“The Feminist”

[Manfred Belheim]

@MaryKB I'm not saying anyone is actively planning to bed you, but you said "never think of her that way again". There's a large middle ground between those two extremes and I think you're in denial if you don't think most heterosexual men will be this middle ground somewhere. And I think you're wrong to think it's a problem, or indicates a lack of respect, if they are.

Think of this: if your boss is a woman, would you be hoping she'd call you into her office to have sex with her?

If I find her attractive I don't see why I wouldn't have a little daydream about that happening. That wouldn't mean I would then refuse to work under her though (no pun intended) or have any problem doing so.

 

[Narz]

I think it's possible to view someone as an equal and respect them, whilst at the same time as someone you might quite like to screw. Not only possible, but I'd guess actually rather common when it comes to male-female friendships.

No one is my equal, I'm not looking for an equal, I'm looking for a compliment, someone who sees my strengths and weaknesses on full display and accepts them and me (and viceyversey)

 

[MaryKB]

@MaryKB I'm not saying anyone is actively planning to bed you, but you said "never think of her that way again". There's a large middle ground between those two extremes and I think you're in denial if you don't think most heterosexual men will be this middle ground somewhere. And I think you're wrong to think it's a problem, or indicates a lack of respect, if they are.

I mean seriously think that way, and I do feel there's a huge difference. I see men bantering between their friends how much they're going to "kick each other's ***", but that doesn't mean you're really going to beat them up, right? Some guys that I have a playful relationship I feel is similar, but that's all it is. But if someone really was "friends" with me and is thinking one day he's going to have sex with me, that's a problem.

And we really can tell. And that's why guys like him from the story have such unfulfilling relationships with women, because his "friends" know what he wants. They're just also nice people (this is something men often seem to mistake for sexual desire, for some strange reason I can never figure out)

What I mean about "never think of her that way again" is someone you're trying to have a non-sexual relationship with. Think of her as like how you would your guy friends: someone whom you keep company with because you love doing things with them, and sharing with them, and you're there to support each other. You're not constantly thinking "Is today the day we're finally going to shack up?"

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Well if you're talking about actively planning and pursuing then that's different. But that's just as bad for the man anyway to be continually barking up an unreceptive tree (to butcher a few metaphors). But I can't see anything wrong with having a little fantasy and sexual desire going on in your head. Certainly doesn't indicate any lack of respect in my eyes. Seems pretty normal and natural. If he's not actually acting on it then you probably can't tell I would say.

 

[Zardnaar]

I never said having a sexual interest is a problem, that's your own thought and not mine.

What I say is that having a sexual interest in someone you're in a non-sexual relationship with is harmful to the woman and to your relationship with her. It affects how you think about her, and ultimately how you respect her.

Like imagine if you're a carnivore and animals could talk. Say you're "friends" with a type of animal you eat. If you think of how you one day might want to eat your friend, do you really think you could view them as an equal to yourself? You're fooling yourself.

And please don't say it's because that's what women want, I can assure you that's a lie. That's what you want.

@Manfred Belheim this whole site is basically just banter, and I know we're just joking with each other. I don't believe any of the men I talk to here hold out any real hope that I'd ever have sex with them, we're just having fun. And you can compliment someone without thinking it's going to lead to sex: I very often tell my girlfriends how much I love their new hair, or clothes, etc. And my friends do the same for me, I got quite a lot of compliments last weekend on my new nails for example. I often talk to men I know about how amazing I think they look, maybe with a new suit or after losing some weight, and so on (and I mean it honestly)

I haven't had a lot of male friends IRL. I have my one coworker who I've known for almost ten years, but while we talk and he helps me with things, I'm sure he doesn't have a sexual interest. I've never gotten that vibe from him, and at my company he's one of the few guys who really treats me with full respect for my abilities. I've also known guys who got angry with me when I wasn't sexually interested in them, and I find it tends to get worse the longer you've been "friends" with one of these guys.

I don't believe every man is unable to control himself like Farm Boy thinks, I believe many men really do respect women and don't view all of us as hopeful/potential mates.

Think of this: if your boss is a woman, would you be hoping she'd call you into her office to have sex with her? Now things get really bad for women when the man has more power (see: Harvey Weinstein, etc)

Male PoV it can be really hard to know when a women likes you. We're not good at picking up on vibes and women don't tend to be to verbal about it. I've never picked someone up in a bar for example. I've had female friends and relations complain about it as well (males lack of perception).

If she's being really obvious flirting with you you might pick up on that. I was chasing my wife for a few weeks a long time ago but had no idea how she felt until she made the moves. I just hung out with her and tried my abyssmal best. She was more a friend of a friend at the time.

Before that it was friend into girl friend. Wasn't planned just kinda happened. When you both like each other at a basic level it's not a huge leap to something else.

All my early girlfriends were also set ups from my female friends. "So and so likes you" really? Made dating easy I suppose. "You like me"? Yeah. These American shows with dating are completely foreign lol. Dating for me was mostly friend into girlfriend or friends of friends.

 

[MaryKB]

Well if you're talking about actively planning and pursuing then that's different. But that's just as bad for the man anyway to be continually barking up an unreceptive tree (to butcher a few metaphors). But I can't see anything wrong with having a little fantasy and sexual desire going on in your head. Certainly doesn't indicate any lack of respect in my eyes. Seems pretty normal and natural. If he's not actually acting on it then you probably can't tell I would say.

Yeah, I don't mean like some occasional weird daydream. I mean a persistent and real hope you're at some point going to be in a relationship, regularly thinking "is today the day?" and actively looking for signs (and trying to make "signs" happen) I don't feel you even have to openly pursue her to be a bad thing, even just pursuing her in your own mind reduces her from a person to a target, and that's going to affect your relationship.

 

[Farm Boy]

Daydreams aren't weird. Potential partners are not reductive sub-person "targets" unless the interaction with desire is already dysfunctional.

 

[Rashiminos]

Think of this: if your boss is a woman, would you be hoping she'd call you into her office to have sex with her? Now things get really bad for women when the man has more power (see: Harvey Weinstein, etc)

Is this a theoretical discussion or story time?

There are definite downsides if the workplace relationship goes sideways, but that doesn't mean there are no upsides. Some workplace rules were created with the intention of avoiding the mixture of business and pleasure.

 

[Lexicus]

I think that for a female boss to have sex with an employee would be an abuse of power...

 

[bernie14]

@MaryKB
.....That wouldn't mean I would then refuse to work under her though (no pun intended) or have any problem doing so.

if she's on top, hopefully she's doing some of the work

 

[Zardnaar]

I think that for a female boss to have sex with an employee would be an abuse of power...

Depends on the situation. Problem with work related romances is when they go sideways.

 

[Rashiminos]

Sexual impropiety usually toes the line of business ethics. Everyone else doesn't want to deal with the drama of the office couple either being all over each other or having a falling out because it's Thursday.

Not necessarily abuse of power as much as a distraction. One solution is for one of the pair to no longer have a direct subordinate relation to the other.

Spoiler :

Sexually frustrated boss presents its own problems

 

[Zardnaar]

Sexual impropiety usually toes the line of business ethics. Everyone else doesn't want to deal with the drama of the office couple either being all over each other or having a falling out because it's Thursday.

Not necessarily abuse of power as much as a distraction. One solution is for one of the pair to no longer have a direct subordinate relation to the other.

Spoiler :

Sexually frustrated boss presents its own problems

That to, it's why a lot of places are banning it. My sister's ex husband and current were both workplace romances. Over 22 years though. Shrugs.

 

[MaryKB]

I think that for a female boss to have sex with an employee would be an abuse of power...

My point was more your expectations as an employee. If your boss calls you in to her office, are you going to be thinking she's going to want to have sex?

I think it is a problem with male thinking in general, and that's why you see so many instances of men abusing their power over women. And that I think really brings things back a lot, because that's the problem I'm talking about. These men view women as people to have sex with, so when they can use leverage to make that happen, they do - and it's extremely rampant. At least when women have more power (like a female boss), he doesn't have that kind of leverage to use against her. But the question is, if he could, would he?

This all goes back to men thinking that women are things to have sex with. They're not really thinking of us as equal people. They're not thinking about our talents, or what we're able to contribute, they're mostly thinking about how attractive we are. That's why I feel the solution is to accept that you're not going to have sex with 99.9999% of women in the world, and unless there's a real reason for it to go there then doing entertain that idea. Move past your lower instincts and view us as equals.

I'm really disappointed at how much push back I'm getting over this, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised (as usual lol)

 

[Rashiminos]

That to, it's why a lot of places are banning it. My sister's ex husband and current were both workplace romances. Over 22 years though. Shrugs.

Looks like a pattern to me

 

[Zardnaar]

It's because you take extreme positions all of the time.

You're basically painting my sister as an idiot/useless and she has a great husband and is one of the toughest women I know.

 

[Farm Boy]

I'm really disappointed at how much push back I'm getting over this, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised (as usual lol)

You're getting pushback on your take of "our lower instincts" because I think that take is a functionally decent path to internalize and then walk if you want to wind up where this piece of fiction goes.

 

[Zardnaar]

Looks like a pattern to me

She has a type. She doesn't like the typical stereotypical guy. Both were engineers.

She's very ruthless when it comes to men. Doesn't take a lot for her to put you in the idiot camp. Last time she was single guys were asking me to put in a good word for them, she thought they were idiots and already had who she wanted picked out.

My niece is awesome, her husband's great and her and her ex helped raise me so she's had 3 relationships since 87. I've had 2 in 20 years she was my role model lol.

 

[Rashiminos]

This all goes back to men thinking that women are things to have sex with. They're not really thinking of us as equal people. They're not thinking about our talents, or what we're able to contribute, they're mostly thinking about how attractive we are.

In the male way of thinking, these are not mutually exclusive concepts. It's a bit different with women because you typically have a surfeit of suitors.

 

[MaryKB]

I'm only getting pushback from the usuals who need to listen the most, so that's comforting at least

This is why we have so many problems, men refusing to acknowledge and address their attitudes.