2010 Winter Olympics

[Orange Seeds]

I don't know why everyone in Canada is so down over yesterday's result.

Now, instead of denying the Russians the gold, we can deny them a medal entirely.

Any true Canadian hockey fan can appreciate the beauty in that.

I was in a sour mood yesterday, but i feel a bit more confident heading into the next two games. Canada played a great game yesterday and ought to have won. We improved quite a bit over the Switzerland game. Now Luongo can be the hometown hero once he pulls us past the Russians and we get an extra game to find some chemistry.

However, it will be two Turins in a row if we can't beat the Russians Wednesday.

 

[warpus]

:envy:


probably both

why would he congratulate the Finnish coach?

Unfortunately not all officials are as graceful at losing as the polish coach...thinking of the fuss some silly austrian offical made over Amman's binding....Good thing is, that the actual austrian jumpers took it with much more grace

Whoops, I meant Swiss! I keep thinking Ammann's finnihs for some reason. I know, his name doesn't looks Finnish at all.. (maybe if they added a couple vowels it would)

 

[mitsho]

Don't take it the wrong way. Imagine if Brazil tied to Switzerland at home, in a major tournament. Same kinda thing

In hockey? Have you read the whole discussion on the topic. The thing is exactly that the relations are off. Yes, Canada is the big favourite and greatest hockey nation, but a tie after 60 minutes is not embarassing, especially when you go on to win. If you go with soccer - what I think the allegory is aiming at - then it would be more like Brazil tieing with Netherlands or Portugal, i.e. second-tier soccer nations.

Man, Amman was so amazing.. leaps and bounds above the rest of the competition! I was cheering for Malysz the whole time (obviously), but Amman's jumps were just.. so.. incredible. No shame in losing to him at all.

In fact, I did see Malysz cheering after Amman jumped. Are they friends? Or is Malysz just a really classy guy? I also saw the Polish coach congratulating the Finnish coach right after Amman jumped.. Where else would you see that in the entire olympics from a losing coach/athlete?

Well, I don't know, he might be friendly ;-) Malysz seemed quite happy with his medal. As to Amman being amazing. He will probably go on being an amazing jerk and annoy the normal-thinking Swiss People, one highlight of his is the following stunt at a Swiss "Game" Show. enjoin!


Link to video.

 

[Grisu]

yeah, he's an undercover finn...his real name is Sami Ammannamäki

 

[warpus]

Hahahah that's not realy him, is it? I've seen that before

In hockey? Have you read the whole discussion on the topic. The thing is exactly that the relations are off. Yes, Canada is the big favourite and greatest hockey nation, but a tie after 60 minutes is not embarassing, especially when you go on to win. If you go with soccer - what I think the allegory is aiming at - then it would be more like Brazil tieing with Netherlands or Portugal, i.e. second-tier soccer nations.

Maybe we're behind the times, but here we view Canada, the U.S., Russia, the Czechs, Sweden, and sometimes Finland in an elite group of "top hockey nations".. Everybody else is crap, and we should be able to kick their butts If I asked the random Canadian on the street to give me a list of non-elite hockey playing nations, Slovakia would get mentioned, Belarus would be in there, Norway and Germany... not sure who else. I really didn't know that Switzerland had a decent hockey team and thought that Torino was a fluke.

The embarassment comes from the perception that you can't have a result like that against a non-elite team... as well as a lack of knowledge of the improvements in the Swiss game..

I used brazil vs switzerland as an example, cause if portugal or the netherlands came to brazil to play the home team, the home fans would know that portugal and holland are good teams, capable of beating brazil. maybe with a bit of difficulty at home, but brazilian fans are way more knowledgeable about the Dutch national team than canadian hockey fans would be about the swiss hockey team.

I think a lot of people here still think that the 3-2 OT win was the result of poor Canadian play, instead of some of it having to do with a good swiss team.. But if you guys have some more good results in the future, that perception should change.. We're all kinda stuck in that early 90s world where you load up your super nintendo, throw on blades of steel, and can play as canada, czech, russia, the u.s., sweden, or finland

 

[Grisu]

Slovakia would get mentioned, Belarus would be in there, Norway and Germany... not sure who else. I really didn't know that Switzerland had a decent hockey team and thought that Torino was a fluke.

the swiss team has been ahead of all of them save slovakia for quite some time now

We're all kinda stuck in that early 90s world where you load up your super nintendo, throw on blades of steel, and can play as canada, czech, russia, the u.s., sweden, or finland

blades of steel

 

[mitsho]

Yes it's him (Simon Amman), a few months after his wins in Salt Lake City 2002. Re Hockey, ok, that might be a problem, but we've been Nr 7 respectively 8 of the world for some time now, in front of those teams you mentionned ;-). Something else, do you actually know of the Spengler Cup? I heard it gets televised in Canada (as they want to see Team Canada win ;-)).

 

[warpus]

I'm actually not a huge hockey fan, so I may be off the mark here ... I think I'm getting across the "jist" of the situation fairly well though.. do not know much about the Spengler cup.

 

[Adria]

warpus - the OT win against Switzerland was due in large part to a poor performance by team Canada. Switzerland had great goaltending, but that was really it. Canada looked very disorganized and lackluster on the ice. If Canada played like they're capable of (and they've shown glimpses of it so far), Switzerland would never have gotten a sniff at OT. But that's why the games are played on ice and not on paper; some teams just can't get their acts together on game day no matter how much talent they have.

Re Hockey, ok, that might be a problem, but we've been Nr 7 respectively 8 of the world for some time now, in front of those teams you mentionned ;-). Something else, do you actually know of the Spengler Cup? I heard it gets televised in Canada (as they want to see Team Canada win ;-)).

There's always been a drop between the top-tier teams (Canada, Russia, etc) and the next tier of teams. That drop-off in talent is starting to get lower and lower down the international rankings and while Switzerland has certainly improved a lot in recent years, they're not quite up with the big boys yet. Give them just a few more years though...


We do get some coverage of the Spengler Cup here, but not many people follow it; most hockey fans are too busy following their NHL teams which, honestly, are better Canada's Spengler Cup teams. The Canadian team tends to be a lot of guys who can't cut it in the NHL. I've only seen part of one game, and Byron Ritchie & Brad Isbister - cut loose by the Canucks because those guys couldn't make the fourth line - combined for a goal on the powerplay. If those guys are part of a powerplay unit, that's a pretty low-calibre team in the grand scheme of Canadian hockey. But it's a great tournament for the Canadian players playing in Europe because it gives them a chance to represent Canada, albeit at a lower level.

 

[Orange Seeds]

The Spengler cup is an incredibly poor estimate of talent. NHL, AHL(occasionally very young AHL prospects participate) and CHL players do not participate, only players in Europe. The fact that Canada has won the Spengler cup so many times just shows how far below European leagues are.

Switzerland is still only at the top of the bottom tier of hockey nations. I understand that the Swiss have pulled off a few upsets recently, but they are a bit misleading. The Swiss team plays a very defensive, positional style and has benefited from superb goaltending and coaching. Its difficult to run the score up against them unlike the Norwegians, Germans and Latvians. You have to watch Swiss players individually in order to evaluate their ability.

The fact of the matter is, there are few Swiss players that ever would have been glanced at to play in this tournament had they been Swedish, Russian or even Slovakian. Its difficult to definitively prove this as I cannot refer to objective markers of talent. All statistical indications point to the above. So do the actions of the best hockey minds in the best league in the world(scouts and GMs are not signing or drafting swiss players in the same number they are Canadian, Finnish etc.).

I don't mean to tarnish the obvious improvement the Swiss have made over the last decade, nor to say that they will never become respectable. But they are far from equitable with the top tier of hockey nations right now and its going to be a while yet before they are.

Keep in mind that both the Czechs and Slovaks will be minor hockey powers come 5 years. They have simply stopped developing any prospects in both those countries. The Swiss appear poised to replace one of those nations.

EDIT: I say all of this as a person who watches a lot of hockey, who has had NHL seasons tickets in the family since my birth, who watches every important international tournament. I have seen hundreds of games and thousands of players over the last decade. Hockey is my one emotional attachment(I kid you not, I am completely stoic outside the aberrations in my mood caused by this silly game). In short, I know my hockey, and expertise is important considering some of my statements made above.

 

[Adria]

What a FANTASTIC performance from Canadians Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir in the ice dance!!

First time the gold medal for ice dance has been won by a North American pair.

 

[warpus]

Keep in mind that both the Czechs and Slovaks will be minor hockey powers come 5 years. They have simply stopped developing any prospects in both those countries. The Swiss appear poised to replace one of those nations.

You think? The Czechs have somehow been able to pump out superb athletes from various sports over the last couple decades: hockey, soccer, and tennis immediately come to mind.

Why is this? There's only like what, 8 million of them? I always assumed that the country placed a greater emphasis on athletics than most other countries, and that they just had a whole bunch of hockey rinks and tennis courts everywhere or something. (They're in Europe, so of course they have soccer pitches everywhere too)

So what's gonna change, in your opinion? Is the stream of Czech players just drying up, and you're not sure why, or has something in the czech republic changed to make you say that?

 

[warpus]

What a FANTASTIC performance from Canadians Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir in the ice dance!!

First time the gold medal for ice dance has been won by a North American pair.

Oh, we got our 5th gold? NICE!

 

[Grisu]

The Spengler cup is an incredibly poor estimate of talent. NHL, AHL(occasionally very young AHL prospects participate) and CHL players do not participate, only players in Europe. The fact that Canada has won the Spengler cup so many times just shows how far below European leagues are.

except that they only won it once in the last 6 years...last year they even lost to a DEL team

Switzerland is still only at the top of the bottom tier of hockey nations.

I don't think you understand what bottom means sure it's not one of the 6-7 elite nations, but it's right there after those

I understand that the Swiss have pulled off a few upsets recently, but they are a bit misleading.

if upsets get common, maybe they're not such big upsets?

The Swiss team plays a very defensive, positional style and has benefited from superb goaltending and coaching.

Ironically, the latter has been constantly critizized for the last 4 or so years
It's true, switerland plays defensively, but all teams usually do, if they have to go up against a superior opponent. But teh swiss play has evolved a lot over the last 10 years from the swiss-wall style of play that they used to have in the 90s...compare a game from switzerland from that era to one of the recent games and you know what I mean.

The fact of the matter is, there are few Swiss players that ever would have been glanced at to play in this tournament had they been Swedish, Russian or even Slovakian. Its difficult to definitively prove this as I cannot refer to objective markers of talent.

well, obviously, especially since those teams consist mostly of NHLers. That was never my point...my point was that the gap between those players and the swiss players is a lot smaller than it used to be (though still being clearly there)

I don't mean to tarnish the obvious improvement the Swiss have made over the last decade, nor to say that they will never become respectable.

surely you meant good instead of respectable, right?

Keep in mind that both the Czechs and Slovaks will be minor hockey powers come 5 years. They have simply stopped developing any prospects in both those countries. The Swiss appear poised to replace one of those nations.

don't really know about the czech, they still have some resevers, but it surely seems to be teh case with slovakia.

 

[holy king]

watch out switzerland, two more golds and we have you.

 

[Grisu]

watch out switzerland, two more golds and we have you.

unfortunately, that's all too likwly

especially if your skiiers stop underperforming

 

[Winner]

Keep in mind that both the Czechs and Slovaks will be minor hockey powers come 5 years. They have simply stopped developing any prospects in both those countries. The Swiss appear poised to replace one of those nations.

Too bad we've been hearing that for the past 20 years and it didn't happen

Finland, Czechia, Slovakia and other smaller nations are more vulnerable to the cyclic "generation exchange" because their "manpower pool" is limited. But given the popularity of ice hockey in the Czech Rep. (and Slovakia to somewhat lesser extent), I simply don't see how could they possibly fall below the "lesser" hockey nations.

If there's one country that can enter the "elite club" in hockey, it's perhaps Belarus. I'd like Switzerland to get there, but unless they stop playing defensively all the time, they just won't.

EDIT: I say all of this as a person who watches a lot of hockey, who has had NHL seasons tickets in the family since my birth, who watches every important international tournament. I have seen hundreds of games and thousands of players over the last decade. Hockey is my one emotional attachment(I kid you not, I am completely stoic outside the aberrations in my mood caused by this silly game). In short, I know my hockey, and expertise is important considering some of my statements made above.

Whatever, you're simply wrong at this point.

 

[REDY]

Well but its quite disturbing that our clearly best player is 38 years old and last medal in youth category was before 5 years.

 

[Winner]

Well but its quite disturbing that our clearly best player is 38 years old and last medal in youth category was before 5 years ago.

(the most obvious mistake corrected, I hope you still encourage this )

Yes, the junior team is a real disappointment and we REALLY need to do something about it, otherwise we'll be in trouble.

But I wouldn't go as far as to say that we're gonna fall to the level of teams like Latvia or Norway (no offence intended). We still have a lot of tradition and experience to draw from.

 

[warpus]

I am still waiting for Poland to return as a hockey power, as we once were in the 70s