ZP Hungarian Settlers

[cool3a2]

The thing is that we Hungarians have a different view on this. Transylvania was not really a romanian country. There were a plenty of hungarian leaders there, too (Rákóczi, Bethlen, the Báthorys...). Saying those Hungarians are simply part of the romanian culture is, well, stealing the Hungarians culture. The people in question didn't live in a romanian country before Trianon. That's a fact. Whether there were Romanians in Transylvania and whether they influenced its history is another question (there were and they did). Therefor there is also some mixing of cultural features, but these settlers aren't an example of this. But you might us Bakuels worker.

 

[kochman]

Transylvania is basically a mix of Romanian/German/Hungarian cultures... to make the more unique Transylvanian culture. This is not stealing from Hungarian culture to say this. Nor is it stealing from German. But denying the similarities is stealing from Romanian culture since Transylvania is a Romanian land and has had a large impact on the country overall (arguably more impact than Transylvania has had on either Germany or Hungary for that matter).

 

[cool3a2]

Now, my son, I have more time to write an answer to you. Although I don't want to start another Romanians vs. Hungarians discussion, but I simply can't keep silent after this.

The first thing I'd like to say is, that I never said that there is no mixing of Romanian and German and Hungarian culture. Actually the opposite is true: I even suggested that Bakuels hungarian worker might suit. Actually even Absinthe and The Capo didn't claim that there is no mixing - they never said a single word about that. All they said is that these settlers aren't accurate for Romania. And The Capo, as American, is actually neutral. I can't say whether these settlers are accurate for Romanians or not - I've never been there. But my feeling about that, is no, they aren't. I was involved in the creation of these settlers: I searched the pictures (although I would have prefered a woman in Boldog-ish clothing ). In a consequence, Zerver asked me for searching more pictures of other nations clothing as he wanted to make more civil units. And I also searched for romanian clothing and guess what? I didn't find any picture showing Romanians in clothing like that... You said...

The guys outfit, it is seen in Romania as well...

That alone doesn't say anything. The people you were thinking about could be Hungarians like Székelys or Csángós (the latter can even be found outside Transylvania). I found good pictures of romanian men, but they look much different. Still, I think the man might be used as Mexican (thinking of Zorro) - but not the woman!

Now to your statements...

Ever heard of "Transylvania"?

With a little evilness I could argue that you try to provocate us Hungarians. I don't know about your ethnic background, but this sounds like you are either a Romanian nationalist or someone who has no clue about the matter. As Erdély is directly connected with Trianon (I mean, in hungarian heads) and Trianon is a trauma in Hungary, what you said is quite similar to asking a Japanese whether he ever heard of Hiroshima... Honestly, if you don't have any clue about the matter, you should simply stop talking about it...

the bottom line is, hungarians have long be a part of the romanian country/culture.

80 years only. Before that it was not more romanian dominated then hungarian or german. Although it's not a historic source, it seems to be well recherched, so take a look at the europa universalis series. AFAIK in all its parts the culture of Trnasylvania is given as Hungarian.
Also, Transylvania is not Romania and Romania is not Transylvania! Actually my grandma recently said about Transylvania "Well, that's actually Hungary, it's only cut off." (Just to show you how emotional and hot this topic is - and thus how careful you should be with it - and how Hungarians think about Erdély) There are Romanians outside Transylvania with different folk art and there is folk art in Transylvania that is not originally Romanian. They might have take it over from Hungarians (as well as Hungarians may have taken over folk art from Romanians), but the question is: is it originally romanian and is it typical? Also, romanian continuity theory is not profen - otherwise it would be no theory. There are good points for it, there are also hawks and gaps. So, just don't start saying Erdély was always romanian, okay?
Last thing I'd like to say about this statement is: the Hungarian culture was never - and never will be! - part of the romanian culture nor vice versa. Their roots are quite different - they could be hardly more different! Hungarian culture is asian (or eurasian if you prefer) whereas Romanian is european.

Lastly, I'd like to mention that transylvanian Saxons say almost the same things about Romanians as Hungarians say about them: they steal their history and culture and claim it to be ancient roman. Already two fractions that complain about the same thing... Just said that to prevend you are calling me a hungarian nationalist.

It's a pitty. When you started your Romania mod, I hoped there would be a mod about that nation that would be polite towards us and thus could be an alternative to Aranors (considering the leader anyways fantasy-stylish) mod. Seems like I get disappointed. Hell, one could get impression that Romanians don't have enough stuff that is unquestionably theirs that they have to borrow it from others or from 'fuzzy origin'...

 

[kochman]

I am sorry my real life experiences aren't jiving with your google searches!

I can't say whether these settlers are accurate for Romanians or not - I've never been there. But my feeling about that, is no, they aren't.

OK, you've never been to Romania, but you do feel authorized to make a judgment on the clothing of medieval Romanians (and Hungarians who lived in Romania)... I wonder what this is based on? Preconceived ideas? Google searches? This pretty much made the rest of your long reply a wash.

In fact, in just September, I was in Transylvania, traveling about. In several of the touristic places, I saw such outfits. The two cultures blended tons...
I am sorry that reality conflicts with your google searches..

With a little evilness I could argue that you try to provocate us Hungarians. I don't know about your ethnic background, but this sounds like you are either a Romanian nationalist or someone who has no clue about the matter. As Erdély is directly connected with Trianon (I mean, in hungarian heads) and Trianon is a trauma in Hungary, what you said is quite similar to asking a Japanese whether he ever heard of Hiroshima... Honestly, if you don't have any clue about the matter, you should simply stop talking about it...

I am an American one (german/swedish blood)... I have zero Magyar or Romanian blood.
I don't think you speak for Hungarians, having read your whole rant.
When I got to the above statement, and I realized that you have unresolved conflicts that are making you so obtuse.

The majority of the people of Transylvania have ALWAYS been Romanian. Though the Saxons ruled for a period, then the Magyars for a period, the overwhelming majority of people have always been Romanian, and for most of the time . Even Matthew Corvin is part Romanian.

Their roots are quite different - they could be hardly more different! Hungarian culture is asian (or eurasian if you prefer) whereas Romanian is european.

This is quite absurd. True, the magyar came from the Steppes, centuries ago... but they also, over the centuries, assimilated to European Culture. I have been to both countries, and Hungary is a lot closer, culturally, to W. Europe than Romania (aside from languages). So, what are you talking about? Hungary was part of the Austria-Hungary nation for crying out loud!
Romanian culture has Hungarian cultural influences within it... you denying it shows you to be some kind of nationalist at the least, and a racist at the worst... which is the cause of your rhetoric?

Lastly, I'd like to mention that transylvanian Saxons say almost the same things about Romanians as Hungarians say about them: they steal their history and culture and claim it to be ancient roman. Already two fractions that complain about the same thing... Just said that to prevend you are calling me a hungarian nationalist.
It's a pitty. When you started your Romania mod, I hoped there would be a mod about that nation that would be polite towards us and thus could be an alternative to Aranors (considering the leader anyways fantasy-stylish) mod. Seems like I get disappointed. Hell, one could get impression that Romanians don't have enough stuff that is unquestionably theirs that they have to borrow it from others or from 'fuzzy origin'...

Stole what from the Ancient Romans? The language? Their language is the closest to Latin... and the Romans settled many, many retired soldiers there... They certainly have a connection to Ancient Rome... Just as does Spain. And France.
Stole what from the Magyars? Some shirt designs? Sorry... but...

You answered my suspicion here, with your racist rant.

And, what in the world was not polite towards Magyars in my Romania Mod? Seriously? Not one thing.
You have just outed yourself as a racist that I will no longer take seriously, nor reply to. You just make Hungarians look bad with your close minded rants. I, fortunately, have known many Magyars and know that you do not speak for most. I know that, like most Europeans, Hungarians are good, kind people. Anyone who would freak out like you have, and bash a culture/race like you have, based on some knowledge you think you learned from your google searches... disgusting. I certainly won't let you, or google searches, form my feelings about your people.

I was saying, simply, that the Hungarian culture has had an impact on the Romanian culture...


And you respond with such utter racist trash... based on me saying that there are similarities in culture?

 

[Androrc the Orc]

Although it's not a historic source, it seems to be well recherched, so take a look at the europa universalis series. AFAIK in all its parts the culture of Trnasylvania is given as Hungarian.

AFAIK that is because the majority of the population of Transylvania only became Romanian at the the end of the 19th/start of the 20th centuries with immigration. Hungarians were initially predominant, but with the wars against the Ottoman Empire, many border regions of Austria got depopulated, and as such, to compensate for this, Germans were brought to settle the region. As new conflicts against the Ottomans occurred, the Siebenbürgen German population also dwindled.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Uh, yeah they do...
Ever heard of "Transylvania"?
I guess all those Hungarians living in Romania don't realize they have nothing in common with the Romanians. Odd how that works.
The guys outfit, it is seen in Romania as well... the bottom line is, hungarians have long be a part of the romanian country/culture.
Come on, a hungarian should know this stuff.

Ever heard of Transylvania?????
You r fcking kidding me????????
In my eye Erdely simply belongs to Hungary...

And yeah, it is seen in romania, on the hungarians living there. lol
That still means its hungarian, not romanian.
Come on, anyone who is not a moron should now this stuff.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I was (and maybe am) sooo pissed of, but then read your other 'comment' and it is ridiculous
Fortunatly you just made yourself to be seen like a complete idiot. Google searches. rofl
Cool3a2 gave u a totally correct reaction, some parts are even 'too correct' for me.
After your insults and arrogance I won't be able to write anything just closely as calm as he did.
Even now I still can't, or just don't want to. You decide

Don't even bother to react, i don't care anymore.
You ARE a moron indeed

 

[AbsintheRed]

The majority of the people of Transylvania have ALWAYS been Romanian. Though the Saxons ruled for a period, then the Magyars for a period, the overwhelming majority of people have always been Romanian, and for most of the time . Even your great Matthew Corvin is part Romanian.

Just one more thing. I can't figure out, where do you get these lies. Simply not true. There were always SOME romanians in Erdely, but only became majority later. Of course german and romanian culture was present, but hungarian culture dominated the whole territory until the most shameable trianon...

Read Androrc's comment, he is absolutely right. And he is an independent Brazil. Again, this means u don't even know what u r talking about

For your main and very bad idea. Every nearby culture affects each other, even neighboring countries after a few centuries. Romanians had a very different medieval style clothing, i dont care that u think in Transylvania it became the same (but of course this is not true either )
This still doesn't mean anything, just like saying that french culture appeared in germany. Of course it did, but they are totally separate cultures. So you basically said nothing, only trying to cover your idiotic comments with that...
That said, the current art is still the hungarian one, and do not fits for romania AT ALL!!!

And for Corvinus, u really think what only counts is the blood? Lol again.
Do you realize how many rulers were from completely different origins than the countries they ruled?
Btw if i remember correctly Matthias had only one romanian grandparent. He didn't even have more romanian blood in his veins than i do
He was hungarian. Totally and only hungarian...

 

[The Capo]

Jesus ing Christ guys! Chill out!

Look, this all started with an innocent enough remark that kochman would like to use these settlers for his Romanian civ. Which is certainly his prerogative. If he went to Romania and saw people dressed like this then he went to Romania and saw people dressed like this. Does it mean they are totally Romanian? Who knows. Does it mean they didn't have any Hungarian influence? They probably did in some ways, even subconciously.

The main issue here is what kochman wants to do with the units. He can use them for Romania just as much as he could download Bakuel's Nubian units and make those the Romanian flavored set. It isn't a big deal either way, and you guys shouldn't get that offended by this.

There is no reason to call cool or absinthe racists though, they are proud of their culture and from what I can derive here this matter seems to be an issue in their region/culture. Is that kochman's fault? Definitely not. Nobody HAS TO download Kochman's mods, nobody HAS TO use these as only Hungarian settlers. I even pointed out earlier that the females in the group don't have to be used as Hungarians either (which is true, although I did date a Hungarian chick in college for a little while and she was pretty hot... there really wasn't a reason to mention that, I just wanted to). You guys sound like childish idiots arguing about something as stupid as a ing unit in a videogame. I know none of you are, because I have spoken with all of you before (whether here on the forums or in PMs or whatever) and I know none of you are stupid. You are just getting caught up in one-upping eachother and its a little lame to be honest.

Kochman, go ahead and use the units for whatever you want.

Absinthe and Cool; does it really matter what he is using them for? I know you initially posted to try and help him get a more accurate depiction of Romania, or to at least prevent him from giving them the wrong units, but it should have ended there. I think you guys need to apologize to eachother so we can move on without these arguments. If you think he'll look stupid for putting Hungarians in his Romanian mod, then let him look stupid. That is his problem in the end isn't it?

The units look awesome though...

...I'll probably use them for my Bulgaria module...

 

[The Capo]

@ AbsintheRed; hey, BTW, I just reread all of your posts in case I was too harsh on you guys (and I don't really think I was), but could you do me a favor and point me in the direction of some Romanian medieval images? I have a module for them and I made a bunch of units for myself, but I had no idea what their medieval units may have looked like so I went with the ones attached to this post.

I am well aware they are probably completely wrong. But I want all of my civs to be flavored, so if you know where I can find some good images I'd really appreciate it. This goes for civs like Serbia (although I did find a few) and Bulgaria. When I was making my Europe module pack I had a lot of pressure to get it done quickly so I didn't spend too much time focusing on that aspect of it.

I also included my old Bulgarian set. I really think I could do much better than these, so hopefully you guys can help me out.

 

[Androrc the Orc]

I even pointed out earlier that the females in the group don't have to be used as Hungarians either (which is true, although I did date a Hungarian chick in college for a little while and she was pretty hot... there really wasn't a reason to mention that, I just wanted to)

Pure win

 

[cool3a2]

Only to clearify the issue once again: I never felt offended by kochman using this unit for his mod. Sure, he can do with it whatever he wants. I just shared my oppinion about it - that I think its inaccurate. I also said clearly that I might be wrong with my oppinion (as it is based on google search which is somewhat unreliable) - I was honest. You on the other side seem to believe you are a pro about this. You said you were only once in Romania and visited touristic attractions only. Did you realize that there could and mostly is a difference between what they show tourists and what live really is? And where did you learn about Transylvanias history? Books. Theory only. Influenced by the oppinion of the author. You are American. You have your right on an oppinion though, but as outsider you should be careful with claiming facts. I mean, I don't want to use false prejudices about Americans being arrogant. It's just that this is our history, not yours and we know it better then you. At least, we know about the emotions connected to Transylvania and Trianon. Something kochman obviously underestimated.

What me made freakin' out, were the following lines:

Ever heard of "Transylvania"?

and

hungarians have long be a part of the romanian country/culture.

I already explained why the first line can be understood offensive. Actually I also did why line two is. It is a fact that hungarian culture was never a subgroup of Romania nor was it vice versa. If you really claim that (and you actually contradict yourself later by saying Hungarians got western-europized which is the opposite of being a romanian culture), you must be a fool as in consequence you suggest that Hungarians are 'a group of Romanians'. But let's come back to what I said. In deed, I said that both influenced each other. And again: Bakuels worker art might suit for your mod (as it does for mine). I also wanted to say that I have the impression (from reading your posts) that your mod develops in a direction that will be inpolite towards us. Don't know if you already added the unit or not. Even if you have, I wouldn't call it necessarily inpolite. It would just have lost seriousness, I'd say (but that's again based on my oppinion on whether the settlers is accurate for Romania and can be seen differently again). The reason why I would start seeing your mod in an inpolite light, is your reasoning for adding these units and what you said here about hungarian culture. So, in conclusion your mod was not inpolite till yet, but it could become... And that would disappoint me.

Stole what from the Ancient Romans? The language? Their language is the closest to Latin... and the Romans settled many, many retired soldiers there... They certainly have a connection to Ancient Rome... Just as does Spain. And France.

This shows pretty well how cursorily you were when reading my posts. I never said that anyomne ever stole anything from the ancient Romans. I said that Transylvanian Saxons complain about Romanians that they (the Romanians) claim what is actually saxon is ancient roman. So, according to the Saxons, they 'steal' from Saxons, not from Romans.

Finally, show me the lines where I said racist things before claiming I am a nazi please. If you do that once again without giving reasons, I think I won't have any other chance than telling the moderators that I got flamed. And they don't like things like that.

I think you guys need to apologize to eachother

Nope, The Capo. I like you very much, bro, but I seriously don't see what I should appologize for. I even tried to point him on, that he needs to be careful with his statements (that are obviously of limited backround knowledge as what he said about the history of Transylvania shows) as this is a sensitive topic as he should have known if he is really familiar with the situation there. So, I actually tried to avoid that it gets that harsh.

EDIT: In one point The Capo is right: this thread is about Zervers settler unit, not about politics. And as I made my point clear now (hopefully even for those who tend to pay too less time for reading my statements and then getting them wrong), I consider this issue discussed for now. I don't plan to continue it.

 

[kochman]

He was hungarian. Totally and only hungarian...

First you agree that he had Romanian blood, and then this. Tell me this type of hypernationalism isn't smacking of racism?!

In my eye Erdely simply belongs to Hungary...

First of all, its Transylvania. Your nation was the landlords for a while, now you aren't. What does that effect you? In this day? How does this effect your life? How does it effect your nation? Do you really want this land, that is crawling with Romanians!?!!!? Those terrible awful Romanians!!??!?
I am really shocked by the bitterness of the handful of Hungarians who have posted such crap on this board. A poor representation of your people, at the minimum.

In America, we have a large Mexican community. In places like Texas, there has been much blending of the two cultures... forming a texmex culture. If an american reacted about that like you have about a blending of Romanian/Hungarian culture, it would be sad.

@Capo, I agree with most of what you said, completely. I do take issue with you saying that cool32a didn't say anything racist (as he was the only one I accused of it), I think that paragraph was pretty bad, and were I a Romanian, I know I would have been offended. This is the part in question:

Hell, one could get impression that Romanians don't have enough stuff that is unquestionably theirs that they have to borrow it from others or from 'fuzzy origin'...

I mean, that was really over the line.

I am using them in the Romanian mod, once I get the time to implement it. The Hungarians could do two things about this... 1, be proud that their culture has been strong enough to heavily influence another country's culture... or 2, freak out and look like lunatics about it. Why choose 2?

My wife, for the record, is part Hungarian and part Romanian, and from Transylvania. This is very common in Transylvania... sorry to upset you guys with it! Here family still lives in Romania, and I have been there for months and months. I have been to Hungary repeatedly too (though mainly only to Budapest). Not exactly a casual one time tourist.
Perhaps I will post some photos of Szekelys in Sibui (aka Hermannstadt), just to freak you out. Or her Hungarian mother with her Romanian father! Yikes!
Anyhow, I let her see some of this twaddle you have posted, and she was 1, offended (well, 1/2 offended, ), and 2, laughing at how crazy you seem to an outside observer.

RELAX GUYS. National/cultural pride is cool... Ubernationalism is pretty weird and doesn't lead to good things.

I do commend you for your outstanding English language skills though.

 

[kochman]

AFAIK that is because the majority of the population of Transylvania only became Romanian at the the end of the 19th/start of the 20th centuries with immigration. Hungarians were initially predominant, but with the wars against the Ottoman Empire, many border regions of Austria got depopulated, and as such, to compensate for this, Germans were brought to settle the region. As new conflicts against the Ottomans occurred, the Siebenbürgen German population also dwindled.

The Germans left mianly after WWII... or better put, were deported due to the USSR, WW2, etc.

Transylvania was once the nucleus of the Kingdom of Dacia (82 BC–106 AD). In 106 AD the Roman Empire conquered the territory and after that its wealth was systematically exploited. After the Roman legions withdrew in 271 AD, it was overrun by a succession of tribes, which subjected it to various influences. During this time areas of it were under the control of the Visigoths, Huns, Gepids, Avars and Bulgars. Thereafter the Romanized Dacian inhabitants either moved into the mountains and preserved their culture or migrated southward. It is likely that elements of the mixed Daco–Roman population held out in Transylvania. There is an ongoing scholarly debate over the population of Transylvania before the Hungarian conquest (see Origin of the Romanians).

 

[cool3a2]

Szekelys in Sibui (aka Hermannstadt), just to freak you out.

Why should we freak out because of this? Székelys are hungarians - or as some of them say Hungarians are Székelys...

First of all, its Transylvania. Your nation was the landlords for a while, now you aren't. What does that effect you? In this day? How does this effect your life? How does it effect your nation? Do you really want this land, that is crawling with Romanians!?!!!? Those terrible awful Romanians!!??!?
I am really shocked by the bitterness of the handful of Hungarians who have posted such crap on this board. A poor representation of your people, at the minimum.

Although this has nothing to do with the settler I'll tell you why. Trianon was a historic mistake (that means, in the form it was done). It was done to fulfill the promises of the Entente towards its allies, but ignored completely the ethnic situation. That might have been loyal towards their allies, but nearsighted and morally wrong. Not enough, this mistake still affects the Hungarians there (learning hungarian and hungarian history etc). Autonomy would be the best and fairest way to reflect the cultural mixing of Transylvania. But even if we manage to get it, who guarantees that after 20 years or so nobody comes and takes it back? There even was a time when there was an autonomous region, but they withdraw that status. The only solution I see is returning the Széklersland, which is inhabited by hungarians mostly and make it an autonomous region within Hungary, then make the rest of Transylvania autonomous as well within Romania. This would be a status quo as if any side thinks abot taking back the autonomy, he has to calculate with the same from the other side as reaction. So, I hope you see, it is not of imperialistic hunger to take land, it is about people. Also, if Trianon was a mistake and if it still affects us, why shouldn't we correct it? I really don't think Trianon is a dogma. Actually, I don't see any other way to get peace there then by correcting the borders.

Hell, one could get impression that Romanians don't have enough stuff that is unquestionably theirs that they have to borrow it from others or from 'fuzzy origin'...

If that's the line you found insulting, take a closer look at it. I said "one could get the impression". An impression must not be the truth. It simply means 'it looks like'. Still, my opinion remains: these settlers don't really fit to Romania. At least, there would be other clothing that would be unquestionably and originally romanian - independent from mixing. Actually, I am even not sure if Romanians would feel insulted when adding these units as they could get the impression that one claims romanian is part of hungarian culture... Or something similar. So, why don't you simply request unquestionably romanian units? Bakuel for example could be your man.

Just one last thing: before you blame the hungarian side too much for being 'bad loosers' or such, keep in mind that...
a) Hungarians live there since 1000 years. You can't consider them guests. They are at home there just as Romanians are. So don't wonder if they'd like to use there language as if they would be in Hungary, for example.
b) the romanian continuity theory is nothing more then a theory. Although your girlfriend may say something else. She might be influenced by the romanian part of her family overly. Sure, I can't know this and I won't assert something about her. But it wouldn't be too strange on the other side as Romanians tend to be very strict on this theory. There seems to be a romanian historian who even wrote a (critical) book of this habit. I think his name is Lucian Boia. I have his book, but didn't have the time to read it. You might search after it if you like. To come back on transylvanian history: you might do your own searchs to get an alternative point of view. Wikipedia has a german page that compares the continuity theory with the migration theory - it might be available in english, too. It contains some of the hawks of the romanian opinion (good points in my view).
c) Some Romanians tend to be quite rude as well. You might have heard about Csángós before. Those are originally Hungarians, but a lot of them are in danger to get assimilated. Some of them even say they are Romanians although they still speak no other language then Hungarian. They simply have been taught to be Romanians. Now, there are Romanians claiming that Csángós always were Romanian people - which is simply not true. Also, Ceauşescu tried to solve the problems by resettling Hungarians to regions in Romania outside Transylvania and bringing Romanians to Transylvania. Just to drop the count of Hungarians there. That also influenced the population in Transylvania. So, modern data about population does not mirror the population of 100 years ago or even earlier. And even your own text you have posted says, that there is a debate about the population of Transylvania (which means that there is no clear answer to this yet).
d) Székelys play an important role for Hungary. There is a legend that Székelys were Huns that remained in europe after Attilas empire disappeared. Later they called for reinforcements from their asian bothers. Those reinforcements were the Magyars. That's why some of the Székelys say that Hungarians are also Székelys, I think. This legend might have a true core or it doesn't. We don't know. The point is, that in hungarian folklore they are connected with the 'genesis' of the hungarians. Also, there were a plenty of good Székelys leading Transylvania and fighting for hungarian independence that played an important role in making sure that the hungarian culture survives despite the country was occupied. So, don't await we give these people up... As they didn't give us up before.

 

[The Capo]

You guys are ridiculous. Why don't you just put up pictures of your next to a ruler so we can end this?

What is the point of keeping this up?

 

[kochman]

double post

 

[kochman]

double post

 

[kochman]

I am glad you have toned it down. I appreciate that. I always enjoy a good debate. 2 quick points before I get rambling away.
*Wife... not girlfriend. Its different.
*Romanian historians... I take them with a grain of salt on this matter, just as I do Hungarian historians (amateur or professional).

My point of posting that there was still debate amongst historians was to show that everyone who is going crazy, calling me moron, etc... they are basing it all on their own ideas and beliefs, because it is an unsettled issue (and probably can't be settled, realistically).

I don't doubt that people have move back and forth. I just don't understand why Hungarians seem to take it as an insult that they are a part of Romanian culture. If anything, that is pretty cool. I mean, the Romanian culture hasn't had much impact in Hungary (none that I saw).

I also think that saying a people are "in danger of assimilating" to the country they live it... that's odd. I don't see any danger in it at all. If I moved back to Italy, for example, and was going to stay there... I sure as hell would assimilate. This is how we get along in the world. Not by clinging to lost lands and perceived wrongs.

Anyhow, Transylvania is Romanian now, and it has had a mixed cultural background for a long time. It has been ruled by Romanians, Hungarians, Teutons, Dacians (pre-Romanians), etc... I can't understand how Transylvania being Romanian effects you, other than emotionally.

Not enough, this mistake still affects the Hungarians there (learning hungarian and hungarian history etc).

Are they restricted from learning it on their own? I doubt it. You can maintain your culture/history all you want. For example, I am of Swedish and German heritage, so I have done a lot of studying of the places, history, etc and visiting and living there.
You can also just move out if you don't like to assimilate.

Autonomy would be the best and fairest way to reflect the cultural mixing of Transylvania.

Why? Because you say so, as a hungarian? What percentage of Transylvania wants this? I wasn't aware of any such movement amongst the people in Transylvania.

the only solution I see is returning the Széklersland, which is inhabited by hungarians mostly and make it an autonomous region within Hungary, then make the rest of Transylvania autonomous as well within Romania.

Solution? To what? I don't see a problem. A solution implies there is a problem. What is the problem? Some hurt feelings? So, rip away 1/3 of Romania because some hungarians want some other solution? I mean, you can't be in the EU if there are border unresolved disputes (see Croatia). Obviously, this is not the case between the Romanian and Hungarian governments. So, if your government is not going to take any action on the issue, don't you think it might be time to let it go in your heart? I guess the government has given up on the Székelys. It would be like Germany asking Poland for Prussia back, or Gdansk.

if Trianon was a mistake and if it still affects us, why shouldn't we correct it?

I still don't see how it effects you. You mentioned the study of hungarian culture/language, which is surely not infringed upon. Do you think this is the first time such a land situation has been resolved like this? I don't hear the Germans complaining about losing Alsace-Lorraine anymore. I just don't clearly see how it is effecting you.

And, if, as your arguments seem to dictate, language defines culture (to me, blood is much more important in the short term), the Transylvania is overwhelmingly Romanian.

In closing, using something from the Hungarian part of Romanian history does not discredit Hungary. If anything, it adds to the prestige of the Hungarian culture and people. Its a compliment. Cultures tend to take the good stuff from other cultures, not the bad. So, if the Romanians, many of whom have Hungarian blood, see good things in and from your culture and people, isn't this a good thing? Does it mean they should lose their land?


@ the Capo... now that it is a intellectual debate, rather than a constant attack, I have no problem with what is happening.
I do think that people should, instead of lashing out, imagine that the person they are talking to were right next to them. I am not always good at this myself. But, I do know, if I had said anything about Hungary and its people like what was said about Romania(ns), these guys would clearly have freaked out!

 

[The Capo]

@ the Capo... now that it is a intellectual debate, rather than a constant attack, I have no problem with what is happening.
I do think that people should, instead of lashing out, imagine that the person they are talking to were right next to them. I am not always good at this myself. But, I do know, if I had said anything about Hungary and its people like what was said about Romania(ns), these guys would clearly have freaked out!

That's entirely the case, but ultimately you are both contributing to a thread about a unit turning into a pissing match over who knows more about Transylvania. Its nice to see it has toned down, but the fact remains; this is not the proper venue for this discussion. Glad to see you boys playing nice though.