1000 Beakers! Per Turn!

[generalwar]

You can get 100 bpt with 2 good cities (capitol with NC and an observatory cities) and a couple trashy 4 pop ones, based on my calculations. When I did the 10 pop NC capitol calculation I forgot about the palace; a cap at that size is 50 bpt by itself.

Depending on the availability of maritime and AI gold 100 bpt should be possible fairly soon (BCs or early ADs) with a much higher effective rate with RA's, based on what I'm reading. I have a lot to try out in the near future.

It seems holding pop down in cities that are settled for lux resources really is the way to go, only growing the ones that are going to be really strong.

I am now going to try pangea map on prince and I'll try to build few strong cities and more smaller, gold production cities. I'll probably make my capital science city and so on. I'll report later. There are so many things that I haven't tried in ciV.

 

[alpaca]

Alpaca, also don't forget that on King (my level) the AIs are pretty poor. They cannot afford both RAs and resource trades at the same time. Not for the first 100 turns or so (depends on later conquests).

A good point. This does indeed decrease tech speed and early game build-up significantly. It's what I call "inversion of difficulty" - it makes very early victories likely easier on very high difficulties than on lower ones. It doesn't make winning in general easier, though, and you're like to become stronger than the deity player as time progresses

Edit: Would anyone be interested in a mod that outputs your accumulated beakers and beakers per turn?

 

[fjordan]

Thank you for opening this thread TMIT. Allthough there is much to complain about CiV, I am enyoing it a lot so I got really tired of all the whining on the forums. Strat & tips is a bit better lately. To me the main problem is the inability of the AI to wage war, all the rest of the so-called exploits are just nerfed to compensate for this.

Now to answer your gold question I will rattle up a discussion I saw before on this forum: trade post versus mine/lumbermill. I will build trade post on hills and forest everywhere except near my capital, only replacing them with mills after Steam Power. Apart from selling everything that is a good source of income. I just prefer the flexibility of the gold (RA, CS, emergency buy) over the direct production benefit. And yes, I will do everything to get as much RA's as possible.

Another thing I did not see mentioned yet, I usually take Patronage just because a CS will yield 10-15 BPT and that is good portion of my raw science mid-game. To get to 1000 that is minor but that is end-game.

I do not like some here have a fixed strategy (yet?). I used to take out at least my first neighbour but warfare hase become a lot more difficult post-patch (stronger cities, nerfed horsemen, less beelining, slightly better AI) so now I am turtling a bit more. I just settle my land and then decide. If I go to war I will still always puppet. Just make sure to replace all farms with trade posts and they will not run out of control.

I play at Immortal but I am struggling post-patch so I may step back to Emperor if I don't win my current game easily (great start).

 

[Mathew]

I think this is the best thread I've seen on the Civ 5 forums, thanks for starting it TMIT. Hopefully we can get more discussions like this going.

That being said I have nothing to contribute to the actual discussion, I'm just here to learn

 

[Jester Fool]

I play at Immortal but I am struggling post-patch so I may step back to Emperor if I don't win my current game easily (great start).

I won Agustus Caesar on Immortal (> 90% of the time) pre-patch. After several games post-patch, and facing AIs with 20+ cities by the time I could get 6-8 due to happiness constraints, I DID have to go back down to Emperor, mostly from rage frustration. First game (my current) at this level, and the game is completely easy. However, it is extremely fun to play - which is requirement #1 (for me anyways).

 

[generalwar]

I was playing with Greece on pangea, small, prince. I have about 6 cities in 1500s and I even now don't have 100 bpt. I built NC, university and library in my capital and not a single library in other cities. I think that's why I had so bad science. How do you manage to get 100 bkt in late BCs or early ADs? Build lib, NC and then straith for education? Share some tips with me, please! I'm so bad at post patch civ .

 

[grandad1982]

At generalwar. To get the big beakers from your capital you need to grow it and grow it fast so you can take advantage of the multipliers.

It seems that one of the common themes in this thread are that you should concentrate on big sci out put from a few cities, i.e. grow them big, whilst keeping your gold producing cities at a happy neutral level, i.e. small and spam them or us puppets.

The possible exception to the gold issue might be the capital if you get the tradition policy (not sure what its called) that gives you 1 gold for every 2 pop and the first policy from commerce (25% gold in capital). These combined with markets etc could really create a gold generating monster. This probably requires a couple of MCS's so you can still grow, run specs and work TPs.

 

[generalwar]

At generalwar. To get the big beakers from your capital you need to grow it and grow it fast so you can take advantage of the multipliers.

It seems that one of the common themes in this thread are that you should concentrate on big sci out put from a few cities, i.e. grow them big, whilst keeping your gold producing cities at a happy neutral level, i.e. small and spam them or us puppets.

The possible exception to the gold issue might be the capital if you get the tradition policy (not sure what its called) that gives you 1 gold for every 2 pop and the first policy from commerce (25% gold in capital). These combined with markets etc could really create a gold generating monster. This probably requires a couple of MCS's so you can still grow, run specs and work TPs.

Thanks for tip. I have never thought about combining commerce tree with that in tradition. So, if I take that with 2 gold per 1 pop and I have my capitol, lets say, at size 16, I get 8 gpt for pop. With 25% due to commerce tree is 10 gold and with bank and market is 15 gold. But, you could still use those social policies in commerce and that 1 in tradition for something else so I'm not sure does it pays itselfs.

 

[Monthar]

Thanks for tip. I have never thought about combining commerce tree with that in tradition. So, if I take that with 2 gold per 1 pop and I have my capitol, lets say, at size 16, I get 8 gpt for pop. With 25% due to commerce tree is 10 gold and with bank and market is 15 gold. But, you could still use those social policies in commerce and that 1 in tradition for something else so I'm not sure does it pays itselfs.

Don't forget National Treasure for another +8 gold before the multipliers. So that's 16 * 1.75 = 28 gpt in the capital without counting any gold from worked tiles. Unless I'm not adding these correctly, that should cover the maintenance cost of having granary, watermill, monument, temple, opera house, coliseum, theater, stadium, library, university, public school and research lab in the capital. This means, more population, faster population growth, more beakers, more SP, etc. The increased and faster growing pop, means even more money from those two policies.

It only requires 4 policies to get this gold bonus. The 2 tradition policies needed to get to the gold per 2 pop policy are those that increase pop growth rate and reduce pop unhappiness in the capital.

Those science buildings funded by these policies with 16 pop should equal 2.5(16 + 8 + 16) = 100 bpt. Add National College to that and it should come to 3(16+8+16+5) = 135 bpt.

Edit: This isn't counting any beakers or gold you might get from specialists.

 

[hellboy909]

I never specialize my cities. Should I be doing this?

Usually play on Duel maps (crappy below spec computer) at King to Immortal. So I don't usually have more than 6-7 cities, tops (not counting puppets). The most specializing I ever do is designating one or two cities for land unit production with a barracks. Even then I often build barracks in every city eventually so I can get Heroic Epic.

 

[generalwar]

I never specialize my cities. Should I be doing this?

Usually play on Duel maps (crappy below spec computer) at King to Immortal. So I don't usually have more than 6-7 cities, tops (not counting puppets). The most specializing I ever do is designating one or two cities for land unit production with a barracks. Even then I often build barracks in every city eventually so I can get Heroic Epic.

I'm not really specializing my cities. Yes, I choose 1 or 2 science cities, moneymaker cities, OK, I specialize them, but not completely. I have never build military production city which would produce units most of time. Are you building military cities with barracks, heroic epic and that stff? This question is addressed to all of you. And, would you say that it's a most to have 1 of those?

 

[biohazard72]

My take (Deity, Continents, Standard Speed):

- National College start. Sell luxuries for cash.
- First build in 1st-wave expansion cities is Colosseum.
- Grow cities to around size 3 then production focus. Then grow once more when Colosseum completes.
- Library-University after Colosseums. Sneak in Monuments close to Renaissance for 3rd policy.
- Second wave expansion if there's room, otherwise build military to take some land.
- Workshop in capital for Great Engineer. Workshops elsewhere when no other building was pressing.
- Astronomy beeline + buy Caravel + sign RAs overseas. RAs with on-continent civs finish Education, Civil Service, and Astronomy.
- Tradition-Oligarchy for non-warmonger civs, Tradition-Liberty or Tradition-Aristrocracy otherwise. Rationalism-Secularism-Freedom afterward, perhaps doing Freedom first if happiness looks to be an issue.
- Public Schools everywhere when available. After Public School finishes, Market-Bank-Wealth (for eventual switch to merchant specialists, trading of GPT surplus for cash for whatever your reasons are). I set up a few production cities as well (former capitals if I'm warmongering) for late wonders or spaceship parts.

Oh and I always make sure that my city's population matches its happiness production. Circus eligible cities grow to size 6, others are 4. Production cities are 9 or 11 (with Circus).

 

[Bibor]

My take (Deity, Continents, Standard Speed):

- National College start. Sell luxuries for cash.
- First build in 1st-wave expansion cities is Colosseum.
- Grow cities to around size 3 then production focus. Then grow once more when Colosseum completes.
- Library-University after Colosseums. Sneak in Monuments close to Renaissance for 3rd policy.
- Second wave expansion if there's room, otherwise build military to take some land.
- Workshop in capital for Great Engineer. Workshops elsewhere when no other building was pressing.
- Astronomy beeline + buy Caravel + sign RAs overseas
- Tradition-Oligarchy for non-warmonger civs, Tradition-Liberty or Tradition-Aristrocracy otherwise. Rationalism-Secularism-Freedom afterward, perhaps doing Freedom first if happiness looks to be an issue.
- Public Schools everywhere when available. After Public School finishes, Market-Bank-Wealth (for eventual switch to merchant specialists, trading of GPT surplus for cash for whatever your reasons are). I set up a few production cities as well (former capitals if I'm warmongering) for late wonders or spaceship parts.

Oh and I always make sure that my city's population matches its happiness production. Circus eligible cities grow to size 6, others are 4. Production cities are 9 or 11 (with Circus).

I'm not so sure that Libraries and Public Schools are worth it in pop 6 cities. That's extra 9 for 4. Actually, I'm sure its not worth it. A pop 12 city would gain double the science for same GPT (plus all the goodies from University and general population). Extra RAs have a better ratio in Renaissance+. Not to mention the hammer cost.

Considering "enable saving up policies" is not checked, Piety will give much better results (enabling higher population per city) than Rationalism. And sooner.

 

[biohazard72]

I'm not so sure that Libraries and Public Schools are worth it in pop 6 cities. That's extra 9 for 4. Actually, I'm sure its not worth it. A pop 12 city would gain double the science for same GPT (plus all the goodies from University and general population). Extra RAs have a better ratio in Renaissance+. Not to mention the hammer cost.

Considering "enable saving up policies" is not checked, Piety will give much better results (enabling higher population per city) than Rationalism. And sooner.

Libraries are for the University requirement - I run a specialist everywhere. Public Schools are build more out of apathy than anything - I don't see anything really worth building at that point. Usually I'll build Circus/Mint/Monastery/Observatory/etc. beforehand. At the point where Public Schools are available, the cities won't grow fast enough to justify Theatres, Temple sucks, etc. so I just build Public Schools. I suppose I could go Market-Bank earlier or build units, but I don't need units at that point and going Market-Bank that early would lead to timing problems and wasted production. So Public Schools by default.

Disagree on Piety. Too much culture. NC start means you grab an ancient era policy. It then takes 3 more policies to get to Theocracy, and 6 more until the 2 free SP policy. That's simply far too many for any civilization except France. I could definitely see France doing well with a Classical beeline, grabbing Piety as the 2nd policy and filling it through, then using the 2 free SPs on Freedom/Civil Society to set up a specialist economy. That's only 7 policies you need to grab naturally which is definitely doable. Probably 8 though, because with their ability you would likely grab two ancient era policies. 8 is tough but possible with a cultural ally or two.

 

[Alsn]

Edit: Nevermind, I fail @ math.

 

[Crow, of Earth]

I'm curious about what is considered first wave of expansion, how it should go. I've seen this in a few posts above, but I don't have a reference on what is an acceptable city count. Also, if you can settle 10ish cities without having to worry about getting to them first, how do you time the settlers?

In my current game, I've tried two approaches, neither feeling quite acceptable, last one being:
- worker, monument, library, national college, kept capital at 4 while training two settlers; capital had gold
- settled near cotton
- settled in a very green area with the potential for two fish resources in the late mid-game; this city started building a colloseum
- grown capital one pop while training a trireme (playing archipelago, don't know anyone yet)
- trained a worker and built a monument in the cotton city, then colloseum
- new settler in capital, settled an island for sugar, start colloseum
- new settler in capital, settled an island for furs, start colloseum
- built colloseum in capital

The problem is, at this point, I'm already at -1 or close happiness, but if I settle fewer cities it feels like missing out.

This is on archipelago, policy saving, no ancient ruins, no city states to remove some of the randomness while trying things out. I have an island with 2 luxuries all for myself, and another three islands with 3 luxuries which are reasonably close, maybe another island with another luxury somewhat more remote. I have 6 iron near capital, 6 on one of those islands, another 6 within reach and the goal is earliest navigation. In my last attempt on this map, I think I was going to get navigation around turn 450 marathon, with education offered by a RA, which seems late.

 

[Bibor]

Luxuries are overrated. As are numerous but small cities (at least post-patch). What you need is a fair gain in both strategic and luxury resources, coupled with good growth and protected territory. All variations bring in good things, but the approach is different depending on the land given to you.

The actual lay of the land also has a significant impact on what you should or should not do.

 

[biohazard72]

Luxuries are overrated. As are numerous but small cities (at least post-patch). What you need is a fair gain in both strategic and luxury resources, coupled with good growth and protected territory. All variations bring in good things, but the approach is different depending on the land given to you.

The actual lay of the land also has a significant impact on what you should or should not do.

Luxuries aren't overrated. You should aggressively settle even spare luxuries, because they can be traded for gold or more luxuries every 30 turns.

 

[Bibor]

Luxuries aren't overrated. You should aggressively settle even spare luxuries, because they can be traded for gold or more luxuries every 30 turns.

A single happiness resource is potentially worth 7-10 GPT throughout most of the game. So yes, they are important. But you cannot enter a "happiness luxury craze" and neglect everything else. I got burned more than once with this approach.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

A single happiness resource is potentially worth 7-10 GPT throughout most of the game. So yes, they are important. But you cannot enter a "happiness luxury craze" and neglect everything else. I got burned more than once with this approach.

I've been playing around with suggestions here and am suddenly a MUCH stronger player.

It doesn't have much cost to drop settlers on lux resources for trades. As long as you don't trade yourself into bad , which you probably won't if you go coli first in each new city, the lux resource ROI is absolutely incredible even if you DON'T BS the AI via self-pillaged tiles every 3 turns (I avoid doing this expecting it to be patched).

You can build military units/gold in one city, science buildings in another, and everything else is just stock small cities that are really more like resource outposts that eventually generate wealth (significantly more than they cost) - the ability to spam bankrolling RAs just completely overwhelms everything else in the game right now. Even with like 200 bpt I dug into the modern era around 1600 AD or so and was throwing around mechinf and air not long after. I don't micro optimize because I'm lazy, good players on larger maps (this one was tiny; only 3 RAs at once available) could get MUCH deeper into the tree sooner due to more RA. They're just that good, whether or not you "steer" them.

So right now, this game is EXTREMELY resource driven, with a little bit of requirements in tactics and macro specialization (a big science capitol to clear more minor techs is a nice plus).