[Extension] 3rd and 4th Unique Components for VP - Official thread 88.10

[Hinin]

Spoiler Numerous answers :

I haven't gotten much of an opportunity to play with this mod yet

... Well, playing something a bit is always a good way to make an informed opinion...

Would you consider buffing it +2 City Defense for each World Wonder or adding National Wonders to the list?

Not a bad idea, but I'll play India first.

City-exclusive would be interesting as well, and unique.

By city-exclusive, do you mean that the CP bonus only affects the city in which is Qila is ? If that's the case, then the Qila already does that. Sorry if I misunderstood you.

I should tell you I haven't actually played the Iroquois in VP, or even in vanilla for that matter. Part of the reason for that is to me, on paper, the Iroquois look to be one of the weakest Civ's there is, there was, and ever will be. Oddly enough though the AI always does pretty damn well with this civ.

I'll be frank here... Paper theories have limited utility, and so playing a civ is always the best way to know if it is really weak or not. In vanilla CivV, the Longhouse were better than Workshops when there were 6 forests/jungles or more worked by the city (which is not always simple, as we know), and so the Iroquois were considered one of the weakest civs, but in VP the Iroquois are definitively one of my top pics if I want to play defensive/wide. They gain gold and avoid isolation unhappiness in the early game thanks to the forest city connections, they usually have the most balanced food/production ratio (which is a very good thing if you want to avoid happiness problems) and are quite a polyvalent and dangerous civilization.

Overall though, for a national wonder, this looks pretty weak and doesn't do much to push them towards a diplomatic victory. The promotion itself, as far as I know, wouldn't contribute anything and +2 great diplomat points isn't very noticeable in the grand scheme of things.

Well the Sachem's council brings quite a few things making diplomacy easier for the Iroquois in the early game :
- it greatly diminishes the upkeep cost of Chanceries (so having one in each city becomes evident)
- it offers a large amount of papers in the early game, allowing the Iroquois player to produce several diplomatic units at the same time (it means you'll lose less influence with CStates before allying them, so that they provide you bonus for more turns)
- giving you more GDiplomat points and civil servant specialists, it allows you to produce GDiplomats a lot faster than other civs (and in a reliable way, not like Arabia), and these GDiplomats, when founding Embassies, will give yields to your capital (knowing that these yields will increase throughout the game).

It is right to say that later the effects of the Sachem's council are less noticable, but in the early game it is quite a powerful National wonder if used well. It doesn't make the DVictory a lot easier for the Iroquois, but it allows them to reliably ally CStates (which means a lot of free yields) and compensate for the yields they may lack (science/culture/gold).

4. Japan/Brazil/Others: I'm not so sure it's such a good idea stacking bonuses like this. These civs, especially Brazil, already have amazing tourism output. This applies to other Civs as well, particularly science ones, and science at least has an easy catch-up mechanic. Most of the civs here got something that would push them towards another victory they otherwise might not go for, or something to make one of the victory they could go for more viable. Some of them however did not.

The mod brings a lot of ways for civilizations to gain more culture, so CVictory is more difficult. Because of this, civilizations which are usually good at producing tourism gained additionnal tourism sources. When playing, you'll see.

6. Ottoman Bombard: Essentially a super unit that's very strong for it's time though kinda like above, I'm a little worried about when it upgrades. It would appear it keeps the Sahi Topu promotion so I assume the idea is, for two units only, in exchange for the Sahi Topu promotion you get two other promotions. I generally like mechanics that promote additional interaction but I'm not convinced that's a fair trade. Maybe it is on the bombard, when at it's base it's nearly 50% (?) stronger then cannons and comes one tech earlier, kind of disturbing actually, but beyond that I think one might be tempted to scrap those two units for regular siege units that aren't as prone to being one-shotted due to the loss of health from firing.

The Ottoman Bombard isn't made to replace the Cannon, more to complement it when facing heavily defended cities in the late-medieval era : since its damages are so high, the chances it kills the garrison of the city is non-negligible, and then other units can inflict more damage to the city. This unit won't win battles for you, but, if one city resists you even after you killed the surrounding troops, this unit will make the job. Don't bring it to the front lines, keep it as a support unit and only use it when siege units can't do enough damages (this unit is ideal against tall, turtling opponents).
Moreover, you must take into account the fact that the Ottomans can produce siege units much more quickly than other civs, so the increased cost of the Bombard is actually not such a downside.

7. Babylon Sabum Kabitum: Is the legacy promotion lost on upgrade? Because that's 75% combat strength at level 15. 40% at 10. With that kind of scaling their spearmen will overshadow anything else they might be able to field.

EnricoSwagolo actually also had concerns over the combat bonus the "Legacy" promotion brings, since it is not lost on upgrade, but keeping a unit alive long enough so that it becomes level 10 or 15 should be rewarded, no (it's not like you'll have dozens of these) ?

3. China: I feel I have to mention this especially because of 2 up there. You thought China was crazy before? You ain't seen nothing yet!

China has been a snowbally civ for quite a long time, and its new unique components only contribute in a minor way in its success (the UA does all the job). To tell the truth, China suffers a bit more with this modmod, since it must deal with a lot more early game unique units, and so has a tendency in my games to get bullied quite often.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I haven't gotten much of an opportunity to play with this mod yet but I've scoured over all the additions quite a bit and I'd like to raise a few concerns.

1. India's Mughal Fort: '+1 City Defense for every World Wonder built in the City'. I was surprised when India didn't retain more of it's increased defense capabilities, and am glad to see it has returned in some form. Now this applies for all world wonders in all cities correct? Meaning if you have all your wonders in your capital any city with this building will recieve the additional city strength? Comparatively speaking this ability seems pretty situational. It requires alot more effort (and luck) relative to Greece or Netherlands UB, and due to the limited amount of wonders in regular games this ability is unlikely to scale as high. Would you consider buffing it +2 City Defense for each World Wonder or adding National Wonders to the list? City-exclusive would be interesting as well, and unique.

2. Iroquois Sachem's Council: I'm curious as to what the main goal of this UB was. It looks pretty solid in generating additional resources for the capital and afaik is a unique mechanic in VP. I should tell you I haven't actually played the Iroquois in VP, or even in vanilla for that matter. Part of the reason for that is to me, on paper, the Iroquois look to be one of the weakest Civ's there is, there was, and ever will be. Oddly enough though the AI always does pretty damn well with this civ. Though really, they have a good early military advantage and beyond until you deny them forest and jungle. Outside of that they don't have a clear preferred victory like most of the other civs do. Now despite replacing a diplomatic building, between the additional culture from the building itself, the potential of the promotion, and their other UB, I could maybe see them going for a cultural victory. Overall though, for a national wonder, this looks pretty weak and doesn't do much to push them towards a diplomatic victory. The promotion itself, as far as I know, wouldn't contribute anything and +2 great diplomat points isn't very noticeable in the grand scheme of things. Keep in mind the Iroquois, outside of a little extra food, don't have anything to contribute to the generation of great people, which I would say both culture and diplomacy is/can be pretty reliant on. Thoughts?

7. Babylon Sabum Kabitum: Is the legacy promotion lost on upgrade? Because that's 75% combat strength at level 15. 40% at 10. With that kind of scaling their spearmen will overshadow anything else they might be able to field.

1. Maybe it could include national wonders but it being +2 would probably break it.
2.Sachem's fine, it has a second slot and gives a bit of yields per turn to the capital every embassy. It's fine, but I think it could be unlocked earlier so you have a better chance at snagging the Roman Forum, rather than being on Writing as it is
7.I agree, it is totally broken if you keep the guy alive. Best unit in the game by far.

EnricoSwagolo actually also had concerns over the combat bonus the "Legacy" promotion brings, since it is not lost on upgrade, but keeping a unit alive long enough so that it becomes level 10 or 15 should be rewarded, no (it's not like you'll have dozens of these) ?.

That's a bad argument, a level 10/15 unit has so many promotions (with +CS, +whatever) it is hard to kill off by definition, and Sabum gets there much faster to begin with. Just the level up is a great reward and a power increase, Legacy takes it to the extreme with the values it presents while simultaneously being AI unfriendly.

 

[adan_eslavo]

v32 out. Enjoy!
Also v2 of MUCfVP-EE compatibility patch is out with Carolean fix.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Is Coimbra meant to provide less Culture per technology than regular Oxford? I'm playing on 31.2 and it says it gives 50, whereas regular one grants 75.

 

[pineappledan]

India's Mughal Fort: '+1 City Defense for every World Wonder built in the City'. I was surprised when India didn't retain more of it's increased defense capabilities, and am glad to see it has returned in some form. Now this applies for all world wonders in all cities correct? Meaning if you have all your wonders in your capital any city with this building will recieve the additional city strength? Comparatively speaking this ability seems pretty situational. It requires alot more effort (and luck) relative to Greece or Netherlands UB, and due to the limited amount of wonders in regular games this ability is unlikely to scale as high. Would you consider buffing it +2 City Defense for each World Wonder or adding National Wonders to the list? City-exclusive would be interesting as well, and unique.

The Qila only gives +1 in its own city for every world wonder in that city only. World wonders on empire do not add defense to all cities, or else you would likely have India with +10-20 in all cities, which would be pretty broken. I had considered extending it to national wonders as well, but I haven't gotten a single report from anyone actually playing as India since the change was made to Qila, so I will hold off.

Also a general note that not all bonuses are created equal. It was never my intention to have Qila give a ton of defense, since the defense to culture conversion is the building’s main benefit

Iroquois Sachem's Council: I'm curious as to what the main goal of this UB was. It looks pretty solid in generating additional resources for the capital and afaik is a unique mechanic in VP. I should tell you I haven't actually played the Iroquois in VP, or even in vanilla for that matter. Part of the reason for that is to me, on paper, the Iroquois look to be one of the weakest Civ's there is, there was, and ever will be. Oddly enough though the AI always does pretty damn well with this civ. Though really, they have a good early military advantage and beyond until you deny them forest and jungle. Outside of that they don't have a clear preferred victory like most of the other civs do. Now despite replacing a diplomatic building, between the additional culture from the building itself, the potential of the promotion, and their other UB, I could maybe see them going for a cultural victory. Overall though, for a national wonder, this looks pretty weak and doesn't do much to push them towards a diplomatic victory. The promotion itself, as far as I know, wouldn't contribute anything and +2 great diplomat points isn't very noticeable in the grand scheme of things. Keep in mind the Iroquois, outside of a little extra food, don't have anything to contribute to the generation of great people, which I would say both culture and diplomacy is/can be pretty reliant on. Thoughts?

The goal of the building was to tilt Iroquois a bit diplomatic, since Iroquois don't really have a preferred win condition outside perhaps domination. The Sachem's Council emphasizes Great Diplomat generation, which is a unique emphasis for any civ (other diplo civs give bonuses for quests, passive rewards, or influence decay). This unique wonder gives Iroquois 3x the paper and 2x the GD generation for a full era, until other civs get chanceries. This puts Iroquois 2 embassies ahead of all other civs by medieval, which is a massive head-start on world congress. It also gives Iroquois a reward for placing embassies which they can use in earlier eras. Other civs don't receive any benefit from embassies prior to renaissance.

I can't see any way that this building would tilt Iroquois to a CV, since the Sachems council does not generate any tourism. The culture on the building, and the yields received via embassies may make other civs' CVs more difficult though. See Hinin's comment above.

Ottoman Bombard: Essentially a super unit that's very strong for it's time though kinda like above, I'm a little worried about when it upgrades. It would appear it keeps the Sahi Topu promotion so I assume the idea is, for two units only, in exchange for the Sahi Topu promotion you get two other promotions. I generally like mechanics that promote additional interaction but I'm not convinced that's a fair trade. Maybe it is on the bombard, when at it's base it's nearly 50% (?) stronger then cannons and comes one tech earlier, kind of disturbing actually, but beyond that I think one might be tempted to scrap those two units for regular siege units that aren't as prone to being one-shotted due to the loss of health from firing.

None of the unique promotions for the Bombard stay on upgrade. The bombard is a unique unit class, so it wouldn't make much sense for any of its stuff to stay on upgrade.

Babylon Sabum Kabitum: Is the legacy promotion lost on upgrade? Because that's 75% combat strength at level 15. 40% at 10. With that kind of scaling their spearmen will overshadow anything else they might be able to field.

This gets brought up again and again, but I wonder how many of you have ever actually had a melee unit higher than lvl 10 before? I have only ever accomplished that feat once, with Aztec Jaguars in vanilla. The Jaguar's earlier appearance, heal on kills, and 2 other free promotions, combined with stupid unit handling by the AI allowed me to keep units alive that long. I have to wonder if we are only debating hypotheticals here? This 1 unit gets more from levels than other units, but for a base unique unit, it's actually pretty bad. In my own game with 4UC Babylon, I have had tremendous difficulty keeping my SK alive, but that could be because I had Sweden as a neighbor.

Venice: I'm a little confused here. So they have 2 naval range units in the same tech? I imagine then they upgrade into the same unit. I really can't speak on whether or not you'd want to use both of them until I actually play them, but, and correct me if I'm wrong, you'd be encouraged to go with the Fusta for the potential carry over of the promotion no? The other ship in comparison doesn't have anything going for it other then being stronger at the time. That seems a little off putting.

The Fusta is much weaker, however, barely any stronger than a Dromon/Penteconter. Also, all your old penteconters will upgrade into G. Galleasses, not Fustas. The Fusta has a promotion that will stay on upgrade, yes, but the two ships provide very different levels of power. A weak fusta also costs the same amount of military supply as a G. Galleass, so you will have to decide what is more valuable when building units: military supply/raw power vs. gold maintenance/speed

I wanted to something a bit different with the Venetian unique unit, because:

a) Venice doesn't have a unique military unit in base VP, so this gives it 2 like everyone else. Sort of.
b) Venice invented the Galleass, but the galleass is already a base unit, so just giving them a unique unit which is "a bigger galleass*TM" is kinda boring
c) I liked the idea of having one unique unit which is actually a split.​

Is Coimbra meant to provide less Culture per technology than regular Oxford? I'm playing on 31.2 and it says it gives 50, whereas regular one grants 75.

This is what happens when the wiki isn't updated. I'll fix the text so it's up to the right level. the code is set to match whatever the Oxford wonder gives, so it's already giving the 75 culture, it's just the text that is wrong.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

No Latifundium buff? I'm also not seeing it in the tech tree anymore nor when hovering over terrain as Rome with civilians/units

 

[pineappledan]

The latifundium was already buffed last month. The build time has been lowered

 

[Barak]

is v32 fully compatible with changes made in VP 5-20?

 

[pineappledan]

is v32 fully compatible with changes made in VP 5-20?

Yes. The newest 4UC patch should be played with VP 5-20. It contains a fix for the problem which caused 5-20 to disable all the 4UC text.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Latifundium didn't appear on tech, worker stuff, I researched Calendar where it used to be and I still cannot get it up. Made a hitgub as well

EDIT reinstalled the mod and it appears

 

[documental]

The Qila only gives +1 in its own city for every world wonder in that city only. World wonders on empire do not add defense to all cities, or else you would likely have India with +10-20 in all cities, which would be pretty broken. I had considered extending it to national wonders as well, but I haven't gotten a single report from anyone actually playing as India since the change was made to Qila, so I will hold off.

Also a general note that not all bonuses are created equal. It was never my intention to have Qila give a ton of defense, since the defense to culture conversion is the building’s main benefit

Oh so it already is city exclusive? That lends itself as a bonus that only the capital will make much use out of. 1 defense isn't high enough of a bonus to make me consider placing a wonder else where (which is what I meant when I said unique, because I don't believe any mechanic in the game actively encourages that) but maybe that wasn't the point.

The goal of the building was to tilt Iroquois a bit diplomatic, since Iroquois don't really have a preferred win condition outside perhaps domination. The Sachem's Council emphasizes Great Diplomat generation, which is a unique emphasis for any civ (other diplo civs give bonuses for quests, passive rewards, or influence decay). This unique wonder gives Iroquois 3x the paper and 2x the GD generation for a full era, until other civs get chanceries. This puts Iroquois 2 embassies ahead of all other civs by medieval, which is a massive head-start on world congress. It also gives Iroquois a reward for placing embassies which they can use in earlier eras. Other civs don't receive any benefit from embassies prior to renaissance.

Yeah I was wrong in my opinion about this building, it's a much stronger building then I originally thought. I forgot you normally only get 1 civil servant and noticed it wasn't underlined and 2 as a base made sense due to it being a national wonder. Though I wouldn't say great diplomat generation is a unique emphasis, not if china gets 2 civil servant slots on all their chanceries.

I can't see any way that this building would tilt Iroquois to a CV, since the Sachems council does not generate any tourism. The culture on the building, and the yields received via embassies may make other civs' CVs more difficult though. See Hinin's comment above.

Sometimes I mistakenly think culture = tourism, which isn't always the case. The only thing Iroquois would have going for it is if the yields from the diplomat promotion are added to the capital tile, which is later converted into tourism. Even if that is the case, the tourism you'd gain from that is very minuscule.

This gets brought up again and again, but I wonder how many of you have ever actually had a melee unit higher than lvl 10 before? I have only ever accomplished that feat once, with Aztec Jaguars in vanilla. The Jaguar's earlier appearance, heal on kills, and 2 other free promotions, combined with stupid unit handling by the AI allowed me to keep units alive that long. I have to wonder if we are only debating hypotheticals here? This 1 unit gets more from levels than other units, but for a base unique unit, it's actually pretty bad. In my own game with 4UC Babylon, I have had tremendous difficulty keeping my SK alive, but that could be because I had Sweden as a neighbor.

I was mainly concerned with later on in the game, when unit levels are generally higher. Though I do agree, for it's time, other UU's can sorely outclass this one. It's different in that UU's generally lose some of their flavor/power (relative to the unit they replaced) and this one retains most of it in the form of the legacy promotion, and actually scales to be stronger later on in game. It's different for sure, and requires a lot of effort to adequately make use of.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I don't think Mughal should be in a need of buffs, really. Late game it's going to be nuts. I'm going to play this game as a warmongering= Authority>Fealty>Imperialism India (that archer will be of use) to try it out. Dhfaainbgodiknpodgkghpodfkgbpodskbpok (arrer boy) seems like it'll be solid for the task.

 

[pineappledan]

I was mainly concerned with later on in the game, when unit levels are generally higher. Though I do agree, for it's time, other UU's can sorely outclass this one. It's different in that UU's generally lose some of their flavor/power (relative to the unit they replaced) and this one retains most of it in the form of the legacy promotion, and actually scales to be stronger later on in game. It's different for sure, and requires a lot of effort to adequately make use of.

There's certainly an argument to be made that the SK's abilities make it so their REAL power spike is Renaissance, when they get upgraded to Tercio. Problem is you have to survive 2 eras of being a pretty lackluster spearman/pikeman, up against swordsmen/knights before you can really shine. By then, if you're lucky, they could be lvl 6-8, but then you can't make any more.

I don't think Mughal should be in a need of buffs, really. Late game it's going to be nuts. I'm going to play this game as a warmongering= Authority>Fealty>Imperialism India (that archer will be of use) to try it out. Dhfaainbgodiknpodgkghpodfkgbpodskbpok (arrer boy) seems like it'll be solid for the task.

Good luck, though you might want to wait for another week. The entire Archery line is slated to get buffed next VP patch.

 

[pineappledan]

I went in and did a bunch of new, smaller text fixes to a bunch of unique units, fixed the U of Coimbra text, and added the Faith to Haciendas into the Spanish Mission help section. The Madrasah yields on purchase was also 1/2 of what the UB description said, so I changed it to what is described in the text (20/100 on non-GP/GP faith purchases, up from 10/50 )

@adan_eslavo I am voting that we drop the Khopesh's "Skillful" promotion entirely, delete the accompanying lua/text, and push a v32.1. I am not willing to pull the trigger on deleting the Khopesh promotion without another team leader (you or @Blue Ghost's) agreement.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I like the Skillful effect, but I agree that something should go on the khopesh, and it’s already strong and complex enough without it. If you need to get rid of something, I have no objections.

 

[adan_eslavo]

We can check how it will perform without it.

 

[pineappledan]

Okay, I have edited the khopesh lua, sql and text files to remove the skillful promotion out of the game for now

I did not delete anything, just commented it out for now. If we don't like the change it is easy to revert

 

[documental]

Some errors in descriptions, I'll add as I go if I find anything else. (Note: these are all base 'Game Info' descriptions)

Spoiler :

French SPAD S.VII claims to have the Quick Study promotion

Carthage Suffet is a 'Zulu' unique great person

Greece Klephat 'slightly' isn't... capitalized and the description makes no mention of the Altitude Training promotion

Inca Chasqui Provides Gold whenever it reveals new tiles, and heals 15 hp every turn in Friendly Territory 'while not fortified'.

Inca Intihuatana isn't shown to replace the Observatory in the civilopedia tab

 

[pineappledan]

The first 3 will be fixed in the next version.

The Chasqui one stays. Units heal 15 hp in friendly territory if fortified. What the promotion does is make them heal 15HP, even if they don't fortify. It is sufficient to say "Chasqui heals 15 HP every turn in owned territory"

 

[adan_eslavo]

v32.2 out:

• Skilful promotion dropped,
• Further small text corrections.