Cathedrals and pikes used for local defense in unthreatened cities. The good news is Cathedrals will complete quickly during the Golden Age, and usually the Golden Age is a good time to catch up on infrastructure. The bad news is we don't really need them; all we need is ONE extra lux source and the markets would take care of the job until we get Hospitals (if the game doesn't end before then.) Those spare pikes also need to move up to the front lines where they can do some good as garrison troops and to guard our Riders from counter-attacks. Don't forget that our next target after the Iros is going to be Japan, and they will likely be a much more credible threat; they are bigger, and by the time we get to them, they will probably have Chivalry.

Defenders everywhere is viable (a) if you have rails and could get sneak-attacked anywhere by anyone you have an ROP with, or if you expect coastal invasions and don't have an idea of the general area they are likely to land, and don't have a navy to scout them out. Before rails, however, usually the AI can't generate a credible naval assault, and in this instance almost all the AI civs will be able to reach us over land anyway. So, our rear areas are all pretty much safe from attack.

BTW, while you're checking the trade screen for lux, see if you can find out who has contact with the Zulu and buy contact -- and update our WM while you're at it! Remember to establish an embassy as well, and check for RoPs. Some might need to be renewed for more cash... not with Japan though. We will be after them soon, so if we do have an active RoP with them we will need to think about cancelling it after we have mopped up the Iros.

Oil Springs entertainers... taxmen might be better. At least we get some cash out of them as they starve, and specialists never get happy or unhappy. Remember to re-check this every turn they starve as the governor will automatically put people back to work each time the city shrinks.

6) 610 AD: Salamanca falls to a stack of Riders. Another makes elite. The Iro capitol moves to Grand River (due west). Other stacks of Riders move towards Allegheny and Mauch Chunk. Several cities complete their current builds, and I put them all on Pikemen; quick to build, and needed to defend our new territories.

Better late with the garrison troops in Iro lands than never. Should have been there already or at least on the way though.

I should mention that some of our 2nd- and 3rd- ring cities may still need basic infrastructure (aqueducts/markets/granaries/temples) and if so they should continue to work on those during the golden age. Optionals like libraries and cathedrals can be skipped though.

7) 620 AD: Resistance ends in Salamanca; set to starvation. Shanghai completes a Pikeman, and starts a Rider. Xinjian completes Pike and starts Rider. Padmativa completes Temple and starts Pikeman. Since we are making money hand over fist right now, (+361 gpt) I rush temples in our currently captured cities, and still have 223 left in the treasury. Allegheny falls to our mighty Riders.

An example of what I was just talking about... Padmativa should still be on infrastructure mode. Now is a great time to build a courthouse if it doesn't already have one, for instance.

Rushing temples, ok. (Get at least one shield first, or if you have to rush a worker from scratch, then swap to temple and rush from there.) Keep in mind that we will want to be using lots of cash for infrastructure anywhere near our FP city, so don't go hog-wild rushing stuff that's too far away; everything you mentioned capturing so far should be reasonably close, though, and so good places to rush stuff. Remember to apply the 1st-ring/2nd-ring/3rd-ring/boonies concept here to see what's close and what's not.

If we prioritize where we spend our cash well, we will get a much better and quicker return on investment. This will net us even more GPT income which we can use to rush in less ideally located cities, or use to augment our war effort with rushed troops/walls/critical buildings.

The rest of your turn sounds like mop-up, with the Iros being out of gas. Rather than try and eliminate them, we should see what we can wring out of them in the peace treaty. Finish conquering their original homeland, and see if you can get any island cities they have in exchange for peace, rather than going to the bother of shipping stuff out there. Leave them their 2 cities in the far west; they are too corrupt to do us any good, and if their capital moves there it will be too far away to be a significant factor in worsening our flip risk, so it would be better for us to rest up our troops and remuster them to the Japanese front once they are done with the Iro homeland. Just remember to keep starving those Iro cities and building temples. Don't rush temples except where you need them to seal our borders once the Iros are kicked out of their homeland -- they won't prevent flips since there will be no enemy tiles in radius anyway.

NOTE: If there were more flip-pressure coming from the Iros, or we had less culture and the Iros more, I would say go ahead and wipe them out. In this instance, though, I think we're relatively safe from flipping, and we need to refocus on the Japs to get the most out of our FP.

 

[Zed-F]

ChrTh, If you get to the point of being ready to go after the Japanese on your turn (unlikely, but possible) remember to bring along lots of pikes to absorb any counter-attacks the Japs might make. I didn't see much evidence of this on Padme's turn but perhaps he simply didn't mention it. It's also possible that the Iros didn't really have much in the way of a mobile army to throw at him. The Japs should be able to put together a bit more credible counter-punch, so it's important that that be absorbed as much as possible on our cheap Pikemen than on our expensive Riders.

Of course, it is possible that the Japs are nearly as weak as the Iros, in which case we will have just prepared for the worst and gotten a better-than-worst result. Even if not, the Japs will run out of gas at some point as well, at which time we can let our Riders run rampant.

 

[Padma]

Well, I said I was tired when I was playing.

I agree, there was definite weed in that turn.

The Iros rolled over even faster than I expected. I only saw two Mounted Warriors. Everything else has been a smattering of spearmen and archers. I was actually beginning to worry I'd run too fast and get stretched too thin.

A stack of 4-5 Riders is heading south through the mountains to reach St. Regis, the southernmost Iro city on the continent. By the time that is reached and taken, the other two cities in the homeland should be toast, also. Then prepare for Japan.

I don't think I did anything to really hurt our rep. Nobody got mad at us, except Japan, and he just went from polite to cautious.

Last time I checked (admittedly a couple turns before the end) nobody knew the Zulus. But that Iro city off the SW coast may be on the Zulu continent. It is possible they know the Zulu, but found them after the war started. When we make peace, be sure to get their WM.

The Japanese have not made any threatening moves as yet. I have also tried to keep a reasonably credible force in our border cities. We need to replace some of the defending Riders with Pikemen, though.

I see I am rambling, so I will stop now. Too many long days with short sleep. I'm not as resilient as I was 20 yrs ago.

Oh, yeah, I will post the save as soon as I get home from work, in 4 - 5 hrs.

 

[Padma]

Sorry for the delay. My wife surprised me with a "we're going out to dinner" statement when she picked me up from work today.

First, the western side of our empire (the former Iroquois homeland):

Next, the East, our core:

 

[Padma]

And then the save:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/ZF1-china-650ad.zip

 

[Zed-F]

Yuck. That jungle will be murder on our Riders when we go after Japan. My vote is we use their road net, go for their core first to cripple their production and draw out as many defenders as possible, and skip the jungle until the mop-up phase. Be wary of possible flips, there will probably be lots of enemy tiles in radius of any city we capture.

 

[Mystery13]

Hello, is there anybody out there? ChrTh, you're up when you get a chance.

 

[ChrTh]

Yep, I'm up...I'll be playing tomorrow night (Monday Night, EDT)

I need to fully review the situation aforehand. My military prowess is non-existent. Any additional advice would be most appreciated

 

[Zed-F]

Pretty much the same advice I gave Padma applies here. Reread that post if you want some tips. I remember last time you attacked with 1 horseman; hopefully you now know not to do that again. Being tentative on the attack is counter-productive unless you're just making a probing attack (i.e. recon) or a diversion. A better way to keep your troops safe is to make a stack big enough to squish whatever it comes across and absorb a few losses in the process without flinching. If you're concerned about counter-attacks, keep some defensive troops mixed in and you'll do fine.

And watch the terrain to see where it is good to attack from, where it is bad to attack from.

 

[Padma]

@ChrTh: From a little more strategic persepctive, there is a stack of 4 or 5 in the mountains south of Salamanca. Work that stack south to St. Regis and take that city. The stack outside Cattaraugus should take that city. Riders from Cattaraugus and/or Tonawanda can then take Grand River.

Be sure to leave a few troops in each city to quell resistance and help prevent flips. I was foolish and didn't bring along enough pikemen to perform garrison duties. We are paying for that foolishness now by having to move them in from our core area, tying up good offensive riders on garrison duty.

Also, I left a galley building in Tsingtao (ready in 2 turns). You might want to check out that town across the water to the southwest,. If it's feasible, ferry 4 - 6 riders across and take it (or raze it) too.

 

[Mystery13]

Also, we should have two settlers hanging around...one in Tientsin and one built in Tatung. We could rebuild a couple of Iro cities if we don't want too many troops garrisoning.

 

[Zed-F]

Settlers to rebuild cities is best when you are in the early stages of conquest or faced with large enemy cities you'd prefer to raze, in which case you use a settler to get a city with no enemy resisters/citizens so that the flip odds are reduced. You can then use that city as a forward base to heal troops and rush improvements needed to hold the city (walls/barracks/temple/harbour for resources & lux/airport). Once you're in the late stages of conquest and there are no big cities left to take out, you usually capture instead as (a) the conquest should complete quickly enough that flip risk is minimal, and (b) you usually don't want to pop enough settlers to resettle their entire land. In that case you would use settlers more to fill in areas you had previously razed or that the AI had made inefficient use of.

In this instance, I'd say save the settlers for use against Japan, unless there's a big region of unworked land/coast near our FP city we need to fill in.

 

[Mystery13]

As usual, you make perfect sense.

By the way, I have another question. What is the honorable way to start a war (if there is one). If I remember, Padma demanded a city and when the Iro refused, we attacked. I believe on the RBD site, they say making demands is not honorable. In the RBD games, are you only allowed to go to war when another country has troops on your land? Or can you just decide that now is a good time and attack (as long as there are no active agreements)?