—I hate what Fox News has done to almost everyone in my family

[Manfred Belheim]

No. If you take a bunch of people, and split it by 2 methods:

1. By eye, split them by perceived races
2. By genetics, do a SNP chip like 23andme or whatever, and then cluster the group by the results

You will get 2 groupings of the people, and these groupings are not likely to agree very much.

I suppose this will be why white couples frequently have black or "asian" children then. No genetic component at all, just what diet they have as babies or something.

 

[red_elk]

Well, congratulations, you're a scientific racist and you believe in crackpot nonsense from the 19th century. May you have joy of it.

No, 20-fold difference in melanoma prevalence is not crackpot nonsense from 19-th century.

"Melanoma is far more common among Caucasians than African–Americans (AA), with incidence rates of 33.0 per 100,000 men and 20.2 per 100,000 women among Caucasians compared with 1.2 per 100,000 men and 1.0 per 100,000 women among AAs."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5403065/

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I think the problem in these threads is that if you say anything remotely along the lines of "race is a real thing", then you'll just be uncharitably subscribed to all the most backwards and obviously incorrect statements and opinions about race from 150 years ago. Rather than just, you know, recognising that there are obvious actual genetic differences between disparate groups of people, and that "race" is as good a label as any to apply to this phenomenon. (Although quite why there's always this fervent denial of links between genetics and observable physical characteristics I've never quite got my head around, given how clearly apparent this is)

It's kind of like, if you claim to believe in the existence of different chemical elements, being mocked for believing that everything is made up of different combinations of Air, Earth, Water and Fire.

 

[Lexicus]

I suppose this will be why white couples frequently have black or "asian" children then. No genetic component at all, just what diet they have as babies or something.

Fascinating how the Irish evolved from being non-white to being white in less than 100 years. I guess they must have all been exposed to some weird radiation to make their genes change so quickly.

Rather than just, you know, recognising that there are obvious actual genetic differences between disparate groups of people, and that "race" is as good a label as any to apply to this phenomenon.

rip haplogroups

It's kind of like, if you claim to believe in the existence of different chemical elements, being mocked for believing that everything is made up of different combinations of Air, Earth, Water and Fire.

Well, you're now vying with Hehehe for the title of dumbest post in this thread. I hope that makes you happy.

 

[Peuri]

What isn't clear is what you actually mean by "parading these race differences." That is euphemistic language that doesn't appear to actually mean anything concrete.

That indeed is unclear. What I meant was "disparities" instead of "differences". Same word in my barbarian native language. And by that I mean the constant barrage of percentages of social phenomenon, without deeper analysis as to why the disparity exists, or what it even means.

I'm in favor of affirmative action and strong antidiscrimination laws. I'm also, crucially, in favor of public, universal provision of goods like housing. Those are imo the two best methods for attacking racial disparities. If you don't agree with them then you can type "racism is bad" 1,000 times and it won't matter: you need to come up with some actual policy that will reduce racial disparities before, you know, 10,000 years have passed which is about how long it will take if we go the "colorblind" route.

I agree with what you said. The state should fullfill it's citizens' basic needs. But that is an universalist policy, not an identitarian one, which I oppose.

The only thing I'm unsure is affirmative action, because it places students that maybe don't have enough learned skill in settings that can overwhealm them, and there is a danger or defining down excellence. This defining down of excellence is happening anyway in education though, so what amount could AA have, I have no idea. I would rather support the primary and high school level with more resources to help students with hardship to reach those places of higher education without quotas. I understand that there is a sort of long term view in affirmative action of changing self-perceptions of racialized peoples to what is possible for them in terms of providing role models, which is an admirable idea and creating more affluent homes for these people, so that later generations can reach the positions of higher education without affirmative action. But still I would rather sidestep the inclusion on race-based policy for an universalist one, because race-based policies keep race alive socially.

What I'm dead-set against is racial essentialism or race-realism from the left. I think "identity politics" often shades into this and part of it is the social media dynamics that encourage simple, clear ideas rather than nuance or high-level analysis. It is even worse when neoliberals co-opt this kind of language to imply that left politics are somehow inherently racist (we saw this in 2016 with the "democratic socialism will just benefit white people" and "Wall St didn't gun down unarmed young black men" and I've no doubt we'll be seeing it again starting in a few months) or that the politics of class and race are somehow in tension.

Hallelujah! Maybe God isn't dead after all.

 

[Lexicus]

The only thing I'm unsure is affirmative action, because it places students that maybe don't have enough skill in settings that can overwhealm them, and there is a danger or defining down excellence. This defining down of excellence is happening anyway in education though, so what amount could AA have, I have no idea.

Affirmative action doesn't lower admissions or hiring standards.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I think the problem in these threads is that if you say anything remotely along the lines of "race is a real thing", then you'll just be uncharitably subscribed to all the most backwards and obviously incorrect statements and opinions about race from 150 years ago.

Fascinating how the Irish evolved from being non-white to being white in less than 100 years. I guess they must have all been exposed to some weird radiation to make their genes change so quickly.

Wahey and there it is!

Maybe point to anyone on CFC who has ever made any claim about the Irish not being white, otherwise maybe stop banging on about this as if it were 1875 or something.

 

[El_Machinae]

On the contrary, racism causes race. Race exists no more than noble blood exists.

I appreciate the reframing, it's valuable. I'd quibble, because I think it's factually wrong, but my quibble doesn't matter. It's a sentence that's valuable.


Likewise, microaggressions (as a category) exist because people believe racism exists.

 

[red_elk]

I think the problem in these threads is that if you say anything remotely along the lines of "race is a real thing", then you'll just be uncharitably subscribed to all the most backwards and obviously incorrect statements and opinions about race from 150 years ago.

I'm afraid somebody says there is biological difference between men and women, and all the hell breaks loose.

 

[Lexicus]

So you believe that 23andme is a hoax?

I want to comment on this briefly because it demonstrates so well the ignorance of people claiming that race is a biological reality. Real geneticists are actually not big fans of these commercial DNA tests like 23andme for precisely the reason that they simplify the picture of ancestry and genetics in a way that makes clear division between human populations seem real and sensible.

Maybe point to anyone on CFC who has ever made any claim about the Irish not being white, otherwise maybe stop banging on about this as if it were 1875 or something.

Yeah I mean it's not like the history of racial ideas has anything to tell us about the nature of racial ideas.
Just curious though, what about Italians? When exactly did they evolve the white genes?

 

[Berzerker]

Affirmative action doesn't lower admissions or hiring standards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_quota

 

[red_elk]

Yeah I mean it's not like the history of racial ideas has anything to tell us about the nature of racial ideas.
Just curious though, what about Italians? When exactly did they evolve the white genes?

US racists may consider only WASPs as whites, who cares? They are wrong.
Claiming that there are no differences between European and African people at all is a different story. It's denying reality.

 

[Berzerker]

scientific racism isn't a belief that race exists, its a belief in racial inferiority/superiority

edit: and a malicious one, a 'justification' for mistreatment.

Or is it racist to say 'white men cant jump'?

 

[rah]

US racists may consider only WASPs as whites, who cares? They are wrong.
Claiming that there are no differences between European and African people at all is a different story. It's denying reality.

I've always considered it a reality myself just by appearance, but I think Lex is beginning to make me doubt it. There is considerable overlap no matter where we look. Just what is Italian? Just what is black these days? 1/8 1/32 or what. Is E Warren an Indian? So while I will still believe that people are biologically different does that mean that they're a different race. I'm starting to doubt that (thx Lex) So the real issue is as long as we don't let any of these perceived differences affect how we treat others, we should be ok. But please forgive me if I look at a person with considerable darker skin than mine and still think black. habit is hard to break.

 

[red_elk]

But please forgive me if I look at a person with considerable darker skin than mine and still think black. habit is hard to break.

You can look at Italian and think "Italian". You can look at me and think "Russian". You can look at Black or Asian and think "Black" or "Asian". What's wrong with that? We are different, but equal in rights.
Must be equal. Denying the difference won't help to stop discrimination.

 

[rah]

If I'm going to treat everyone equal, I want to stop seeing those differences as differences. That's the only way to stop discrimination.

 

[H4run]

You can look at Italian and think "Italian". You can look at me and think "Russian". You can look at Black or Asian and think "Black" or "Asian".

This is crazy, what Italian think and look in general? and how the Italian line of thought that is distinguishable than Russian?

How Asian think and look actually? are Turk Asian? are Malaysian Asian? are Korean Asian? How do they think and look in particular?

As a race what similarity that North and South Korean shared in their world view, philosophy and line of thought? are they similar to Japan and China?

This is all ridiculous. Race for most of the time refer to common language and nationality (culture), race being refer to physical factor were started during 17th century and later on popularized by Nazi to constructs or define Aryan identity.

 

[Lexicus]

I've always considered it a reality myself just by appearance, but I think Lex is beginning to make me doubt it. There is considerable overlap no matter where we look. Just what is Italian? Just what is black these days? 1/8 1/32 or what. Is E Warren an Indian? So while I will still believe that people are biologically different does that mean that they're a different race. I'm starting to doubt that (thx Lex) So the real issue is as long as we don't let any of these perceived differences affect how we treat others, we should be ok.

This is more or less exactly right. We have genetic differentiation in humans. That much is obvious. This genetic differentiation makes some people look different from one another. So far so good. Where things start to fall apart is when we assume that genetic differentiation corresponds usefully with the folk categories of race. Imo the mere fact that the folk categories have changed so much over time (we don't see people dividing Europeans up by race much anymore, but that was an extremely popular area of "racial science" 100 years ago) demonstrates that race itself is a purely social category, but additionally modern genetics has completely disproved the notion that "races" correspond to different branches on the human evolutionary tree. Humans show a high degree of genetic homogeneity compared to virtually any other species and the "racial" differences in appearance have been shown to be relatively recent superficial adaptations to the environment e.g. the level of sunlight. There are 'branches' of a sort in the evolutionary tree but they are called haplogroups, map imperfectly to notions of race, and there is additionally plenty of cross-pollination between them.

But please forgive me if I look at a person with considerable darker skin than mine and still think black. habit is hard to break.

Imo there's nothing wrong with this. Race is a sociologically important category, just not a biologically important one. It's just, when I say "black people" I mean "people deemed by society to be 'black'", I don't mean that there is an actual biological group of people called "black people."

This is all ridiculous. Race for most of the time refer to common language and nationality (culture), race being refer to physical factor were started during 17th century and later on popularized by Nazi to constructs or define Aryan identity.

The sad thing is that so many people seem to have learned nothing from the historical experience with Nazism.

 

[Senethro]

Wahey and there it is!

Maybe point to anyone on CFC who has ever made any claim about the Irish not being white, otherwise maybe stop banging on about this as if it were 1875 or something.

Whether your ideas about race are 50 years out of date or 75 years out of date, they're still wrong. Being a little less wrong than some obviously stupid guy doesn't make you right.

Your previous input on this subject has been minimal and extremely wrong.

Rather than just, you know, recognising that there are obvious actual genetic differences between disparate groups of people, and that "race" is as good a label as any to apply to this phenomenon.

This is wrong! Its just literally not true! You really are talking about Fire and Earth instead of Technetium and Lanthanum.

You once tried to make a joke of something obviously stupid affecting skin colour, (soil pH) but that was actually true! You just give the impression of being really ignorant about any facts in this area.

 

[H4run]

take simple example, how Indonesian think? a nation that consist of 700 languages and more than 300 different cultures and 17000 island, they are even too huge and diversed to be categorize a single race, not to mention if they are reduced to be simply Asian, lol, packed together with China, South Korean, North Korean, Singapore, Thailand like sardinise hahaha

It is a social construct that derived from the emerging of nation-state.