3rd and 4th Unique Components for VP - Official thread 88.10

[pineappledan]

Sachem's Council currently not giving Reciprocity to Great Diplomats for me.

Just tested. It works fine

New version incoming:

V75:
- Tweaked/modified:
    - Chinese Xiafan Guanjun renamed to Baochuan. Broadside replaced with +25 max HP
    - Reduced Spanish Bullring construction cost from 1000 to 800
    - Songhai Sofa moved back to machinery, increased production cost, increased RCS and CS.
    - Aztec Huey Teocalli scaling XP is now Global
- Bugfixes
    - Ottoman Great Bombards can no longer be gifted by city-states
    - Russian Pogost now works as described, giving +10% local city connection gold at each stage
    - Kampong can only be constructed in shallow coast, not deep ocean

Something that flipped with the CFC forum, and this mod no longer is small enough to be hosted solely on the forum. I am going ot host a link from my Mega. This will make archiving old versions harder/impossible from now on; the end of an era

 

[Revolutionist_8]

New version incoming:
Something that flipped with the CFC forum, and this mod no longer is small enough to be hosted solely on the forum. I am going ot host a link from my Mega. This will make archiving old versions harder/impossible from now on; the end of an era

Thank you for the continuous support!

 

[Rekk]

UM - Carolean change:
moved back to Rifling
replaces Fusilier
42 CS
625 Production Cost
Added "Field Works" Promotion

I don't think this is necessary any more?

 

[pineappledan]

The OP is a mess, that part has been gone for a while. Same with the Mandekalu change.

 

[pineappledan]

@Diomedes_ Moving your discussion here. I am more than happy to change the 4UC components for Germany in light of a big shakeup on the civ's design, especially the Teutonic Order. There are a few reasons why Germany has the components it currently has:

• The Stormtrooper was given to Germany specifically as something for post-unification Germany. WWII is covered thoroughly by the ideologies, which also have UUs of their own, so WWI was the more attractive option. The two most iconic WWI German units are the Stormtrooper and the U-boat. The U-boat is pretty unattractive as a UU because submarines are already very niche, so the Stormtrooper was the choice
• The immediate pre-Industrial era is thoroughly covered by the Prussian civ, which has a full VP conversion mod of its own, courtesy of @HungryForFood, and has 2 UUs of its own. There was discussion of a Jaeger UU at some point, but... ehh... Light infantry as UUs is kinda meh, and it doesn't combine with the unit gifting ability, because Recon units cant be gifted to CS.
• Krupp guns are... yeah. that might be fine. I do like how that takes Germany off having 2 UUs in the same unit line. However, you would need to find me art assets for it, and make a convincing argument for:
  • why it should replace the Stormtrooper?
  • why removing the only post-unification UC is good?
  • Why a Krupp Gun is a better fit for Germany's kit overall?
• The Teutonic Order was mainly added to address what the designers of 4UC felt was a glaring problem with Germany's design: everything was tech locked until fairly late, including the UA. With the removal of the bonus WC votes, and a UA that has its full power at all eras, I would be happy to remove the TO. I never much liked giving Germany a religion wonder anyways. That being said:
• I don't like the Steel Mill idea at all:
  • Too general, and it sounds like a retread of England's Steam mill. They even sound the same
  • It's basically highlighting the same thing that the Krupp Gun does: Steel
  • It's extremely late. This is generally a little bit more OK with UUs because all UUs are era locked, but a late UB doesn't obsolete so you necessarily get less game time to play with it. Late UBs are just less fun, and should be avoided if possible
• FWIW, I had my eye on a Beer Hall. That's much more uniquely German, and we don't have any Bavarian components yet.

 

[HeroOfTheSword]

FWIW, I had my eye on a Beer Hall. That's much more uniquely German, and we don't have any Bavarian components yet.

That's a fantastic idea!

 

[Diomedes_]

@pineappledan
Thanks for taking this into consideration. I've always felt that the true historical Great Powers (Germany, England, France, etc...) all had some of the least interesting civ designs (in both vanilla and VP), so I'm happy to see that people seem open to improving them. I'll try to address each of your points/questions below.

Krupp Gun/Cannon:
1. As you said, it is odd that both German UU's come on the same unit line. Having the second German UU be an artillery unit synergizes very well with having strong melee infantry do to their earlier UU. Making that cannon particularly good against military units further synergizes with a melee infantry unit that is particularly good against cities.
2. The Krupp Gun/Cannon does in part represent post-unification Germany, as the cannons were produced starting just before German unification, and Krupp-produced cannons were most definitely used by the German army during the First and Second World Wars.
3. Artillery UU's are some of the most uncommon UU's, while there are many melee infantry UU's, in both base VP and with 4UC. Thus, an artillery UU is just inherently more interesting and flavourful.
4. As for art, what about this:
.

It is the "quick fire howitizer" from Janboruta's Bulgaria mod and looks a lot like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.7_cm_FK_96_n.A. Of course, it does look a bit more modern than it should, but I don't think that's too big of a problem

Steel Mill:
1. I totally agree that the name is a bit stale. Maybe it could be called "Stahlwerk" (just steel mill in German), or "Blast Furnace"
2. While a factory replacement does come late, I believe that Germany should be a civ that is quite average, maybe even a bit weak, in the early to mid game and then drastically takes off in late renaissance/early industrial. This is fitting to the historical reality of the German people/nation/state, and presents a unique challenge and playstyle players will have to adapt to and optimize.
3. I agree with you that late UB's can be less fun to play with, but I think that is because many of those which already exist are just not interesting or not powerful enough. A unique factory that is truly much stronger than a base factory and does some unique things (such as boosting mines, tile construction, and providing iron, though it could of course do much more than just that) I don't think would be too uninteresting.
4. While it may highlight a similar thing to the Krupp Cannon, I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. Between 1800 and 1900, Germany probably changed more than any other country ever has within a similar span of time, in terms of politics and economics combined. One of the driving forces behind that monumental change was industrialization, specifically steel and railroads. The only country affected more quickly and profoundly by the industrial revolution was England, which is represented in 4UC by the steam mill. Thus, I think it is fitting that the industrial revolution should feature prominently in Germany's kit, as much of their national identity since the middle of the 19th century has revolved around industry and industrial production.
5. Additionally, I really like the synergy between the Hanse and the Landsknecht (more gold helps you buy more landsknechts), and I think a factory replacement and a field gun replacement would synergize very well together as well.

Prussia:
1. This is easily my favorite civ I've played on VP, and I am well acquainted with them. I think that the changes I'm proposing would actually further differentiate the two civs, mostly because this would mean they no longer share the Teutonic Order (which fits much better with the rest of Prussia's kit anyway), and the Krupp Cannon, while a bit Prussian, is still a hallmark of post-unification Germany.

Beer Hall:
1. I would love to see what you would want this building to be like.
2. My concerns with a Beer Hall are that we already have many unique culture buildings, with two buildings that are very similar to a beer hall (Celidh hall and Coffee House), and there is also the tavern building. I suppose a unique tavern could be interesting.
3. However, I think your desire to have a Bavarian part of the kit is a bit odd, as you said yourself that Germany's kit should reflect a post-unification Germany. Why replace a pre-unification part of their kit (the Teutonic Order) with a UB that isn't post-unification?

 

[pineappledan]

I think I'm sold on the Krupp Gun.

I don't think it looking too modern is too much of a problem. First off, I think we could make it an early-unlocking Artillery unit, maybe unlock at replaceable parts with the Rifleman. We could also unlock it at Field gun, where it wouldn't look too out of place either. The base Field Gun model is already a WWI piece: a French Soixante-Quinze.

My vote would be for an early Modern Artillery UU, since we don't have 1 yet. We have 2 unique field guns already; 3 if you count custom civs.

2. While a factory replacement does come late, I believe that Germany should be a civ that is quite average, maybe even a bit weak, in the early to mid game and then drastically takes off in late renaissance/early industrial. This is fitting to the historical reality of the German people/nation/state, and presents a unique challenge and playstyle players will have to adapt to and optimize.

Okay so a few things:

• Why a Factory? You keep mentioning trains, so why not a train station? Then it's not competing for oxygen with the Steam Mill, and drawing an inevitably unfavourable comparison with England.
• You said late game unique buildings are lame, but the main draw for your Steel Mill proposal is a 1:1 scaler. This is a copy of the Swedish Skola, which gives a 1:1 and a 1:2 scaler.

A unique factory that is truly much stronger than a base factory and does some unique things (such as boosting mines, tile construction, and providing iron, though it could of course do much more than just that) I don't think would be too uninteresting.

• basically everything you suggested is something the Steam Mill already does:
  • It doesn't cost Coal (giving free iron from a building that consumes coal sounds pretty bad, btw. like it's better than just costing the coal and giving nothing, but it's a weird trade)
  • It boosts Coal mines and Manufactories
  • It has a 2x stronger Pop scaler at 1 per 2
• Plus the Steam mill comes earlier, costs less, and has some flashy abilities, like the GEng from building construction ability
• Increasing worker rate is a very marginal bonus. We had it on Denmark's Andealvegaelse, and we removed it, because we didn't like how it scaled, and the bonus isn't that great, even if you manage to raise it pretty high.

5. Additionally, I really like the synergy between the Hanse and the Landsknecht (more gold helps you buy more landsknechts), and I think a factory replacement and a field gun replacement would synergize very well together as well.

This is the other part about a Steel mill that I don't get. The Hanse has +5 more gold than the base customs house, and a nice Science converter, but it is first and foremost a production building. Hanse has a huge, global % modifier on it that scales with the number of trade routes on empire, and is probably giving a global 30%production in all cities at the Industrial era already. So I don't know why you want a second big production building when that is already covered.
So another Steel component from the Ruhr Valley that gives Germany a big Production boost.
Feels like:

2. My concerns with a Beer Hall are that we already have many unique culture buildings, with two buildings that are very similar to a beer hall (Celidh hall and Coffee House), and there is also the tavern building. I suppose a unique tavern could be interesting.

It's maybe a bit similar to the coffee house, yeah, but I don't see much similarity to the Ceilidh, which are dance/community halls.
The tavern is part of EE, and so maybe the Beer Hall could be a unique replacement for that building with EE installed. I don't like EE, and I don't play with it, but I do keep integration and compatibility with that mod in mind for other people. It is unfortunate, however, because all of the EE buildings are absolute trash tier buildings that are not even close to being worth their production cost, except for the Gunsmith. Tavern gives -1boredom and +1 to deer, bison, and wheat? That's worse than a Granary that I built 3 eras ago for 1/10 the cost.

3. However, I think your desire to have a Bavarian part of the kit is a bit odd, as you said yourself that Germany's kit should reflect a post-unification Germany. Why replace a pre-unification part of their kit (the Teutonic Order) with a UB that isn't post-unification?

No, I said that at least 1 component of the 4 should be post-unification. You've made a convincing argument, especially with that unit icon, that the Krupp Gun mostly fulfills that requirement. I would also point out that Beer Halls are a very relevant part of Bavarian culture which has, post-unification, become emblematic of Germany at large. The most noteworthy historical events concerning Beer Halls are how they are tied to the rise of Fascism and populism in Germany, also post-unification. But it also has the benefit of being an old, and state sponsored institution that spans multiple eras, and can be unlocked probably in Renaissance.

As for why I like the idea of inclusion of some Bavarian components in particular, mainly because it's not Prussian. With Prussia also pinched off into its own civ, Bismarck himself being a Prussian politician, Krupp and his guns hailing from Westphalia, the Hanse representing the Northern Free Hanseatic Cities, and the Landsknecht being vaguely south-German, but rather general, there isn't a Bavarian component yet, even though Bavaria is the largest state geographically, and the second-largest demographically. Bavaria is a very culturally distinct and large German state that has retained much of its own pre-unification identity, and retroactively coloured the perception of Germany internationally. I would argue that Bavaria is the single state that is most stereotypically peak "German" in the popular consciousness, with Oktoberfest, beer halls, lederhosen, fairytale castles, and also being the birthplace of fascism and the first concentration camps. It has a rich and colourful history, yet has eluded representation.

1. I would love to see what you would want this building to be like.

coming soon.

 

[Diomedes_]

@pineappledan
Thanks for the thorough response! It really means a lot seeing how much passion you and other modders have for this game.

Making the Krupp Gun an early artillery unit is certainly flavorful. I play EE almost exclusively so what I really had in mind was a howitzer replacement, but I think your idea might be even better on its own without even taking into account compatibility stuff. Artillery are probably my favorite unit in the game, too

After thinking about what you said for a bit, I think you are totally right about the Steel Mill idea being a bit bland. And quite honestly, I had forgotten about how large the Hanse production boost was. I quite like your suggestion for a train station replacement, I'm going to think about that and see what I can come up with. I still think Germany should just be an absolute late-game production powerhouse.

Also, point very well taken visa-vie the beer hall (though maybe call it the Biergarten?). I'm excited to see what you come up with!

 

[KlHannibal2]

About Germany: I always liked their old setup that gave free early production from the ulfhedin, help with religion from teutonic order, a lot of production from hanse and late game conquest power from the panzer. Well, these times are gone.

So what to make of the civ from where it stands now? As I understood the discussions, the hanse and a UA with city state focus are the core of the civ that should stay in any case. So it will always have a diplomatic focus.

My question is: what should the civ as a whole do? What should it be rewarded for and what victory should it go for?

First the victory condition: from all the diplomatic civs, we have Austria (diplo and culture), Greece (diplo and domination), Siam (only diplo in my understanding) Iroquois (diplo and domination?)
What we don't have is diplo and science. So why not move Germany into that direction? They were a science leader in the first half of the 20 century and are still very good today.
It could be represented by Kaiser (Wilhelm) Institut, the leading science institution of that time.
It could be a public school or research lab replacement (in the latter case it could unlock early). It could give a science bonus based on CS allies/friends or TR with CS. I would favor a CS TR based bonus.

The focus on diplo and science would go well with the krupp gun. The storm trooper is mostly good for attacking, but the gun could be equally powerful on defense. The only concern I have with the krupp gun is that it could become an even weaker unit than the storm trooper. Which is already much weaker than the panzer was.

The science bonus could help with diplo victory by unlocking crucial resolutions earlier. And the hanses's production bonus would help a lot with building the space ship parts. Freedom would be a good ideology to go for in this setup.

Beer halls / beer gardens are popular in Bavaria, but how do they contribute to the success of the civ / nation? By making people drunk?

 

[Diomedes_]

My question is: what should the civ as a whole do? What should it be rewarded for and what victory should it go for?

What we don't have is diplo and science.

I think this is a good point. Their current bonus does do diplo and science, though I have never quite liked it much. I quite like your idea about a science-focused replacement for the Tuetonic Order. Maybe not a public school (as Sweden already has the skola). Ideally I think it would be something that combines science with production. However, I'm struggling to think of a good alternative building for it to be a replacement of. Maybe a factory or train station?

 

[pineappledan]

First the victory condition: from all the diplomatic civs, we have Austria (diplo and culture), Greece (diplo and domination), Siam (only diplo in my understanding) Iroquois (diplo and domination?)

I would argue Siam is diplo/science. The Wat gives a ton of science fairly early

Austria is diplomatic and Great people focused. Base VP Austria does not have a single extra point of culture on it, but the Coffeehouse, like the Hanse, does have a yield to science converter. It's inaccurate to say that Austria unambiguously leans cultural.

Germany already does have 2 extra sources of Science: The aforementioned gold to Science converter on the Hanse and the science per friend, scaling with Era. Germany is already well-situated on a Diplomatic primary/science secondary victory path. All an additional component has to do is not mess with that. It doesn't need to emphasize it more.

What we don't have is diplo and science. So why not move Germany into that direction? They were a science leader in the first half of the 20 century and are still very good today.

Like I said, Germany already IS diplo-science, and you arguably have a 2nd, soft Diplo/Science civ with Siam.

It could be represented by Kaiser (Wilhelm) Institut, the leading science institution of that time.

What did I just get done saying about more Prussian components? GAWD!

It could be a public school or research lab replacement (in the latter case it could unlock early). It could give a science bonus based on CS allies/friends or TR with CS. I would favor a CS TR based bonus.

Did you look at Germany's kit before posting? Germany already has bonus yields per CS trade route, AND he already has bonus yields for CS ally/friend that era scales. Why add a second, separate bonus of the same kind to the same mechanic rather than just make the existing bonus stronger? That's repetitive design. Also, the only other civ that currently has an extra bonus per CS friend/ally as the extra part of their UB is Austria with the Standschutzen, so you would be overlapping again there.

Okay, Beer Hall design first draft:

Beer Hall (Windmill Replacement)
600
no Maintenance (down from 4)
33 (up from 3)
+15%Production towards buildings
Grocers, Granaries, and Wheat Resources gain +1 and +1
Marshes and Lakes gain 22
+1Happiness and 3Science for every 10 Policies adopted by your Civilization
+1 Culture in the City for every Active City-State unit you have gifted. Gains more yields upon adopting an Ideology

+1Gold per gifted unit for Liberty
+1Food per gifted unit for Order
+1Production per gifted unit for Autocracy
​

Okay, so here's my justification:

• The Beer Halls of Bavaria are not just an institution in their own right, but are emblematic of the Reinheitsegebot, the oldest food safety policy in history, which was adopted by the Bavarian state in 1516, and whose wider adoption by all of Germany was a condition of Bavarian unification with Germany. To this day, if you sell a bottom-fermenting lager in German with more than Hops, Grain, water and yeast as its ingredients, it is illegal to call it 'bier'. The Reinheitsegebot has become an intangible piece of German heritage and national pride.
• In addition to this intimate relationship with state policy, the Beer Halls were the starting point for not just 1, but two ideological revolutionary movements in Europe: Nazism and Leninism. Both Hitler and Lenin frequented the Beer Halls of Munich and did some of their most important writing, thinking, and debating while formulating their ideologies there.
• Lastly, the idea of the Beer Hall, the Beer Gardens which are often attached, Oktoberfest, and the Hafbrauhaus in particular were brought around the world by German immigrants and Allied soldiers who returned from the war with beer steins and other paraphernalia as souvenirs from Munich. This cemented the international recognition and acclaim of the German beer halls as cultural emissaries for the re-constitution of Germany's post-war image.
• The yields per gifted unit combines with the 1influence per turn for CS unit gifts from Iron & Blood. This is a small, but important difference, which I think iterates rather than just duplicating an existing bonus. The yields depend on what ideology you adopt as Germany, with a soft incentive to go Autocracy for the best yields type from the Beer Hall, and a soft disincentive for Order to reinforce that they shouldn't go that ideology (least suitable ideology for diplo victory)

 

[Kim Dong Un]

Gains more yields upon adopting an Ideology
+1Gold per gifted unit for Liberty
+1Food per gifted unit for Order
+1Production per gifted unit for Autocracy

Hey now, are you just trolling Supreme Leader at this point, or is the ideology upgrade really that awesome of a concept?

P.S. I joke; that stuff was all Hinin's idea initially. Just glad to see it viable for others.

 

[pineappledan]

Germany is well-situated at the cross roads of all 3 ideologies. Marx and Engels were German, Lenin did much of his thinking and writing in Germany, The Weimar republic was deeply committed to liberalism, and of course there's the Nazis. A lot of alternate paths and what-ifs surrounding German history.

 

[pineappledan]

I was looking at German WWI field guns, and the one that I think most resembles the picture is this 15 cm Feldhaubitze (field howitzer).
The Germans went into the war with the most well-suited guns of any major power. They had a larger portion of howitzers as a total proportion of their artillery, and they were of good quality. Howitzers, with their relatively shorter barrel length and portability relative to long guns/artillery for the same calibre, and steeper angle of fire made them more suitable to hitting infantry dug into vertical trenches

Would Feldhaubitze be a better name than Krupp Gun?

Proposal for Krupp Gun

UM - Krupp Gun (replaces Artillery):

Available at Replaceable Parts (1 tech earlier)
1100 Production Cost (down from 1300)
3 Range
2 Movement
40 CS, 55 RCS (up from 40CS/50 RCS)
"Siege inaccuracy"
"Cover I"
"bonus vs cities" (100)
"Moves at Half-Speed in Enemy Territory"
"Indirect Fire"
"Feldhaubitze" - +50% vs Fortified units. Enemy Tile improvements that provide Tile Defense are pillaged if attacked. (Note: does not affect Great Person Tiles)
"Trommelfeuer" - Attacks from a unit with this promotion add +5% RCS to all units with this promotion for this turn. max of +50% RCS​

 

[Hinin]

Would Feldhaubitze be a better name than Krupp Gun?

Based on the promotions you're proposing for the unit, I think Feldhaubitze would be a good idea. That said, Krupp Gun is more iconic and enduring. Your choice, I guess.

"Feldhaubitze" - +50% vs Fortified units. Enemy Tile improvements that provide Tile Defense are pillaged if attacked.

To be honest, I think that's the kind of promotion that should be reserved for the Freedom UU B17 (and in a weaker form, more focused on economic warfare) : giving the ability to basically ignore Citadels to a Civ UU seems too powerful to me. That said, I understand the logic : maybe keep the bonus against fortified units, but add something akin to Quick Study (to show the proficiency of German artillery) ?

"Trommelfeuer" - Attacks from a unit with this promotion add +5% RCS to all units with this promotion for this turn. max of +50% RCS

I really like this : it gives a feeling similar to the French UA, but is distinctive since it's weaker but doesn't require you to focus a target.

Other ideas :

• Some kind of reference to gas weapons, with a plague that counters the effect of entrenched infantry
• Something akin to the Hoplite promotion that gives bonus Ranged attack based on the number of adjacent Krupp Guns.
• A weaker form of the Feldhaubitze that only pillage the tile when killing the enemy unit on it (although, as I said, that would be something I would like to see for the B17)

 

[Rekk]

"Feldhaubitze" - +50% vs Fortified units. Enemy Tile improvements that provide Tile Defense are pillaged if attacked.

Wow, that's strong and cool.

I think it's too strong as-is, though. I can think of weakening it is to give a one-turn plague to the unit on the tile, and after the unit receives X stacks, pillage the improvement. The player would also do something else: perhaps reduced movement as the unit has "gone to ground".
Or it can be tied to stacks of Trommelfeuer.
These ideas probably take up too much deeper on the promotions, though.

Pillaging on kill could also work, even if that means the enemy can swap out their units on their turn. The new unit loses its fortification bonus... So actually had better defense against further artillery attacks? Unless bonus vs fortified gives the bonus if the unit if it's just in a fortification without actually taking the fortify action?

 

[KlHannibal2]

I would argue Siam is diplo/science. The Wat gives a ton of science fairly early

Austria is diplomatic and Great people focused. Base VP Austria does not have a single extra point of culture on it, but the Coffeehouse, like the Hanse, does have a yield to science converter. It's inaccurate to say that Austria unambiguously leans cultural.

Germany already does have 2 extra sources of Science: The aforementioned gold to Science converter on the Hanse and the science per friend, scaling with Era. Germany is already well-situated on a Diplomatic primary/science secondary victory path. All an additional component has to do is not mess with that. It doesn't need to emphasize it more.

Like I said, Germany already IS diplo-science, and you arguably have a 2nd, soft Diplo/Science civ with Siam.
What did I just get done saying about more Prussian components? GAWD!

Did you look at Germany's kit before posting? Germany already has bonus yields per CS trade route, AND he already has bonus yields for CS ally/friend that era scales. Why add a second, separate bonus of the same kind to the same mechanic rather than just make the existing bonus stronger? That's repetitive design. Also, the only other civ that currently has an extra bonus per CS friend/ally as the extra part of their UB is Austria with the Standschutzen, so you would be overlapping again there.

Okay, Beer Hall design first draft:

Beer Hall (Windmill Replacement)
600
no Maintenance (down from 4)
33 (up from 3)
+15%Production towards buildings
Grocers, Granaries, and Wheat Resources gain +1 and +1
Marshes and Lakes gain 22
+1Happiness and 3Science for every 10 Policies adopted by your Civilization
+1 Culture in the City for every Active City-State unit you have gifted. Gains more yields upon adopting an Ideology

+1Gold per gifted unit for Liberty
+1Food per gifted unit for Order
+1Production per gifted unit for Autocracy
​

Okay, so here's my justification:

• The Beer Halls of Bavaria are not just an institution in their own right, but are emblematic of the Reinheitsegebot, the oldest food safety policy in history, which was adopted by the Bavarian state in 1516, and whose wider adoption by all of Germany was a condition of Bavarian unification with Germany. To this day, if you sell a bottom-fermenting lager in German with more than Hops, Grain, water and yeast as its ingredients, it is illegal to call it 'bier'. The Reinheitsegebot has become an intangible piece of German heritage and national pride.
• In addition to this intimate relationship with state policy, the Beer Halls were the starting point for not just 1, but two ideological revolutionary movements in Europe: Nazism and Leninism. Both Hitler and Lenin frequented the Beer Halls of Munich and did some of their most important writing, thinking, and debating while formulating their ideologies there.
• Lastly, the idea of the Beer Hall, the Beer Gardens which are often attached, Oktoberfest, and the Hafbrauhaus in particular were brought around the world by German immigrants and Allied soldiers who returned from the war with beer steins and other paraphernalia as souvenirs from Munich. This cemented the international recognition and acclaim of the German beer halls as cultural emissaries for the re-constitution of Germany's post-war image.
• The yields per gifted unit combines with the 1influence per turn for CS unit gifts from Iron & Blood. This is a small, but important difference, which I think iterates rather than just duplicating an existing bonus. The yields depend on what ideology you adopt as Germany, with a soft incentive to go Autocracy for the best yields type from the Beer Hall, and a soft disincentive for Order to reinforce that they shouldn't go that ideology (least suitable ideology for diplo victory)

Kaiser Wilhelm institues were started in 1911 and continued until after WW2. Later, the umbrella society was renamed to Max Planck Gesellschaft and is still active today. So they are post-unification. The institutes were mostly situated in the prussian part of Germany, but there was one in Munich too.

That said, I like the yield concept of your beer hall. Especially the culture based on gifted units. When I tried the UA, I felt in the late game it is not worth gifting units any more compared to just using diplomat units. The culture per city would give another incentive to do so.

 

[KlHannibal2]

I was looking at German WWI field guns, and the one that I think most resembles the picture is this 15 cm Feldhaubitze (field howitzer).
The Germans went into the war with the most well-suited guns of any major power. They had a larger portion of howitzers as a total proportion of their artillery, and they were of good quality. Howitzers, with their relatively shorter barrel length and portability relative to long guns/artillery for the same calibre, and steeper angle of fire made them more suitable to hitting infantry dug into vertical trenches

Would Feldhaubitze be a better name than Krupp Gun?

Proposal for Krupp Gun
View attachment 620843
UM - Krupp Gun (replaces Artillery):

Available at Replaceable Parts (1 tech earlier)
1100 Production Cost (down from 1300)
3 Range
2 Movement
40 CS, 55 RCS (up from 40CS/50 RCS)
"Siege inaccuracy"
"Cover I"
"bonus vs cities" (100)
"Moves at Half-Speed in Enemy Territory"
"Indirect Fire"
"Feldhaubitze" - +50% vs Fortified units. Enemy Tile improvements that provide Tile Defense are pillaged if attacked. (Note: does not affect Great Person Tiles)
"Trommelfeuer" - Attacks from a unit with this promotion add +5% RCS to all units with this promotion for this turn. max of +50% RCS​

Nice concept. I like Feldhaubitze as unit name. Sounds more professional than krupp gun and sounds like a term the army would have used for them.

I especially like the Trommelfeuer ability. As for the other ability, I rarely encounter forts used by the AI, so it sounds less useful. What about a poison gas ability that gives a plague effect instead? It could be called "Buntschiessen" (multi colored fire). It meant the combined use of different kinds of poison gas granades. The name derived from a colored cross on the granade that designated the type of poison gas it contained.

 

[pineappledan]

So I did a little more digging and downloaded the Bulgaria mod. TarcisioCM used a model from Wolfdog's WW1 Artillery pack. Specifically, I'm pretty sure the model used is a Russian 76mm M1902 gun. from that pack (1st picture on the left). There is a more appropriate German 7.7 96 Fk unit model in that pack (2nd on the left). This is the gun that @Diomedes_ first noted the icon bore a resemblance to, and I think we should swap it to that. The artillery crew uniforms are more German with that model; I doubt anyone is eagle-eyed enough to notice the difference between a Russian 76mm and a German 77mm.

A weaker form of the Feldhaubitze that only pillage the tile when killing the enemy unit on it

Pillaging on kill could also work, even if that means the enemy can swap out their units on their turn.

I like the idea of pillaging on kill better. If it were just on attack, I was planning on excluding GP tiles like citadels from it, but if it's on kill, and Citadels give +100% defense, it is a decent reward and it really feels like you would have to blow that unit away in order to get the pillage. At that point, I think the ability is mostly saving you from having to move an armor/scout unit into the tile to pillage, and that seems good to me.

The idea behind the ability was that, if we are sticking to the more general 'Krupp Gun' name, then the big siege artillery in the category, like the 55cm Minenwerfer "Big Bertha" fall uner that umbrella. (side note: We actually have a unit model for Big Bertha, see the link above.) These "mine launchers" were used to level several forts in quick succession through Belgium at the Battle of Liege, and nearly getting into range of Paris with the destruction of Mauberge at the beginning of the Schlieffen plan. There were only 10 of those super-big Howitzer pieces made, however, and they're a bit absurd to make as the base artillery model to represent all of German artillery, so I think we stick to the 7.7 cm gun. Still, that doesn't mean the promotions can't call back to German artillery's use in the first push of the war, levelling fortress after fortress as they smashed through Belgium and Northern France.

I also like how this combines with the early unlock. Schlieffen Plan, early war of motion WWI makes sense with the earlier unlock, which stresses Germany's early aggressive success. I think once you get to the Battle of Verdun, and Falkenhayn's attrition doctrine, the shine really falls off the German artillery, as British and French artillery is brought in to match the Germans' early advantage in heavy howitzers.

The promotion should actually be called "Minenwerfer", upon closer reading.

What about a poison gas ability that gives a plague effect instead? It could be called "Buntschiessen" (multi colored fire). It meant the combined use of different kinds of poison gas granades.

It's an interesting idea, but I'm hesitant to use more plague promotions. I think it would be incredibly difficult to get the balance right for how they should work when artillery can apply this debuff across 3-4 tiles with indirect fire. With how easy it would be to debuff armies from a great distance, I think the plague would have to be really weak.

Also, plagues reward you for having dispersed fire over many units, so you can reap the benefit of weakened armies when it's your turn to defend. With artillery, where you want to concentrate fire on your turn, it's a counter-synergy. It also works against the Feldhaubitze/Minenwerfer promotion idea, because you would have 1 promotion that rewards kills, and 1 promotion that rewards non-lethal damage. Maybe that means the unit's strengths are hedged against itself, but it looks unfocused to me, and counter to how you want to use these units in general.

Thematically, it's a bit grim. It feeds into that old propaganda of the Germans being the "bad guys" of WWI, which I want to resist. I think that the general consensus around gas attacks was that they didn't live up to the promise, and were just as much a detriment to the German war effort as they were a benefit. Germany's use of such a cowardly and inhumane weapon was a propaganda win for the Entente, but the use of gas never made the Entente powers break ranks, and it never let the Germans push through.

I would like to point out that the first use of chemical weapons in WWI was actually by the French, who deployed tear gas. The first use of lethal gas attacks was against the 1st Canadian Division at Ypres. If we added a plague like that, it would be my patriotic duty to make the Canadian Expeditionary Force UU immune to it