3rd and 4th Unique Components for VP - Official thread 88.10

[Enrico Swagolo]

You’re basically advocating for giving Germany Israel’s UA by way of a Pictish warrior... no thanks.

Not really, I checked your Israel and they only convert camps. Slagga can convert any barbie anywhere, just not always.

Peoria gives 10 culture on pillage. I agree I’m not overly concerned with Denmark right now. However, with how Denmark is under a lot of scrutiny, and the pillage mechanic keeps changing, I would rather keep clear of it.

The AI understands to beeline for techs with uniques, and I’m not too concerned about iron working’s more niche qualities.

Byzantium’s not exactly a fair comparison; she only gets basilica in late classical. A bad map roll with 1-2 other faith civs, and someone else getting a decent pantheon or faith resource start could mean that all religions are taken by early classical.

I think to soften things, we could give the TO a free barracks instead of armour, and increase the base faith of the TO to +4. That would give a solid 6 faith per turn if you rush it; that’s huge. Regardless of your pantheon/resource options, rushing the bottom of the tree for a guaranteed 6 faith per turn would secure you a religion in most situations.

Just don't forget to remove TOs Barracks dependency and it'll be fine I guess.

 

[civplayer33]

I think to soften things, we could give the TO a free barracks instead of armour, and increase the base faith of the TO to +4. That would give a solid 6 faith per turn if you rush it; that’s huge. Regardless of your pantheon/resource options, rushing the bottom of the tree for a guaranteed 6 faith per turn would secure you a religion in most situations.

Is that plus your earlier idea of

No change to barracks
Scrap chapter promotion
Move TO forward
faith on kills, but just in the city, probably just 20, scaling
-5% population needed to reformation

or do you want to replace the faith on kills with it?

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

It already has 3 Faith, so it's probably not taking the kill yields away. I'd prefer if it kept the Armoury on build instead of easily accessible Barracks, though, but maybe that'd be OP if the building's available earlier.

 

[pineappledan]

Just don't forget to remove TOs Barracks dependency and it'll be fine I guess

Definitely. No barracks requirement and free barracks instead.

or do you want to replace the faith on kills with it?

No, the base TO gives 3 faith; I’m just suggesting I will increase that to +4. No change to any of that other stuff

It already has 3 Faith, so it's probably not taking the kill yields away. I'd prefer if it kept the Armoury on build instead of easily accessible Barracks, though, but maybe that'd be OP if the building's available earlier.

The armory would have to be dropped, definitely. We can’t have a free armory coming that early.

 

[infidel88]

Homestead has a countersynergy problem, that's for sure. I don't want to just add some base yields to it, or it will start to overlap with Ducal Stable. I also don't like the idea of moving it forward, it doesn't really fix the issue.
Some alternatives to the +25% border Growth.

• 10% of food is carried over on citizen birth (they were farms, after all)
• +1 to Farms (Don't want to stack too much with the normal bonuses of Stables, otheriwse I would extend this bonus to Pastures as well.)
• 15 on border expansion ('Free land'. So America gets gold from natural growth and production from purchase. Overlaps with cathedral, and sort of crowds into Russia's niche, so I'm not too hot on this one)
• Cities with a Homestead can build Pioneers. +25% Production towards Workers and Settlers in City (unlock Pioneers a full era early. Everyone was clamouring to give America that settler flavor)

Pioneers are cool if you play on huge maps I guess. I never do, so by the time pioneers come into play, on standard and large most cities are already settled. Plus pioneer cost is just so damn high...
How about -25% purchase cost of tiles? It's synergetic and I don't think any UB has it.

 

[pineappledan]

Pioneers are cool if you play on huge maps I guess. I never do, so by the time pioneers come into play, on standard and large most cities are already settled. Plus pioneer cost is just so damn high...
How about -25% purchase cost of tiles? It's synergetic and I don't think any UB has it.

Yes... This is why the suggestion is to bring pioneers a full era earlier with homestead and reduce their build by 25%. Failing that, America would enjoy the reduction on workers at the very least.

As for plot purchase price, America already has -50% price in their UA, and this stacks with Ankor Wat’s -25% reduction. That’s too much, unless you’re suggesting we nerf the UA and transfer some of its power into the UB

 

[FoxOfWar]

I think early Pioneers work quite well, and are pretty flavorful too. Far as Teutonic Order goes, haven't really played enough to have a solid opinion yet.

 

[infidel88]

I'm one of those people who always buy workers anyway so its not relevant to me. And I don't think I'm the only one. 150 in times when you earn 500 or so per turn is simply not worth the hammers.

Stacking is multiplicative and now in current having -50% UA, -25% angkor and -15% itsikushima shrine wonder I can't say it's much of an overkill. It's just supercheap and quick way to get hammers. Plus, given how expensive opponent or CS tiles are, every % matters

One problem I see is - you don't really need that many homesteads in your empire. It's kinda like heroic epic - once you build it, you try to pump all your melee units from that city.

 

[pineappledan]

Stacking is multiplicative and now in current having -50% UA, -25% angkor and -15% itsikushima shrine wonder I can't say it's much of an overkill. It's just supercheap and quick way to get hammers. Plus, given how expensive opponent or CS tiles are, every % matters

This ignores that doubling down or simply repeating an existing bonus is poor design. I'm not interested in just iterating on what America already has in their existing kit.
The automatic tile claim and increased bonuses on horse/sheep/cattle/bison is going to remain. That should hopefully give people reason enough to build Homesteads.
What about an additional yield from Birth? Maybe 15 on Citizen Birth, scaling with era?

Per my other comment on not double-dipping on traits. I'm thinking of offloading Persia's GA length bonus entirely onto the Pairidaeza. I was thinking we could do 3 things to compensate:

• Bring Pairidaeza forward 1 tech to Currency and reduce cost to 200 to match other things at that level
• Increase the Gold to GAP conversion to 15% (up from 10%) on the UA
• increase the scaling on Satrap's court to 1/ for every 4 (up from per 5)

Thoughts?

 

[infidel88]

First of all - I have full faith in you. Having said that - do you check other mods? Like community events? Seems like American events puts emphasis on pastures and villages. If that's the case - how about some bonus to villages related to pastures? Like +1 per adjacent pasture and +1 to pasture per adjacent village? I was also thinking about free worker upon finishing homestead, but this is too weak, after all it's just free 150.

 

[Jarula]

Why not bring back biergarten for Germany

 

[civplayer33]

Re: TO and free Barracks: I just noticed that the Statue of Zeus, which becomes available the tech before, already gives a free Barracks...maybe TO should give an Armory after all? Or if that's really too much, possibly a temple (normally available in Classical Era at Philosophy)? Otherwise it essentially nerfs the Statue of Zeus for Germany...

Edit: just saw that free Temple is given from Oracle; it would still be better since at least it's a more advanced building and Oracle is a ways off, but I guess we could think of something different still...maybe a free Arena?

Edit2: another idea: since the historical Teutonic Order helped establish hospitals, maybe we could simply give it a +10 or +15 heal for units stationed in the city it is built in instead? Or possibly a +5 heal in all cities with a Barracks?

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I suggest Pairidaeza to not require Aqueduct anymore if it's pulled back. It makes little sense for a building to have a requisite building that is on the same technology row in another spot, and that'd make the UB less painful to deal with.

Re: TO and free Barracks: I just noticed that the Statue of Zeus, which becomes available the tech before, already gives a free Barracks...maybe TO should give an Armory after all? Or if that's really too much, possibly a temple (normally available in Classical Era at Philosophy)? Otherwise it essentially nerfs the Statue of Zeus for Germany...

Edit: just saw that free Temple is given from Oracle; it would still be better since at least it's a more advanced building and Oracle is a ways off, but I guess we could think of something different still...maybe a free Arena?

Edit2: another idea: since the historical Teutonic Order helped establish hospitals, maybe we could simply give it a +10 or +15 heal for units stationed in the city it is built in instead? Or possibly a +5 heal in all cities with a Barracks?

Incan new UB recently got changed to give a heal to the units stationed in the city, so I think it's a bad idea. I agree free Barracks will not be perfect considering they're available before, but Aztec UNW also gives a Temple which is earlier that Oracle gives so it's probably not an issue.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Can the TO have a reduced or removed pop requirement? I copied the sql text from the master branch, I rushed it ASAP with Stonehenge into SoZ because it seems powerful in this case, but it says I need 10 more pop even at 4 cities. By the time I have enough citizens, it'll be too late.

 

[pineappledan]

Having said that - do you check other mods? Like community events? Seems like American events puts emphasis on pastures and villages. If that's the case - how about some bonus to villages related to pastures? Like +1 per adjacent pasture and +1 to pasture per adjacent village? I was also thinking about free worker upon finishing homestead, but this is too weak, after all it's just free 150.

Once again, you're suggesting I overstack on the same thing other people have done. I am more inclined to move in the opposite direction if at all possible. You're also asking for the impossible. I can't set adjacencies on pre-existing improvements via a building. I've added the 15 on citizen birth for now.

Re: TO and free Barracks: I just noticed that the Statue of Zeus, which becomes available the tech before, already gives a free Barracks...maybe TO should give an Armory after all?

Assyria's royal library gives a free library, and it arrives on the same tech as the Great Library. I don't see a problem here. If you want to go for both then just build the TO in a different city and get 2 free barracks.

I suggest Pairidaeza to not require Aqueduct anymore if it's pulled back. It makes little sense for a building to have a requisite building that is on the same technology row in another spot, and that'd make the UB less painful to deal with.

Good point. I'll make that change.

Can the TO have a reduced or removed pop requirement? I copied the sql text from the master branch, I rushed it ASAP with Stonehenge into SoZ because it seems powerful in this case, but it says I need 10 more pop even at 4 cities. By the time I have enough citizens, it'll be too late.

The national pop requirement is 15. This is the same as the Assyrian Royal Library which arrives at the same tech level, and the same as the base Heroic Epic. I'll keep it where it is for now since it seems that is consistent with everything else in VP.

I remember I had to set Israel's Unique wonder to 7 national pop . But that was because it arrives at late ancient, so it only takes 3 techs to reach it.

 

[Jarula]

Oh by the way are we going to do enginseers civs?

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I'm playing with TO as it is in the sql/luas on github and it definitely is better. I played with an arguably suboptimal start (fishing resources, so as far as you can get from iron working) and it worked. God of Sea meant my cities grew very fast this time, so after Trapping > Fishing > Pottery I rushed Iron Working and I could build it instantly. Aggression, barbies and rushed Dominance meant I teched pretty fast so that proved not to be a problem as well. Alas, Aztecs decided to go Authority OCC without expanding or attacking anything so they just sit on their one bad city several policies and techs behind me and the Maya while I was so aggressive the Maya too are irrelevant now so it's slightly boring. The UNW definitely doesn't feel OP, it's pretty late for a thing that gives pretty much only Faith and Morale. It's nothing special and I feel I'd rather have Stele, Basilica or Bazaar, but it gets the joj done now.

Anyway, Monolithic Church. Anyone played Ethiopia? I feel this UI is too good. The Culture, Faith and Production it provides is pretty much unparalleled. Considering how fast Ethiopia techs and its guaranteed religion, it feels too good. I don't want it nerfed hard, but I feel like it could use a reduction of at least one yield, like -1C, F or P. It shouldn't be better than the Kasbah which is seemingly meant to be carrying Morocco. Maybe MC is not that broken, but it feels like it's in a league of its own right now.
In addition, I stiill don't like the Waag. I don't like how defensive it is - that by definition makes it situational because you are not always under attack. What truly matters is yields, and it lacks them. It's nice to have 10 Defense and an easier time killing spies, but it's slightly boring nevertheless. It makes you a tough nut to crack, but it doesn't do much else. I like how it costs less, but comparing it to some of the toys other civs get to play with, it's just not very attractive.

 

[pineappledan]

Oh by the way are we going to do enginseers civs?

I did a 4UC of Nubia, but I have no plans to do any others

I'm playing with TO as it is in the sql/luas on github and it definitely is better. I played with an arguably suboptimal start (fishing resources, so as far as you can get from iron working) and it worked. God of Sea meant my cities grew very fast this time, so after Trapping > Fishing > Pottery I rushed Iron Working and I could build it instantly. Aggression, barbies and rushed Dominance meant I teched pretty fast so that proved not to be a problem as well. Alas, Aztecs decided to go Authority OCC without expanding or attacking anything so they just sit on their one bad city several policies and techs behind me and the Maya while I was so aggressive the Maya too are irrelevant now so it's slightly boring. The UNW definitely doesn't feel OP, it's pretty late for a thing that gives pretty much only Faith and Morale. It's nothing special and I feel I'd rather have Stele, Basilica or Bazaar, but it gets the joj done now.

Glad it's working out. The most powerful part is the -5% on reformation, which you didn't hit on. Just want to make sure u aren't selling the UNW short.

Anyway, Monolithic Church. Anyone played Ethiopia? I feel this UI is too good. The Culture, Faith and Production it provides is pretty much unparalleled. Considering how fast Ethiopia techs and its guaranteed religion, it feels too good. I don't want it nerfed hard, but I feel like it could use a reduction of at least one yield, like -1C, F or P. It shouldn't be better than the Kasbah which is seemingly meant to be carrying Morocco. Maybe MC is not that broken, but it feels like it's in a league of its own right now.
In addition, I stiill don't like the Waag. I don't like how defensive it is - that by definition makes it situational because you are not always under attack. What truly matters is yields, and it lacks them. It's nice to have 10 Defense and an easier time killing spies, but it's slightly boring nevertheless. It makes you a tough nut to crack, but it doesn't do much else. I like how it costs less, but comparing it to some of the toys other civs get to play with, it's just not very attractive

Once the MonoChurch unlocks, you will probably have completed an ancient policy tree and founded a religion:
That's 231
If you managed to enhance at that point, that's 332

In comparison to the Chateau (332), which unlocks at the same tech level, the yields are perhaps a little stronger, but that complete lack of food on hills can really hurt. Also, keep in mind that Chateau and Kasbah give defense, and Kasbah even damages enemies.

Also keep in mind the yields from Monochurch are contingent on you spreading your religion to the working city and managing to reform. I would maybe consider axing 1 faith, but this is just theorycrafting and I haven't had an evidence-based complain about Ethiopia yet.

 

[pineappledan]

I just got creamed in a game with Babylon and I think it at least partially has to do with the Etemenanki being kinda bad. The instant yields on purchase are very hard to raise above 10-15 per purchase, which is incredibly low, especially once Banks come online.

I'm increasing the bonus to 25% of / output, increasing base yields to 442, and increasing the bonus to monument to +2

 

[infidel88]

Shouldn't Iron chariot be obsolete earlier than at Metallurgy? Everyone has tercios, curassiers, I have minutemen and Assyria is running around with (surprisingly strong) iron chariots.