1.6 feedback

[Slvynn]

They did? There's no mention of that in the books that I remember.
I don't object to the idea in principle.... but the gameplay effect is to make early game offshore transportation/colonization incredibly risky - especially for the AI. Is that really what we want?

What if the AI loses its settlers in a dash for the polar region? Then that faction is kinda out of the game.

In Lynch movie, they are.
They also portrayed with spears/ duo-dents (like picture which koma wanted to cut in art thread)
Game already have content from Emperror and etc. It can be not spears, just yes, idea of UU barbarian units.

Another approach can be like in fhh - barbs and clan of embers, wehre our clan -is freeman faction. So they start in peace with arrakis.

CKF are too powerfull, and yes, 100% agree on settlers and harm to aI

 

[Ahriman]

I don't mind having more interestnig barbarian units, but I don't think they should be desert units, because of the threat to scout thopters and the like.

Making Fremen at peace with barbarians would obviate the need for thumper promotion things; the worms just wouldn't attack them (though if at peace, worms also wouldn't pillage their harvesters, unless this is done in python to destroy the rather than with the pillage command - and I think we do want Fremen harvesters to still get pillaged - and maybe Fremen harvesters should have a different graphic, not the big crawlers at all).

CKF are too powerfull

CKF = ???

 

[Deliverator]

I figured that out, CKF=Crysknife Fighter, I think Slvynn is agreeing that the Crysknife Fighter is too powerful a unit for the Barbarians.

 

[Slvynn]

Yep, confirmed, CKF (Crysknife Fighter) is too powerfull, and some barb uu will be better.

 

[Ahriman]

I don't think the Crysknife Fighter is too powerful for Fremen; I think it suits them really well in their raider capacity. It isn't strong enough to take cities defended by infantry, except in really huge hordes, but it can to a great job of an early pillage war.

But yeah, too powerful for barbs to be spawning in the early game.

 

[Slvynn]

I don't think the Crysknife Fighter is too powerful for Fremen; I think it suits them really well in their raider capacity. It isn't strong enough to take cities defended by infantry, except in really huge hordes, but it can to a great job of an early pillage war.

But yeah, too powerful for barbs to be spawning in the early game.

I mean for barbs, i wasnt talking about freemen faction

Making Fremen at peace with barbarians would obviate the need for thumper promotion things; the worms just wouldn't attack them (though if at peace, worms also wouldn't pillage their harvesters, unless this is done in python to destroy the rather than with the pillage command - and I think we do want Fremen harvesters to still get pillaged - and maybe Fremen harvesters should have a different graphic, not the big crawlers at all).

Sandworm may be Hidden Nationality, so it will be still hostile and thumper will work (remember animals in ffh)
Its also possible to hide that HN promotion.

 

[Ahriman]

I don't think the Crysknife Fighter is too powerful for Fremen; I think it suits them really well in their raider capacity. It isn't strong enough to take cities defended by infantry, except in really huge hordes, but it can to a great job of an early pillage war.

But yeah, too powerful for barbs to be spawning in the early game.

We could design a handful of barbarian-only units. The nice thing about doing that is that we can link them to whatever tech we feel like, and so make them come earlier or later.

Maybe a strength 3 or 4 melee warrior with a +25% city attack bonus (and ignore city walls).

Could we get a full list of the units that barbs can get? Expanding this would make them more interesting.

Sandworm may be Hidden Nationality, so it will be still hostile and thumper will work (remember animals in ffh)

No, obviating the need for thumpers would be a design *goal*; peace with barbs would let us do that without thumpers. So no need to make the worms HN.

 

[Slvynn]

I don't think the Crysknife Fighter is too powerful for Fremen; I think it suits them really well in their raider capacity. It isn't strong enough to take cities defended by infantry, except in really huge hordes, but it can to a great job of an early pillage war.

But yeah, too powerful for barbs to be spawning in the early game.

We could design a handful of barbarian-only units. The nice thing about doing that is that we can link them to whatever tech we feel like, and so make them come earlier or later.

Maybe a strength 3 or 4 melee warrior with a +25% city attack bonus (and ignore city walls).

Could we get a full list of the units that barbs can get? Expanding this would make them more interesting.
.

Some variety of smuglers unitss, may be Only aviable to barbarians. There also can be guild mercenaries from offworld trade topic, which attack terraformer if he have % terraformed land too hight. Str 3 +25% unit is also sounds good, but is it possible to split barbarian faction? (like it in Fall Further) - They not sit good one with other - Smugglers and Arrakis.

No, obviating the need for thumpers would be a design *goal*; peace with barbs would let us do that without thumpers. So no need to make the worms HN.

Ok

 

[Ahriman]

I see no gain from splitting barbarians unless we made Fremen be at peace with one of them; the only reason FF uses multiple factions is so various factions can be at peace with some but not all of them.

Its also not an easy change to make. In Warhammer we wanted to expand the number of barbarian factions from 3 to 5 (greenskins, undead, chaos, animals/nature, generic "other"), but it was too hard.

 

[davidlallen]

But yeah, too powerful for barbs to be spawning in the early game.

We can only control whether the barb player gets them at all; we cannot allow the barb player to have them but force them to spawn later.

Could we get a full list of the units that barbs can get? Expanding this would make them more interesting.

You can only get a list of the units they *cannot* get; then you have to subtract. Please see civilizationinfos.xml; look for CIVILIZATION_BARBARIAN; look under that for "<Units>". Each of the unitclasses listed there will have a unittype of NONE, which means the barb is not allowed to build units of that type.

No, obviating the need for thumpers would be a design *goal*; peace with barbs would let us do that without thumpers.

Do you really want to link "worms don't attack" with "barbs don't attack"? In particular, there may be Fremen units associated with other civs due to water debt. Those units should still be allowed to use thumpers, right?

 

[keldath]

hey guys, just for your knowledge,

theres a new option in rev 2.6, barbarian world, from reviews - it makes the barbs more interesting and the game to be more challanger.

soon ill finish the merge though i will leave it invisible, we can test its application for future use.

 

[Deliverator]

DV21: The Firefly unit is missing from the unit upgrade path I think. It looks like it should slot in between Wasp and Locust.

Also, is it correct that Grenade Trooper upgrades to Shield Fighter?

 

[Ahriman]

We can only control whether the barb player gets them at all; we cannot allow the barb player to have them but force them to spawn later.

I'm aware. But you *could* if you wanted take them away from barbarians, and then create a similar unit that was buildable only by the barbarian player but tie it to a later tech.
Which would have the same effect.

You can only get a list of the units they *cannot* get

Fine, same thing, I will take a look at some point. Is there a distinction between which units they can build in their cities, and which units they can spawn in fog of war?

Do you really want to link "worms don't attack" with "barbs don't attack"?

No, not particularly, but *if* you wanted to make it so that Fremen were immune to normal barbarians (which was the proposal) then I would say you shouldn't try to *undo* that by making them vulnerable to worms (by making the worms hidden nationality).
It would be very weird if Fremen were at peace with on-land barbarian smugglers, but could still be attacked by sandworms.
I don't see a strong need to make Fremen at peace with on-land barbarians, so that leaves you free to use Thumpers to effect their interaction with Worms.

barbarian world

Doesn't the barbarian world option normally start the game with barbarian cities?

We should think in general about the role of barbarians and how important they should be. I definitely don't think we should go as far as Fall Further, where barbarians are very powerful and often wipe out AIs, or hamper their growth, making the AIs a pushover. Powerful non-House/state actors don't make that much sense in a Dune setting I think.
Its not like smugglers/"feral" Fremen really pose much of a military threat to anyone.

But it would be nice if barbs were enough to at least hamper initial expansion. We could also think of the barbs as the Houses Minor, gradually getting eaten up by the Majors.

DV21: The Firefly unit is missing from the unit upgrade path I think. It looks like it should slot in between Wasp and Locust.

Fighters and bombers should upgrade differently. I forget the names, but I think we have 3 fighters, a bomber and a stealth bomber?
IIRC the Wasp and Locust are both fighters; the Firefly is a bomber. So we should not have wasp -> firefly or firefly -> locust.

Also, is it correct that Grenade Trooper upgrades to Shield Fighter?

No, it should upgrade to a heavy trooper.

 

[Slvynn]

Been playing so far i like it very much. Barbs not big threat, but yes they need some uu. Unit that exist but none of major civs can build it, and its not in list of disable units for barbs.

I tryed to play so far, and developed huge infrastructure, and was surprised (to my joy) that big economy dont mean that all is cool. 2 times i was wiped by very smart AI which just came and killed me, being tech inferriror. Feyd declared at Pleased, and took my undefended city in middle of empire. If you sprawl - know how defend it. I like it very much.
Only yes, as mentioned in other thread, i find terraforming and paradise too powerfull and arrakis spice too weak.

 

[davidlallen]

Also, is it correct that Grenade Trooper upgrades to Shield Fighter?

Sigh. It upgrades to shock trooper, which has a rifle.

 

[Slvynn]

Here i am , thinking new ideas again. Harkonenn have too much slaves. I'd say those slaves are useless in those amounts, and thats all special what Harkonnen have. They lack some "berry", which is .... HEARTPLUG.

I propose to implement some new icon - ability for Slave unit, equal to disband, but it will give hapiness in city for 2-3-4-5 turns depends on speed. Slight boost but will allow to Harkonen player to be true harrkonen and use heart plugs. Bring slave to city and pull the heartplug and give your city +4 turns of +1 happy on epic speed.
I'll will make a button, should i?

 

[keldath]

humm..how about - if the slaves will die after a certain amount of turns?....?

 

[Slvynn]

humm..how about - if the slaves will die after a certain amount of turns?....?

nono then even worse - Harkonen special feature is weak atm. If you captured workers you need not slaves. All civs special features are much stronger than ability to create slaves, bc in midgame they are useless.
What i proposing is to add funny feature - pulling the heartplug, very important feature of harkonnen in books. Simply dying slaves is boring thing compared to ability to pull it out .

Just send him to work and die or sacrifice for small and short hapinnes boost in city.

 

[keldath]

interesting i must say,

though what i suggest is that slaves will die after a while,
then it means that you need to get more slaves by attacking more, this way - you wont over populate your self with too much slaves and have tons of them.

further more, we can perhaps make 2 options for harkonen - fighter slaves and worker slaves,
50% for each, this way the harkonen ability will be better since theyll get some fighting units everynow and then, that will die after a while.

just a thought.

i also like the heartplug



edit:
oh and dune wars 1.6.2 released.

 

[Ahriman]

They lack some "berry", which is .... HEARTPLUG

very important feature of harkonnen in books

Noooooo.....
This is not Dune. This is a stupid invention of the movie - one of the main reasons that people scorn the movie.
It *never* appears in the books.

bc in midgame they are useless

No they aren't. In midgame they are great for rapidly building expensive time-consuming improvements, like deep wells, deep mines and level 2 turbines.

though what i suggest is that slaves will die after a while,

They die when they finish building an improvement. Maknig them die before then would make them too weak.

fighter slaves

Harkonnens would never trust slaves enough to give them weapons and use them in their army. The only slaves that ever get weapons are mostly for show, in the gladitorial arenas where they get killed, or for "sport" when they hunt them.

My suggestion for slaves:
a) Drop the capture probability to 50% for Harkonnen (from 100%)
b) Have the slavery civic give a +20% slave capture chance
c) Give slaves 2 movement points
d) Allow slaves to cross desert tiles, same as workers.
e) Have captured slaves spawn either outside enemy cultural borders, inside friendly cultural borders, in the closest friendly city, or in the capital city.
f) Maybe: allow slaves to be sacrificed in cities for a very small one-shot hammer bonus.