32 European Civs

[Punkymonkey]

Well what about the Macedonians. They didn't consider themselves Greek until Alexander took over Greece. Thats something that bothers me since Alexander wasn't Greek and he's the leader of the Greeks in all the Civ games. And the Minoans and Mycenaeans should be separate because of the the evidence that they fought against each other and eventually the Mycenaeans took over the Minoans. Also there's so many civ's in ancient Ionia that never considered themselves to be Greek or Persian but their own civs like the Lydians, Phyrigians, Cappadocians, etc. This brings to bear the question, how can we call something a civilization if they don't accept that they are a unique civilization but we in the modern time group them into a civilization not understanding that they felt otherwise.

 

[LouLong]

Originally posted by ivory
Not only is Turkey a potential member of the EU, but they also participate in the Eurovision Song Contest. Now if that is not convincing, I don't know what is.

A debate can last a long time about that topic. But the question here is not whether Turks should become part of the EU but whether they are linked to Europe in that case I say YES definitely.

I mean Greeks, Bulgars, Romanians, Serbs, Hungarians and even Austrians realized that very "directly" a few, some until the XXth century.

Of course it is part of the Middle East too for some reasons but a large part of their inheritance is strongly European and they are quite different from Arabs, which explains why they could switch to European alphabet so quiclkly....

 

[stormbind]

Maybe there were 2 more civs in Sweden? Or maybe it's the same civ with two distinct eras of building practices?

I searched Google and found

The Swedish people call Santa tomte, and see him as a gnome who comes out from under the floor of the house or barn carrying his sack of gifts for them. He rides in a sleigh drawn by a goat.Santa Lucia day, the oldest daughter wears a wreath of seven candles on her head and servers a special meal of ham, fish, and rice pudding. God Jul!

This doesn't really contribute much, except it introduces a peculiar issue of how the gnome manages to come through the floor of a house if it is a tent

 

[LouLong]

Originally posted by Punkymonkey
Well what about the Macedonians. They didn't consider themselves Greek until Alexander took over Greece. Thats something that bothers me since Alexander wasn't Greek and he's the leader of the Greeks in all the Civ games. And the Minoans and Mycenaeans should be separate because of the the evidence that they fought against each other and eventually the Mycenaeans took over the Minoans. Also there's so many civ's in ancient Ionia that never considered themselves to be Greek or Persian but their own civs like the Lydians, Phyrigians, Cappadocians, etc. This brings to bear the question, how can we call something a civilization if they don't accept that they are a unique civilization but we in the modern time group them into a civilization not understanding that they felt otherwise.

Alexander was not typically Greek but Macedonia was considered hellenized even during the war of the Peloponesis.
What is more important he was the creator of the hellenistic kingdoms that brought Greek culture to a large part of the world.

If you focus on ethnicity, things get kind of difficult. Janissaries were mostly Greek or Slav troops, the Romans of the third century BC (Caracalla edict of 212) don't have much to do with the first members of the Republic.
If ou focus on struggles, your worst enemy is usually the person quite similar to you because he is "hunting" on the same territory as yours. Ex: the small German states within the Holy Roman Empire shared elements that made a civilization out of them all but to tell them so even druing the XVIIIth century might have been dangerous.

 

[Moulton]

How far back do you want to trace cultural groups?
Celts once populated much of Anatolia
Most European groups came from some other place -- Slav from the steppes, Turks from Mongolia (IIRC)
Etruscans were native -- but it is hard to identify them today.
Albans == Illirian were native, maybe
Basques were native

 

[dguichar]

Originally posted by calgacus

...
APPEAL: Please don't give a list of European states. So, don't lists the Belgians or the Andorrans. Civilizations, not states!!!
...

I posted this somewhere else... But as search function is disabled (why this happens so often, dear moderators?) i'm not able to find it.

Civilization comes from the latin word: civitas. And guess what... it means city. Then if it has at least a city it's a civilization.

Question is:
What makes a settlement a city? What makes it different from an outpost, hamlet, village or town?

Keep civilized

David

PS: I wish i get some answer now...

 

[mrtn]

Originally posted by stormbind
Maybe there were 2 more civs in Sweden? Or maybe it's the same civ with two distinct eras of building practices?

I searched Google and found
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Swedish people call Santa tomte, and see him as a gnome who comes out from under the floor of the house or barn carrying his sack of gifts for them. He rides in a sleigh drawn by a goat.Santa Lucia day, the oldest daughter wears a wreath of seven candles on her head and servers a special meal of ham, fish, and rice pudding. God Jul!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This doesn't really contribute much, except it introduces a peculiar issue of how the gnome manages to come through the floor of a house if it is a tent

And everything you find on the internet is correct, right?
Tomte is a sort of gnome, which in recent years have been merged with the Santa Claus tradition. 'Santa Lucia' should be Saint Lucia, it's nothing to do with Santa.
The Swedish where very much part of the Viking era, they just sailed east instead of west.
And of course the turks are european. Every people in europe is european.

 

[Punkymonkey]

Originally posted by LouLong


Alexander was not typically Greek but Macedonia was considered hellenized even during the war of the Peloponesis.
What is more important he was the creator of the hellenistic kingdoms that brought Greek culture to a large part of the world.

Actually the Greeks don't refer to the Macedonians as Hellenes, the Greek word for Greeks, in fact even Thrace was kinda iffy. If you look at the Macedonian culture and art the only thing that they share with the Greeks is mythology but everything else is totally different. Modern historians like to call Alexander a Greek cause it is simple and easy. Thats why historians say a lot of stuff, cause it's the simple and easy answer. No answer in history is simple and easy. Look who we get the source of Alexander being a Greek from. THE GREEKS!!! They are a proud people and being conquered by a non-Greek just wouldn't fly so the hellenized Alexander. Not the other way around. Sorry for the rant but as a student of classical archaeology i must rant or it gets pent up.

 

[Alone]

This is my "fair" offer for 12 EU nation for CIV III:

alredy exist
1.Germany
2.France
3.England
4.Russia
5.Spain
6.Vikings
7.Celts

new
8.AustroHungarian(one of the bigest EU states of all times, also reprezenting Cheh,Slovakia,Slovenia,Croatia,Bosnia and parts of Italy,Ukraine etc)
9.Serbia*(reprezenting South Slavens from ancient to modern times, archanemy of AustroHungaria)
10.Poland(reprezenting West Slavens as industrious and religios)
11.Flaman or Burs(reprezenting Benelux whit some ship as UU)
12.Daccia(as easteuropeans like todays Romania,Moldova)

+Mediterenian EU: Rome,Greece +maybe Byzant or Mlets.

What do YOU think about it?

*- naturly it's my favorite.

 

[ivory]

Did you mean to post a reply in this thread which has exactly the same title. I think you might as well, because they are discussing this very topic now.
I think you - and all the others on that thread - are forgotting the Swiss, who have kept aloof from everything and everyone around them for a very long time.

 

[Alone]

I wantned to send that as an answer to calgacus and his "32 eu civ", but i'm rookey and made mistake. Somebody tell me how to transfer this there?

 

[Turner]

The mods'll have to move it over.
And moved it has.

If you look at the bottom of your screen, there is a 'quick reply' box, and you can type your reply in here, then hit the submit reply button under it.

Or, after the last post, you could hit the 'post reply' button. This is right next to the new thread button. Perhaps you hit new thread instead of post reply? Doesn't matter. But click on this, and you will get a reply box up with more options than the quick reply box offers.

Lastly, if you look at the top of a particular post, you will see two buttons on the right side, edit and quote. Edit is for your own posts, and unless you're a mod you can't edit other peoples posts. If you click on quote, you will see that particular post, in a reply box with the quoting code around it. This is so that you can refer to a post if it no longer the last post, of if you just want people to know exactly what it is you're talking about.

Welcome to CFC!

 

[Grille]

Alone on CFC... fine name!
Welcome!

Log on CFC.
Enter calgacus' thread "32 eu...". Then either press the "post reply" button (at top or bottom of a thread) or type sth in that little "quick reply" box at the bottom of the
thread. Click submit reply. There you go! You may also hit the "quote" button above some poster's reply, useful when you want to refer to that posts content with your answer.

...and yeah, the "edit" button may be useful to edit your post - e.g. when you've been beaten by Turner...

 

[sgrig]

Originally posted by calgacus
But, here is a tree:

• 
  Mycenaeans & Minoans > Greeks > Byzantines > modern Greeks
  
  Romans> Western Christendom > French, Spanish, Germans, Poles, Scots, Magyars, etc
  ............> Byzantium > Orthodox Slavs >Russians,Bulgarians,Serbs
  
  Celts > Scots, Irish, Gauls, Britons
  
  Germanic > Franks > Germans (incl.Austrians), Netherlanders, Swiss
  ...............> Saxons > English
  ...............> Goths
  ...............> Scandinavians
  
  Etruscans > Romans > etc
  
  Illyrians > Albanians
  
  Slavs > Russians, Serbs, Poles, Czechs, etc
  
  Balts > Prussians, Pommeranians, Letts, Lithuanians, etc
  
  Steppe Nomads > Magyars, Huns, Avars, Bulgars, Turks
  
  Iberians > Basques
  
  

The Slavs should really be subdivided further into "Eastern" and "Western".

Eastern Slavs - Russians, Serbs, Bulgarians, Ukrainians, Belarussians

Western Slavs - Polish, Czechs, Slovaks, Slovenes, Croats

Main distinction between these two groups is religion and alphabet. Eastern Slavs use the Cyrillic alphabet and and are Orthodox Christian, Western Slavs use the Latin alphabet and are either Catholic or Protestant.

 

[Alone]

Thanks to Turner_727 and Grille there' s my "fair" option:

Alredy exist nation: Germany,France,England,Russia,Spain,Vikings,Celts+

8.AustroHungaria(One of the bigest nation in EU of all the times + enclude Cheh,Slovak,Slovenian,Croatian,Bosnian and parts of Italy,Ukraine ...)
9.Serbia(reprezenting South Slovens from aincent to modern time, and was archanemy of AustroHungaria)
10.Poland(as West Slovens reprezenter and industrious and religios nation)
11.Flamans or Burs(like todays Benelux nation whit some ship as UU)
12.Daccia (eastEU -Look like todays Romania,Moldova)

EU mediterenian:
Rome,Greece + Maybe Byzants and-or Mlets

 

[spaps]

Originally posted by calgacus
But, here is a tree:

• 
  Germanic > Franks > Germans (incl.Austrians), Netherlanders, Swiss
  ...............> Saxons > English
  ...............> Goths
  ...............> Scandinavians

...

What do the Italianspeaking, Frenchspeaking and Rätoromanischspeaking Swiss people think of this?

 

[John-LP]

This is all futal. This is like trying to define an American by culture, race, and language.

US of A:
77.1% "White", whatever that means, it lumps European descent in one group which is ridiculous.
Major "white" groups being English, German, Italian, and even Hispanics (Spanish, Mexican, Puerto Rican, etc)
12.9% Black
4.2% Asian
AmeriIndian and Alaska Native 1.5%
Native Hawaiian and other Pacific Islander 0.3%
Other 4%

I mean really, it`s one hell of a maze to try and define any group.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Other 4%

I racked my brains, but who are they? Arabs? Aboriginies? Martians?

 

[Xen]

French men....they are... differnt

no, it would probabley mean trans ethnics (mixed), or, very unlikelly, people of arabic descent

 

[Akka]

Originally posted by calgacus
Romans> Western Christendom > French, Spanish, Germans, Poles, Scots, Magyars, etc
Celts > Scots, Irish, Gauls, Britons
Germanic > Franks > Germans (incl.Austrians), Netherlanders, Swiss

Just to make a precision : France comes as much from Franks and Gauls than from Romans.