2nd British Civil War 2012

[navman74]

I agree with ashep (again) lol. Many who complain of "tax cuts for the rich" etc never stop to realize that if a "rich" person makes, say, a million, for a nice round number, and pays, say, 10% tax, he STILL is paying vastly more than a "poor"person making, say, 10,000$ and paying 10%...to top that off, our"rich"even after tax breaks, pay nearly a double percentage(like roughly 30% to 15% for "non rich") so then the leftists and unions etc decide that is still too much of a break...I think the end result is only obvious..layoffs, and that is what we have seen, sadly the president has taken heat for these, that have been the inevitable result off too MUCH tax pressures on wealthy and businesses. I am not, myself, a wealthy person, but I love the system that would reward me for working hard.
I do think Europe's economy works quite well..dark phantom made some good points..one which I would like to make is the same as one he made a couple of posts ago...many europeans etc think they can know best how to "fix" this country's problems..I appreciate the care, but really, as was told to someone earlier about comments he made regarding Europe, he was told that the europeans, rightly, knew their own situation better..might I say that to people regarding our situation as well.I like this community, and certainly don't wish offence to anyone, but it does fume me a little when I see so many non-Americans with anti-Bush slogans regarding the coming elections here.
Anyway..sorry for the rant guys Communisto, you should consider making this more closely matching your other scenario ww3..it could be a campaign style scenario easily.
Thanks all, Ron

 

[Chuck2280]

Dang, I have been away from this thread far too long! I've been reading the posts that I missed, and there have been excellent ones on both sides of the arguement.

To ashep: You asked me, a few posts ago, why Washington is called the "American Cincinnatus". Washington is called the "American Cincinnatus" for his willingness to serve his country and then to give up his power when the job was done.
Cincinnatus was a Roman farmer who had risen through the political and military ranks to be, basically, a General. Having done this, he retired to his farm to live out the life of a Roman gentleman farmer. According to the legend (and what I could gather), he was plowing his fields one day when a messenger showed up and told him that he had been appointed Roman Dictator. He had other work to do and really didn't want the job, but instead of attending to his own wants and needs, he accepted the position. He left his farm, went to Rome, and, when he could have seized power and become a Ceasar, he instead handed the reigns of power back to the Roman Senate, resigned, and went back to farming. He served as Dictator for all of 15 (or 16, depending on the story) days.
The website "http://www.leadershipnow.com/cincinnatus.html" (eliminate the quotes) does a much, much better job at telling the story of Cincinnatus than I do.
But from what I have found out, it was this willingness to serve his country and to relinquish his power (when it was at its height, after his 2nd term as pres.), that earned Washington the nickname.
I hope this answers your question.

 

[ashep5000]

Very good chuck.....that is the right answer. To be honest I didn't know about it until my history professor told me last year. (history 141, american I) But anyway washington has always been my favorite historical character and founding father. Even when the continential army was not being paid he paid them out of his private money.

 

[TheDarkPhantom]

Firstly in response to Navman: I appreciate your point, and I am cautious about making comments on the US when I do not live there. All I would like to say to justify my interests (and signature) is that firstly, I'm a politics, economics and history student, and my courses all involve sections on comparative politics with the US, secondly, that I have friends and relations who live in the US and have been to your fantastic country many times, and thirdly, that my opposition to Bush is primarily due to his foreign policy and personal opinions, personality and doctrines. I do appreciate the political situation and how disillusioned or generally unsatisfied people are with Kerry and the Democrat party in general. I suppose my view is that honestly Bush is so dangerous, largely to the rest of the world, but also to America, that anyone would be preferable. But I respect, of course, your better relationship with your country than I have with it.

To everyone else, I have no time to post as lengthy a message as I would like at the moment, but firstly just to say that I do not begrudge anyone for their opinions, though I do not agree to them, I could not claim to be a Liberal (which I do) if I wanted to make others think like I do. I firmly believe that differing opinions and the discussions like we are having here improve everyone. My only real difficulty is when I fundamentally disagree with the facts your putting forward, as they are not accurate to reality to the best of my knowledge.

Just for a couple of points as i'm in a hurry: 1) (It's hardly important but) Arnold Swarznegger is Austrian, who were never communist, their independence and neutrality in the cold war was affirmed by the Geneva Accord of 1954. His only political ties from Austria are that his Father was an ex-Fascist, but that's probably not the best thing to publicise.

2) I think very few Europeans are suggesting that the USA should become more 'Socialist' just that it could adopt some more left-wing policies (which is very different). As I have said, the USA is of course relatively prosperous because you have a GDP of $9 trillion, and Undemployment is low because of this, with such a massive national economy, even with a high population, there is obviously massive demand for workers. But this is not to say that workers are paid well. World famously the USA is a fantastic place to be if you are rich, but terrible if you are poor (and I mean seriously so). The capitalist economic system does not incentivise workers to the extent many think, and the US even lacks a minimum wage (the biggest change Europeans think the US ought to implement). Also, though I am not suggesting the US adopt a socialist or communist system (as I have said) the failings you list are simply not realistic. Research in the Soviet Union, even in non-military areas often exceeded the US, but Russia lacked the basic infratsurcture and socio-economic system to qualify this into real improved living standards, particularly with the other priorities of the cold war.

As I said, I do not want to be seen to interfering in US affairs when I am not an American citizen, but these are my views from Europe and I merely put them forward with respect. Plenty more I'd like to say but I must go, perhaps I'll post again some time soon while people are still up for political debate .

 

[Communisto]

where are from in europe, dark phantom, pre tell

 

[General Kohl]

once again chuck I agree with you, I do think part of the reason GW went to war was to finish his fathers work, but not the only reason. I agree with just about all of what you said. I beleive that communisto has seen and believed to much leftist propaganda. Just about all of hollywood is left, sometimes far far left. I hate that guy Michael Moore, the guy is such a loser.

And i believe you´ve been watching too much Fox News and Right wing propaganda, It is clear that The war on Iraq was made for economical reasons, not olny oil companies made large profits with it, but also most of BUSH´S 2000 ELECTION CAIMPAIGN like Halliburton, United Defense, The Carolean Group, Fox Media Group and many others that gained multi-millionaire contracts in "Iraq´s Rebuild Program" or gained money directly because of the "War Effort", also i would like to quote that your opnion about Hollywood is a little curious, since Michal Moore was not supported by ANY OF THE LARGE STUDIOS LIKE DYSNEY AND MGM and had to do his great documentary in an independent studio, Also need to say that Michael Moore is not a loser, he may be a little exagerated but most of his documentary is true and just show what the US Media didn´t due to it´s "Patriotic Internal Censorship"(Just call Fox News Public Relations Service or better, ask a journalist about their Patriotic Content Control)

 

[navman74]

......... The capitalist economic system does not incentivise workers to the extent many think, and the US even lacks a minimum wage (the biggest change Europeans think the US ought to implement). Also, though I am not suggesting the US adopt a socialist or communist system (as I have said) the failings you list are simply not realistic. Research in the Soviet Union, even in non-military areas often exceeded the US, but Russia lacked the basic infratsurcture and socio-economic system to qualify this into real improved living standards, particularly with the other priorities of the cold war.

As I said, I do not want to be seen to interfering in US affairs when I am not an American citizen, but these are my views from Europe and I merely put them forward with respect. Plenty more I'd like to say but I must go, perhaps I'll post again some time soon while people are still up for political debate .

I actually hoped you would not take offence to my posts, and I still hope you did not. I do enjoy a polite, civil discussion at any time, and many times have at least slightly altered my own viewpoints as a result. I enjoy your well thought out posts, whether or not I am in agreement is secondary. To clear up one issue that I find incredible to suddenly realize..the USA has had a minimum wage law in effect since before I was born. I find it just amazing that this would be "the biggest change"Europeans think we should make, and it would prove my point that many Europeans possibly condemn something they really have no real knowledge of.
In regards to the rest of the post, my own background is of course military, so I cannot speak for the civilian related technologies, but militarily, every advance the old Soviet Union made, or to be safe I will change that to 90% of their military advances, were made with plans/techs taken from the west, then tweaked to fit their system..I do not at all condemn this, as one does what one must, but everything from the space program(German engineering, like ours ) to the atomic bomb(taken from US- we even caught the spy who did this) to the MiG-29(copied off F-15 designs) and the list goes on and on. Civilian sector may as I said have been different, but I doubt it personally based on that their main emphasis was military R&D, and they still had few enough original ideas there.
Anyhow.. will stop chattering and get to work.
Ron

 

[General Kohl]

I would not say that canada is up there with the US in the space program, don't get me wrong because I do know that canada provides tech. and platforms to the international space programs, but I work with satellites in my daily job and no one tops the us in space funding

May be true, but US depends on Russia to launch its Satellites since the accident with Columbia.

 

[navman74]

And i believe you´ve been watching too much Fox News and Right wing propaganda, It is clear that The war on Iraq was made for economical reasons, not olny oil companies made large profits with it, but also most of BUSH´S 2000 ELECTION CAIMPAIGN like Halliburton, United Defense, The Carolean Group, Fox Media Group and many others that gained multi-millionaire contracts in "Iraq´s Rebuild Program" or gained money directly because of the "War Effort", also i would like to quote that your opnion about Hollywood is a little curious, since Michal Moore was not supported by ANY OF THE LARGE STUDIOS LIKE DYSNEY AND MGM and had to do his great documentary in an independent studio, Also need to say that Michael Moore is not a loser, he may be a little exagerated but most of his documentary is true and just show what the US Media didn´t due to it´s "Patriotic Internal Censorship"(Just call Fox News Public Relations Service or better, ask a journalist about their Patriotic Content Control)

Actually he, as I, have been on the ground in the mideast and seen the real story with no need to listen to an uninformed M.Moore, or for that matter news(any) who do all have their own agendas, right or left.
The fact of the matter is that Iraq was in clear violation of several UN provisions, this was never even a question, it was unanimously passed by Security Council, the only question was to allow more time for them, or not. My country grew tired of giving second chances, right or wrong. FYI large companies like the ones you mention, every election, donate huge sums to BOTH candidates..perhaps you should stop listening to propaganda yourself.
Saddam had in fact used WMD already, on his own people, (yes, WMD= chem,bio, and nuclear, not only nuke as so many people wrongly assume)
Saddam also imprisoned and executed countless thousands of his own people, as well as thousands of Kuwaitis when he invaded that country.

 

[navman74]

May be true, but US depends on Russia to launch its Satellites since the accident with Columbia.

Not sure where you get this, we do have a partnership with the Russians and EU as far as the Intl space station, but we still launch our own satellites, unless a company(since in this country they are FREE to make their own business deals) finds a better deal elsewhere.

 

[Communisto]

but there are worst breaches of the U.N all over the world, slavery, genocide and the likes and what ever happened to the search for al-qaeda? which now are half responsible for murdered school children in russia. I find it very suspicious that bushes military diriection switched so sudenly and strangely from al-qaeda to iraq. And about the democratic elections to take place in iraq this year, thats why the rebellion in iraq is going on. These people don't want american democracy they want their own iraqi way, clerical and maybe dictor-like in our views. The U.N shouldn't be worried about iraq as much as they should be worried about aids in africa and genocides in sudan and slavery in south-east asia. (I am not trying to offend you navman, i hold an enormous respect for you and others like you who have served there country in the military no matter for what cause, i salute you!)

 

[navman74]

but there are worst breaches of the U.N all over the world, slavery, genocide and the likes and what ever happened to the search for al-qaeda? which now are half responsible for murdered school children in russia. I find it very suspicious that bushes military diriection switched so sudenly and strangely from al-qaeda to iraq.

HMMM
You could say this gives us a very good forward base against terrorism in the region lol, though I don't see that as a reason. One thing for certain, many troops needed globally in the anti-terror war were stuck still defending Saudi and Kuwait in case Saddam slipped his leash again, now are freed of that. Also, the war is an anti-terror war, not only an anti- al Q war.
There are many terror organizations which received funding from Saddam, who paid cash bonuses to families of suicide bombers in Israel. All of these organizations need to and will be dealt with, not merely 1.
Real quick communisto, did you read what I mentioned re: making this scen match with the ww3?

 

[Communisto]

i did and im thinking of making another scenario, it already links to my wwiii scenario in the story. as for the other one i may do, does the rise of the Muslim India Entete sound interesting?

 

[navman74]

For the record also ,my own personal opinion is that the chechens should be dealt with harshly by the Russians. I hope my country will not stress "diplomacy" between the two as much as we have in the past.

 

[navman74]

i did and im thinking of making another scenario, it already links to my wwiii scenario in the story. as for the other one i may do, does the rise of the Muslim India Entete sound interesting?

Not bad

 

[navman74]

...... And about the democratic elections to take place in iraq this year, thats why the rebellion in iraq is going on. These people don't want american democracy they want their own iraqi way, clerical and maybe dictor-like in our views. The U.N shouldn't be worried about iraq as much as they should be worried about aids in africa and genocides in sudan and slavery in south-east asia. (I am not trying to offend you navman, i hold an enormous respect for you and others like you who have served there country in the military no matter for what cause, i salute you!)

Thanks, didnt offend me.. btw I agree with the latter part, there are many important issues..as for me, the issues you raise concern me as a human, but it is unlikely that military force can solve them, it can and is solving Iraq. the rest I leave to our able politicians(did I really say that??)
As for Iraq...the news tries hard to show an angle, it is only part of the story...very very many people there, at least 65-70%, do want the chance we gave them to determine their own fates. American soldiers are thanked still, every day on the streets, by grateful Iraqis. the trouble is because for some, ANY peace, puts them "out of business"..if your business is terror, you do not want peaceful, happy people. As a last note, most of the recent casualties inflicted by the insurgents, are themselves Iraqis, many of whom now are also fighting for the dream of a chance to determine their own fate.

 

[ashep5000]

To general kohl......it's obvious you are a socialist/left winger, so I will ask you this.....hows has lula or whatever his name is turned around the economy? Has he fulfilled his promises? I am only asking because I don't know, but i do know that he made lots of promises for getting his term.

I have returned recently from colombia, about four weeks ago, and the farc have torn that country apart...the only people who join them are the un-educated who don't know better or draftees. President Uribe is turning that country around and doing a damn fine job at it to. FARC personnel are disserting in large numbers, the economy is making a comeback, the only thing the FARC can do is car bombs in crowded cities. If this is a populist movement then how come they are setting bombs off in cities? Thats because communism is no longer about the people, it's about power. I have to respect communisto for only admiring the early forms of communism that don't deal with power. I might think they don't have a snowball's chance in hell but they are for our fellow man, not control. As far as depending on russia for launching into space you have got to be kidding me......do honestly think we only have one shuttle??? Because of our economic freedom we can afford many of these fine examples of american technological wonder.... I also agree with navman on chechen rebels.....let russia deal with it......not a problem of mine and the russians already seem to be handling it.

 

[General Kohl]

To general kohl......it's obvious you are a socialist/left winger, so I will ask you this.....hows has lula or whatever his name is turned around the economy? Has he fulfilled his promises? I am only asking because I don't know, but i do know that he made lots of promises for getting his term.

Answering your question, Lula has been in charge for less than 2 years(every ellected president in Brazil rules 4 years) but he already done what no other president did since Getulio Vargas, He managed to accomplish many of his promisses, he stopped the rising of unemployement and already reduced a significant ammount of the unemployment and made our country grow 4,5% form last year to now wich is a great thing since we were growing about 0.3 a year during our last presidency, he also managed to stabilize the political situation of our country and he is the most popular president since Getulio Vargas(1930-1945 and 1950-1954), He is becoming so popular among the brazilians that his party, PT, is according to most of the important political researchs going to get Mayors ellected in 17 of the 25 major cities of brazil instead of 8 and gonna jump from 112 mayors to about 500 if the ballots confirms the data provided by one of the most respected political magazine in Brazil, Epoca, Most of it is due to the great turnback that Lula made on our economy, expectations are again rising in Brazil thanks to his goverment.

PS:I´m very Nationalist and you are right, i have many Socialist tendencies.

 

[General Kohl]

As far as depending on russia for launching into space you have got to be kidding me......do honestly think we only have one shuttle???

No, i dont think you have only one shuttle, but after the Columbia Accident, President Bush made large cuts on NASA budget and temporary supended all tripulated flights to space.

 

[General Kohl]

I have returned recently from colombia, about four weeks ago, and the farc have torn that country apart...the only people who join them are the un-educated who don't know better or draftees. President Uribe is turning that country around and doing a damn fine job at it to. FARC personnel are disserting in large numbers, the economy is making a comeback, the only thing the FARC can do is car bombs in crowded cities. If this is a populist movement then how come they are setting bombs off in cities? Thats because communism is no longer about the people, it's about power.

The Colombian FARC has stopped been a Communist revolution for a long time, it has been twisted in a Drug Cartel´s Army, it has no ideological connection to communism anymore, it is just a Mercenary army working for Drug dealers.