1.6 feedback

[keldath]

More is not better; let's agree on the theme, and have each U* support the theme.,

i dont like this "More is not better" phrase, im more of a - "lets have stuff that makes the game more fun".

and , uu's are always cool. i really like having 3uu per civ.

no hard fillings david, its just that im a unit junky

 

[Deliverator]

More is not better; let's agree on the theme, and have each U* support the theme.

I agree that more is not *necessarily* better, but I think that there is a risk of having themes that are too narrow. For example, I think Harkonnen=Heavy Thugs and Atreides=Air Units would be narrow themes. You can have broader themes and therefore more variety in the UUs. So I don't necessarily agree with you that every U* should support one theme. In my opinion every U* should draw out a characteristic of the faction from the books and that doesn't need to be the *same* characteristic for every U* since most factions in Dune are multi-faceted.

For example, in the book the Emperor fears that the Atreides a small number of units to match or exceed the abilities of the Sardaukar. I would like to have a small number (say 4) of Ducal Guard melee UUs to represent this small elite force. I don't see the problem with the Atreides theme being Air Power, Diplomatic bonuses and small elite force of fighters. I would rather be true to the fiction and try to represent the rich and varied world of Dune, than try and reduce every faction to a one or two word theme.

I also don't see an issue with 3 UUs per faction if there are three good ideas. More is not better, but more is fine if there are good thematic and gameplay reasons for the addition.

The phrase should be "More is not necessarily better" - otherwise you'd never add anything...

 

[keldath]

I also don't see an issue with 3 UUs per faction if there are three good ideas. More is not better, but more is fine if there are good thematic and gameplay reasons for the addition.

you put it exactly as it should.

i 100% agree with how you described this.

 

[Slvynn]

Yeah i agree completely with Deliverator om this point

 

[Slvynn]

I don't know. It is easy for you to try it out and see.

yeah i'll try it morrow, and post results

 

[Ahriman]

Regarding Water Conservation as a starting tech, I disagree with your suggestion. If one starting technology is too powerful, a better solution is to redistribute the tech tree, or move part of the tech benefit later. For example, decrease the commerce yield of windtrap to zero and add some back later.

The reason why water conservation is a no-brainer is that it is the only non-bonus-dependent water yield generator. The commerce isn't really the issue, its the water, and you can't reduce it below 1. You need water for city growth, which is *always* the priority in the early game. Just like how farming is nearly always an initial choice in vanilla and many mods (unless you have flood-plains type things, which don't exist here).

I thought the theme of Harkonnen was that they had "heavier" heavy units.

I don't really think this is coherent as a them. Having "higher strength units" isn't really a theme. I would say that a "quantity" army is better as a Harkonnen theme, hence why I like the
Cheaper makes more sense to me than higher quality, in general. The Devastator is there mostly as a westwood nod for fans, and because it feels fun.

I don't mind them having the heavy stuff, but it would be good to add some ideas like the Traitor concept to make them seem like cunning villains rather than just brainless thugs.

Absolutely, but its hard to do this.

Why not have both?

Because high-quality guardsmen units don't feel in theme.

More is not better; let's agree on the theme, and have each U* support the theme.

More is not necessarily better, but I think anything that fits a flavor theme is worth considernig. I don't see any need to limit things to "3 UUs and 1 UB per faction".
Lets put up designs for anything that feels flavorful, and then balance appropriately.

I would like to have a small number (say 4) of Ducal Guard melee UUs to represent this small elite force.

I quite like this idea.
Though we should also note that Sardaukar aren't that much better than their equal tier melee units.

 

[Slvynn]

Ok i've made tests
I removed Windrap Commerce, making it not influencing tech rates at all.
I like the result, i made couple of testings, played small game with ecaz (which is more challenging, equal to other civs btw) and 1 auto game
AI still builds Windtraps and all looks better , and , more challenge with maintaining big empire as well - similar to vanilla (thats good!) without harm to any flavor or gameplay
patch attached

 

[Slvynn]

Btw is it possible to tie units to Leader or to Trait (UUs)?
That will be cool if Duke LEto will be able to build 4 UU limited Ducal Guards, Alia - 4 Amazons, and Leto II - 4 Fish Speakers?

Perhaps it can be tied to trait - Atreides + certain trait - is such thing possible?

 

[Deliverator]

I removed Windrap Commerce, making it not influencing tech rates at all.

I guess removing commerce from Windtraps completely would also make the spice marginally more important as a commerce generator.

 

[keldath]

hey -
theres a bug in the pedia of lasgun trooper, probably an civ4unitart.xml thing.

also,
breeding project - project 1 requires project 2....?

 

[Slvynn]

I guess removing commerce from Windtraps completely would also make the spice marginally more important as a commerce generator.

This one, too

 

[Slvynn]

I think that i found another problem which generates more happy and create hapinnes overflow in game - once Ahriman mentioned that DW have not more than vanilla hapiness recources - but!
Their frequency and spead..... are different. Its much easier to get numerous hapnnes recources by few cities than in vanilla. In vanilla those recouces are more rare (being tied to certain terrain as well)
I think its script and that need some adjustment of frequency by which hapness recources appear.

 

[Slvynn]

Another one benefit from removing WT commerce - game is longer, and techs not running so fast at start of game woo hoo
Now you need to plan well your tiles, removal of universal one added alot of fun and variety and micromanagement with worked tiles. \o/

 

[Ahriman]

If we removed both commerce from windtraps, can we add one of them back at Sand farms, at least? It feels thematically appropriate AND it boosts a weak tech.

 

[Slvynn]

I think sand farms addition is ok , its quite distant tech, and makes sence perhaps, and will not break not balance, not early stage techspeed, not sagnificance of spice, gained by removal of WT commerce.

Lets add it into next patch, i already published mini patch in our sucession game, so i wont change it myself , but, obcouse , that will be ok for next patch.

 

[davidlallen]

I removed Windrap Commerce, making it not influencing tech rates at all. I like the result, i made couple of testings, played small game with ecaz (which is more challenging, equal to other civs btw) and 1 auto game

Great, thanks! Sometimes we *can* find a small change which has a big impact.

Btw is it possible to tie units to Leader or to Trait (UUs)? That will be cool if Duke LEto will be able to build 4 UU limited Ducal Guards, Alia - 4 Amazons, and Leto II - 4 Fish Speakers?

I don't know how to do it, but it is probably possible. Would all three UU have the same stats? What stats and what unit would they replace?

theres a bug in the pedia of lasgun trooper, probably an civ4unitart.xml thing. also, breeding project - project 1 requires project 2....?

I am not able to understand either of your points. The lasgun trooper looks fine to me in the pedia. Yes, each breeding project requires the previous one, for example project 3 requires project 2 and enables project 4.

I think that i found another problem which generates more happy and create hapinnes overflow in game - once Ahriman mentioned that DW have not more than vanilla hapiness recources - but! Their frequency and spead..... are different.

I thought most of the happiness problem came from the +2 happiness offworld trade resources? Which on-planet resources should we make more rare? One problem is that without the bright colors of the on-planet resources, the map is rather boring.

If we removed both commerce from windtraps, can we add one of them back at Sand farms, at least? It feels thematically appropriate AND it boosts a weak tech.

That is worth a try. Slvynn, what do you think?

 

[Slvynn]

We xposted already confirmed Sand Farms +1 c to WT Seems ok, as long as it is not 2 and added on mid-tech

According to Atreides UU - i think thy should be different
modcomp from FFH makes aviable command Post with Org trait.
Perhaps we can use that someway. MAy be National Wonder that permit contruction of those UUs. (Elite Guard Academy - perhaps there can be better name that i proposing)

Amazon = being Agg + Atreides linked = + combat 1 free - agg + stilsuit promotion (they wore stilsuit) or just +1 movement
Fish Speakers = march + 1 first strike
Ducal Guard = medic + 1 str?
I dont know what raw power they should be bu i think they shoud be very powerfull , something close to Noukkers, being 4 limit National UU.

About recources - i think that many of them are too common. I dont know yet which but i see much of them around every game.
1st - Diamonds. They appear too often to my taste. I just made large map and fopund that almost ever yciv have Diamon in their culture.
2 - Burro Weed - again - too much of them in every place of the map
i think halving those will do good job.

Every hapiness recource should be luxury
As for "dull" look of map - dont worry - there are plently health resources around , it would not look dull, change will be not sagnificant to change terrain look drastically

 

[keldath]

I am not able to understand either of your points. The lasgun trooper looks fine to me in the pedia. Yes, each breeding project requires the previous one, for example project 3 requires project 2 and enables project 4.

ok -

for lasgun - get into the duneopedia -look for te lasgun trooper - press on it - you wont get any info and youll have a python error.

second,
under the concept - projects - you get great wonders,
under projects - you see the freat people, i think there was a mix up in the order.

as for the breeding - i had a mistake.

 

[Deliverator]

If we removed both commerce from windtraps, can we add one of them back at Sand farms, at least? It feels thematically appropriate AND it boosts a weak tech.

What are sand farms anyway? Surely in the harsh windswept deserts of Dune - farming is not really feasible. I've never been convinced this is really a Dunish concept. Is there a better name for the tech? I think this name is a left-over from the old tech tree.

About recources - i think that many of them are too common. I dont know yet which but i see much of them around every game.
1st - Diamonds. They appear too often to my taste.
Every hapiness recource should be luxury
As for "dull" look of map - dont worry - there are plently health resources around , it would not look dull, change will be not sagnificant to change terrain look drastically

It is relatively straightforward to change the proportions of bonuses. Perhaps we should also make some of the map based happy bonuses into health instead? For instance makes all the dew resources +health instead of +happy.

Btw is it possible to tie units to Leader or to Trait (UUs)? That will be cool if Duke LEto will be able to build 4 UU limited Ducal Guards, Alia - 4 Amazons, and Leto II - 4 Fish Speakers?

I do like the idea of Alia's Amazons being in the mod, but I'm not sure what power they should have or where they should sit in the tech tree.

 

[Deliverator]

ok -
for lasgun - get into the duneopedia -look for te lasgun trooper - press on it - you wont get any info and youll have a python error.

second,
under the concept - projects - you get great wonders,
under projects - you see the freat people, i think there was a mix up in the order.

Are you playing with your new SDK version? I experienced this breaking of the pedia, where the menu and list are out of sync, with one of the new versions you posted.