3UC/4UC for VP: Project Coordination Thread

[Ziad]

Because they upgrade adjacent improvements instead. As I said when we were first designing this UI:

The funny thing about this is the Oppidum is actually more AI friendly than the Town is replaces. AI doesn't really understand that it needs to place towns on infrastructure

Hehe I can see that but how is that a justification for the player?

This is a Great Improvement replacement. That's the most rare kind of improvement. At most you'll have a dozen or so of them in a game. Unless you use all free GP for GMs I suppose. Add a few then.

The Oppidum itself only provides an additional +2 culture and +2 faith as baseline.

Town actually gets a couple of additional yields. Gazebo recently buffed it.

Ignoring that, you're losing up to 8 yields by not having road/trade connection. The Oppidum at most provides 12 additional yields.

While you can argue that it's technically 4 yields til Railroad, you also don't get a massive increase in Great People til post-Renaissance.

K scrap the comparison. You have other civs getting buildings that provide comparable yields while also providing effects that impact gameplay. All you get are yields from this building...

I think I'm also bothered by the baseline Town improvement still being available. Is this supposed to be a choice? Why are they only civ that has to make this choice?

It should be a strict Town replacement, getting an additional small buff (the culture and faith), and upgrading nearby tiles while getting the same functionality. The buffs should stay as they are (Oppidum should peak sooner).

I do see the value of wanting to place it anywhere (not limiting in connections) though. It just feels more game-y then thematic *shrug*

 

[pineappledan]

Don't forget you can stagger oppidum 2 tiles apart for +4 yields on tiles which are adjacent to 2 oppidum

 

[Ziad]

Ah that's good to know. I haven't tried it yet.

Still, that doesn't give you more overall yields? Tile porn but not much else

 

[adan_eslavo]

@Infixo, @pineappledan Major problem with coca and tambo. There are 3 possible outcomes:

• if you place coca with IGE and then build a city - it works, automatic improvement of a resource,
• if you place coca with IGE and build plantation on it - it works,
• if you construct city and place coca beneath it - it doesn't work, coca is seen, but not counted as improved resource, so it is not counted to monopoly.

 

[Infixo]

@adan_eslavo I suppose it means that "improving" a resource happens in the moment when a city is settled. Makes sense. Once the city is settled, there's no case in the normal game that a resource would spawn under city. Basically in normal game resources on the map are like "constants", they don't change.

 

[adan_eslavo]

Exactly. That's why we have a problem. Current design of Tambo means that after its construction it spawns Coca which is not counted to monopoly. Nevertheless I made current design on github. If we rethink the idea then code will need to be adjusted.

Inca and few old descriptions updated on my main post.

 

[pineappledan]

Only 2 possible things to do then, I think.
Option 1:

• Monopoly calculated by Lua
  • If GameInfo:GetNumResource(RESOURCE_COCA) >=2 then
  • If 2*pPlayer:GetNumResourceTotal(RESOURCE_COCA, true) >= GameInfo:GetNumResource(RESOURCE_COCA)
  • bCocaMonopoly = true
• then give promotion that way

This causes a lot of complications with transferring coca from 1 conqueror to the other, and back and forth, because it is tied to if a tambo has ever been built in that city, which does not necessarily mean the city is originally Incan. Solution:

• Tambos technically not be the building that gives coca
• On construction, the Tambo automatically constructs a dummy building in its own unique building class, and has AlwaysCapture = true
• This building is the one that gives the Coca resource, and since it is not a UB, it is retained on capture

Option 2:

• use InitCity() to essentially "reboot" the city when Tambo is built
• Would have to silence all yield on settle and yields on building construction from policies, etc.

I don't know if that is possible, and if it is possible to have all the buildings stay after you effectively destroy the city and then un-destroy it really quickly. The first option sounds easier, and option 2 sounds like it would take a lot of rooting around in DLL to get working properly, even if it is possible

 

[Infixo]

Option 3. Come up with a new nice ability that doesn't go across game mechanics.

 

[Hinin]

So, I used the last version of the mod on github to do some tests with IGE. Here is what I found :

Spoiler Long list :

Morocco :
- Corsair => The Game Info of the unit needs to be completed to mention the "can enter rival territory" attribute of the unit

Assyria :
- Lamassu gate => The Game Info of the building needs to be completed to mention the writer specialist and the GWWriting slot the building gives

Songhai :
- Sofa => The Game Info of the unit needs to be completed to mention the fact the unit is cheaper than the CBM, and has the "Medic" promotion
=> suggestion : when we designed the unit, one idea was to make the unit available at "Chivalry", so that both Songhai UMs are unlocked at the same time (knights and servants/slaves fighting together and complementing each other) ; since the Sofa isn't a very powerful unit by itself (a bit better than a CBM), why not put this in the modmod ?
=> I like the fighting animation of the Sofa a lot (it's simply a reutilisation of the "spear-throwing" animation of the Impi, but it's original enough), but it raises a question : why has the Sofa as much RCP as a CBM, and one less CP ? To me, a ranged unit armed with spears should be able to defend itself better, but would lack range when compared to an archer or a CBM (except if you use an atlatl, of course)... Maybe increasing the CP but decreasing the RCP a bit would make more sense, but that's just an opinion

Huns :
- Tarkhan => The Game Info and Strategy part of the civilopedia describe the unit as "benefitting your economy" and "giving yield when in a burning city", but that's simply not the case. Currently, the unit should be good at escorting civilians and supporting your other units while being a powerful melee mounted unit thanks to the Hunnic UA.;;
=> The "Bellum Alet" promotion heals everyone around the Tarkhan, and not only allied units + there is an ' in the name of the promotion which shouldn't be here
=> There is a problem with the civilians benefitting with the "Migration" promotion : de facto, they only have +1 MP, because their first movement costs 2 MP, even on open terrain.

Here are some pictures

Spoiler Tarkhan in distress :

Celts :
- Scythed chariot => suggestion : the "Carnyx" promotion has some problems ; I suppose it is meant to reflect the fact that Celts used chariots to move their foot warriors quickly, and so they weren't as fragile in melee combat, since they were transporting armored warriors, but the name of the promotion doesn't reflect this reality, and the bonus itself is quite bland. I suggest getting rid of the promotion and giving the unit one or two CP in exchange, or finding another idea for the promotion.

Russia :
- Pogost => suggestion : the Game Info of the building is a bit ambiguous on what happens with it ; I suggest maybe a relecture

Carthage :
- Sophet => suggestion : as it is currently, the Sophet can be a cause of frustration (since they can't come back to their GG except if in a city, and the AI doesn't understand that the unit can come back to its GG form) ; one way to resolve this might be to make so that the unit doesn't transform when embarking (so it always be a GG), but it get additionnal MP and Sight and new actions at its disposition (when embarked, it would have the Repair/Discovery actions ; when disembarked, it would have the Citadel action ; whenever in an owned coastal city, it would have the "change port" action to that it can "teleport" like a GA). Also, the unit would have a unique aura (replacing the one of the "leadership" promotion) which would boost all units, being land units or ships. I already made this suggestion, and I think changing the way actions work for the unit will be impossible, but I just wanted to point the idea out once more.

Indonesia :
- Kampong => just so you know that the Kampong can be built on lakes, giving Indonesia better lake tiles than the Aztecs...

Denmark :
- Andelsbevaegelse => suggestion : the Historical info part of the civilopdia page is quite exhausting to read (quite long and technical), which isn't what we want ; I suggest a relecture

Spain :
- Armda => their is no mention in the Game info of the fact that the unit is more expensive than the Corvette, is available earlier and gains some bonus when at full health
- Hacienda => after the recent changes to the UI, the Game info needs to be redone

Aztec :
- Huey Teocalli => the Game info hasn't been updated to take into account the fact that the UW now gives +2 culture and +2 faith to all Temples (instead of +1/+1)

France :
- SPAD S.VII => the Game info hasn't been updated to take into account the fact that the unit doesn't have the "Quick learner" promotion, and instead can attack twice per turn

Egypt :
- Nilometer => Currently, the building can be built alongside a Well when the city isn't next to a river. I suggest giving the building the same building restriction as the Aztec Floating garden (if the UB is built, the Well can't be built), so that the idea of having both buildings in the city stays a Shoshone specificity.

Siam :
- Seir Morb => suggestion : the "Crouching Tiger cannon" promotion should be renamed, since there is already a promotion named like that ("Crouching tiger" => bonus CS from MP) ; I suggest "Coastal cannon" as the new name
=> suggestion : the "Crouching Tiger" promotion, which is meant to offer you a combat bonus if you don't move your unit, suffers from one minor problem : if I'm not mistaken, there is no way in VP to give the Seir Morb an additionnal MP (except if you are Sweden, but the occurance of Sweden having a Seir Morb is quite low), so the promotion is quite limited in the synergies it can contribute to. What can we do ?

Ottoman :
- Great Bombard => the Game info and the Strategy part of the civilopedia should be rework to take into account the "Sahi Topu" promotion (since its effect are quite significant, it is bothering that no mention of it appears in the civilopedia page of the unit.

Byzantium :
- Dromon => the Game info should be reworked, since it gives strategic advice, which isn't what this part is made for (this should be displaced to the strategic part of the civilopedia)

America :
- Homestead => the Game info and Strategy part of the civilopedia should be reworked, since they don't correspond at all to what the building does

Portugal :
- Cacadores => the unique promotion of the unit doesn't work at all
- University of Coimbra => the UW works correctly

Korea :
- Turtle ship => the unit has the "Cannot end turn on ocean tile" promotion, which, I think, is a souvenir from the CS gift unit.

Germany :
- Slaganz => the unit uses the Spearman model (+ flag in strategic view)

Zulu :
- InDuna => none of the unique promotions of the unit work

Japan :
- Yamato => ???????

Spoiler The Japanese navy in all its splendor :

=> there is no popup indicating that GA points have been gained thanks to the production of the unit (we can only see this bonus thanks to the GA jauge, which increases)
- Kabuki theater => works perfectly for me now

Iroquois :
- Sachem's council : as I said before, the Game info should be corrected to correspond to what the building really does (number of Papers gained)

Spoiler Sachem's council :

Brazil :
- Sambadrome => There is no historical info

Shoshone :
- Yellow Brow => suggestion : the formation of the unit is the same than the one for the Tercio : the "two line" formation is good for the Tercio (one line of Pikemen to protect one line of Musketmen), but the one which should correspond the most to the YB should be the Impi "disorganized" formation, don't you think
=> the unit has the "Courage" promotion, which, in addition to the "always fight at full health" bonus, gives a bonus to attack and a heal when killing an enemy unit ; this should be changed (maybe extract the "always fight at full health" bonus from this promotion, and give it to the unique promotion of the YB), or the real bonus of the units revealed in the Game info

As always, thank you for your hard work, and have a good week !

 

[pineappledan]

Option 3. Come up with a new nice ability that doesn't go across game mechanics.

Would you like to share with the class, or are you just heckling?

Having a slightly below-board unique monopoly for 1 civ isn't the end of the world as I see it. We could have coca spawn on a flat tile near the city, so it's out of the way of terrace farms, but that is just Indonesia's UA. Otherwise there have been other ideas floated for Inca, but many of us agreed that giving players more incentive to attack Inca would be good. Often the Inca feel too difficult to go after, and for too little reward.

If you want to have an opinion for what we should do with the Tambo, or some other unique for Inca then go for it. I did a short write-up here for possible Inca buildings to get you started.

Thanks for the big write-up @Hinin. I know you've brought up a few of these before; it's just taken a while to get to them. It's great to have so many in the same place like this.

I can try to deal with the text-related ones:
PDan's to do list:

Spoiler :

• corsair text
• lamassu text
• sofa text
• tarkhan text
• pogost text
• Andelgersbeldiber
• Armada and Hacienda text
• Huey Teocalli text
• SPAD text
• Seir Morb promotion name
• Great Bombard text
• Dromon text
• Sachem's council description
• Smabadrome

SQL things we need to fix

Spoiler :

• Yellow Brow formation and promotion
• Scythed Chariot Promotion
• Sofa CP/RCP, earlier tech - I like your idea of mocing it earlier, but making it weaker
• put Nilometer in exclusive building group
• remove 'cannot enter deep ocean' from turtle ship
• Slaganz unit model and SV

Fixes that require lua:

Spoiler :

• Coimbra is NOT working, because the yields do not go down if a foreign feitoria is removed
• Cacadores doesn't get its scout promotions
• Tarkhan healing everyone
• Tarkhan civilian movement
• Yamato instant yield on construction

Things that are working as intended, imo

Spoiler :

• InDuna - none of that lua has been made yet. This needs to be done, but it's no surprise it doesn't work Edit - Blue ghost finished this lua
• Shofet - I don't like the idea of having the shofet do all that stuff without becoming a full GA and back again. It sounds like it will cause way more issues than it fixes
• Scythed Chariot - the Carnyx was a horn use din warfare by celtic armies. I have no strong opinions about it, but no other promotion in the game gives a bonus vs archery units, so I think it's not all bad.
• The Yamato. It's BEAUTIFUL

 

[Infixo]

@pineappledan Nothing particular in mind, just a reminder that there are more than 2 options.
But now, when I think about that monopoly, it actually boils down to the creation of first Tamba. Since noone else can create it, and the resource is not on the map, then it means that Inca get this monopoly automatically. Just attach the effect to Tamba and the result will be the same.

 

[pineappledan]

a few issues I take with that suggestion

- Without Coca in the picture, what about a tambo would imply that they give those special promotions?
- The entire 'thrill' of this original suggestion was that it would imply a certain amount of risk on the Inca player's part, because it is a Unique ability which can be stolen by another player. This rewards players more for going after the Inca who are a very difficult target, and helps differentiate it more from other buildings which just straight-up give unique promotions (Dojo, Ikanda, Ball court)
- For a building to work that way, it would have to give all present units you own the unique promotions off the first tambo. Without the coca monopoly enabling this, it feels like something a wonder might do, and just feels wrong for a UB. Furthermore it would make a building where the main ability of the UB is essentially done with after having built 1. The building has "blown its load", so to speak.

 

[Infixo]

I am saying that the whole „monopoly” idea boils down to the first Tambo with all consequences. Just another reason to let it go and come up with something new.

 

[Hinin]

Sofa CP/RCP, earlier tech - I like your idea of mocing it earlier, but making it weaker

The base stats of the CBM are 13 CP/20 RCP. I would suggest something like 15 CP/18 RCP for the Sofa. This way, you could use the unit (which, being a Songhai unit, will have the "Amphibious" and "War canoe" promotions, giving it more mobility than most units), to approach tough targets (1 move + shoot) and benefit from the huge flanking bonus of the Mandekalu cavalry, without having to fear too much for the Sofas (with 15 CP, the Sofa can take more punishment, and it can heal quickly with the "Medic" promotion => this is not the kind of target you want to focus on when there is a Mandekalu cavalry next to it).

Scythed Chariot - the Carnyx was a horn use din warfare by celtic armies. I have no strong opinions about it, but no other promotion in the game gives a bonus vs archery units, so I think it's not all bad.

I know what a carnyx is (there is even a Gallish UM using it in this mod) : being French, my Celtic heritage is quite strong, and I like to study the history of my ancestors.
I was simply saying that this kind of instrument has nothing to do with a bonus toward melee and archer units : this could be more used for aura bonus/malus I think.
Also, I guess the reason why there is no bonus against archer units specifically is because these units are already very fragile (using an attribute for this would be overkill).
If we want to keep this promotion, I suggest using a name which is a reference to how the Celts used their chariot to ambush and harass their enemies by quickly deploying warriors next to their rearguard and modifying the bonus so that it focuses exclusively on foot archer/siege units (combined with "Slipstream", it would allow the SChariot to exploit breaches in enemy formations to inflict great damages to their backlines)
Maybe "Stabilitatem peditum" (the firmness of infantry), as a reference to the Book 4 chapter 33 of the Gallic wars ("Thus they display in battle the speed of horse, [together with] the firmness of infantry"), with a bonus like "+20 % RCS against archers and siege units" ? What do you think ?

 

[pineappledan]

I am saying that the whole „monopoly” idea boils down to the first Tambo with all consequences. Just another reason to let it go and come up with something new.

No it doesn't. It extra super doesn't. That’s incredibly Reductive

It’s a luxury. It can be traded, stolen, it gives happiness, it can be banned in WC. Calling it a free promotion is a gross oversimplification. It also robs the UC of the historical context it was meant to invoke.

The promotions given by the Coca monopoly specifically have to do with coca's use in treating altitude sickness, and as a pain/hunger/thirst suppressant which allows people to work harder. This has nothing to do with a Tambo directly. Tambos were built near and administered nearby Qullqas (hence the +2 to granaries), where coca was sometimes stored. The Inca royalty held a monopoly on coca production, and distributed coca as royal favours/rations.

Edit: removed things that were uncalled for. I know you’re trying to help, but I find criticism without actionable recommendations like this incredibly frustrating. I say "not actionable" because your recommendation would make the UC both less interactive and less historically accurate.

The last piece that is needed for coca is this one thing. I’m not much for sunk cost fallacies, but a decent amount of deliberation and work has been invested into this, including custom art assets and no small amount of research on a few people's part. You being that dismissive is NOT helpful. Can you please try to be a bit more constructive?

Spoiler :

Here's the other ideas Hinin and I had for the Incan UB, each with a short description of that they are IRL.

Spoiler :

Medieval UB (Observatory - Intihuatana) - literally "the hitching post of the sun", an Intihuatana was a structure used as part of the astronomic clock by Inca priests. There are several extant examples of Intihuatana which were used to mark the time for planting and at what altitude.
- The idea would be to have Inca be able to build observatories without the prerequisite policy, and much earlier. Perhaps giving a boost to Intihuatanas if the prerequisite policy was also later adopted by the player

Ancient UB (Granary - Qullqa) - storehouses for basically everything, not just agricultural products. The Inca had a central command economy at very high altitudes, so they were vulnerable to food shortages. The Qullqa stored potatoes, building materials, feathers, luxuries, tributes. Royal Qullqas housed the entire coca production of the Inca empire, which held a monopoly on coca, and distributed it to chieftains, nobility and for diplomatic purposes

Ancient/Classical/medieval UB (Caravansary/Customs House/Barracks - Tambo) - Relay station, Inn, Barracks, Administrative compound all rolled into one. They kept Chasquis ready to run messages, but also housed imperial garrisons and controlled the local Qullqas

Classical UB (Library - Yachaywasi) - Centre of learning within the Inca Empire. They taught customs, mythology, combat, and how to read the 'khipu', a system of knots on strings which were kept for administration. The khipu system was the closest thing the Inca had to a written language. Sons of young nobles were sent to Yachaywasis to be 're-educated' into Incan customs and foster pro-incan sympathies in client states.

Classical UB (Aqueduct - Chicheria) - Breweries/Speakeasies for the production and sale of Chicha, a traditional corn beer. This drink had religious/ceremonial uses, but also was a part of everyday life of the peasantry, who would drink chicha during festivals.

Penny for your thoughts, anyone? @Hinin? @adan_eslavo? @Blue Ghost? Are we wasting our time trying to get coca to work or should we be looking elsewhere?

I know what a carnyx is (there is even a Gallish UM using it in this mod) : being French, my Celtic heritage is quite strong, and I like to study the history of my ancestors.
I was simply saying that this kind of instrument has nothing to do with a bonus toward melee and archer units : this could be more used for aura bonus/malus I think.
Also, I guess the reason why there is no bonus against archer units specifically is because these units are already very fragile (using an attribute for this would be overkill).
If we want to keep this promotion, I suggest using a name which is a reference to how the Celts used their chariot to ambush and harass their enemies by quickly deploying warriors next to their rearguard and modifying the bonus so that it focuses exclusively on foot archer/siege units (combined with "Slipstream", it would allow the SChariot to exploit breaches in enemy formations to inflict great damages to their backlines)
Maybe "Stabilitatem peditum" (the firmness of infantry), as a reference to the Book 4 chapter 33 of the Gallic wars ("Thus they display in battle the speed of horse, [together with] the firmness of infantry"), with a bonus like "+20 % RCS against archers and siege units" ? What do you think ?

The Carnyx promo was @adan_eslavo's baby; I have no strong opinions. As far as I'm concerned the scythe promotion is so interesting it really doesn't matter what else is done with the unit.

If "Stabilitatem peditum" were to be adopted as the name of the promotion, I would recommend we go further and replace slipstream with an identical promotion called "Mobilitatem equitum". Slipstream is a nautical reference, so it would make sense if it had a more relevant name anyways.

 

[pineappledan]

All the text issues @Hinin pointed out have been dealt with now. Thanks again for doing that.

I modified the art defaults on yellow brow to give a different formation.

I did a little cleaning on Slaganz and Yamato, but I do not think I fixed anything. There were a lot of extraneous parentheses, but I didn't see anything obviously wrong.

Re: Yamato's notification on build, I added one into the lua. Once again, total n00b lua writer, so if someone could check if I did okay I would be obliged.

No changes to scythed chariot promotions. I'll leave that up to Adan if he wants to change it.

I looked into kampong and I am at a loss as to how I could prevent it from being buildable in fresh water. If it's any consolation, they can't be built adjacent, so not ALL the lake tiles will be better than Aztec

I'm going to make issues on GitHub for the lua ones

Re: the Tarkhan movement, I'm guessing that it is simply not possible to have more than +1 movement over the unit's max at the beginning of a turn. I don't think the unit is spending 2 moves on the first move, what I think is happening is that the unit is moving once, then its max movement is rechecked, and the computer sets the moves to the maximum available: 2, without ever giving that 3rd movement.

We may just have to take it as is and change the text to just say that the settler and worker get +1 move when starting turn with Tarkhan. They can still get up to 4 moves with the progress policy.

 

[Hinin]

No changes to scythed chariot promotions. I'll leave that up to Adan if he wants to change it.

Ok. So what do you think about it, @adan_eslavo ?

I looked into kampong and I am at a loss as to how I could prevent it from being buildable in fresh water. If it's any consolation, they can't be built adjacent, so not ALL the lake tiles will be better than Aztec

Well... Now I know who I will attack in priority next time I play with the Aztecs. Ximicacan !

Re: the Tarkhan movement, I'm guessing that it is simply not possible to have more than +1 movement over the unit's max at the beginning of a turn. I don't think the unit is spending 2 moves on the first move, what I think is happening is that the unit is moving once, then its max movement is rechecked, and the computer sets the moves to the maximum available: 2, without ever giving that 3rd movement.

There are maybe other solutions :
- the Tarkhan could give to Workers and Settlers beginning their turn on the same tile as the UM the promotion "Sacred path", which give +2 MP, until the end of their turn (but I don't think it will work, since, when acquiring the promotion, the units will only have their max MP augmented, and so they'll have to wait the end of the turn to de facto gain additionnal MP)
- Is there a way to modify the "transfer movement to GGeneral" promotion in order to make a new version where it affects only Settlers and Workers ? I think it could be the best solution.

 

[adan_eslavo]

@pineappledan, @Infixo Why not just make Coca spawn adjacent to city and stay there forevev? Monopolies are working, there is no problem with capturing issue etc. It is compromise to what we have and how to save it. If you don't like it then just think of smth new.

I would agree with pdan that "Carnyx" is only simple addon to Scythe promotion. Simple name is also thing we were talking about many pages earlier. I would stay with what we have. If you want I can adjust values to be more "significant".

 

[pineappledan]

Three issues with having it spawn elsewhere:
- No art assets exist for Coca. The aymara mod used the Cocoa art, so the two would be indistinguishable in-game
- spawning a new luxury resource on a tile is the exact same thing that the Indonesian Candi already does.
- (minor) Tambos were administrative buildings, so they had nothing to do with cultivating coca; only storing it. Tying it to the city/building reinforces that.

I think that tying the free resource to a dummy building and just calculating the monopoly off lua is the best bet if we are to keep the coca resource at all. Otherwise I would rather throw the idea out entirely. Inca doesn't need a land-based luxury in addition to a UI, and the only thing that makes this unique luxury any different from brazilwood or indonesia's is that it isn't on the map.

If we were going to scrap the tambo, I would lean towards @Hinin's observatory replacement. That's different. As @Blue Ghost and I said at the time, it would cause serious issues with the rationalism tree, so we would have to make that policy boost the Inca observatory as compensation.

regarding carnyx, this is my opinion. Either change both names or change nothing

If "Stabilitatem peditum" were to be adopted as the name of the promotion, I would recommend we go further and replace slipstream with an identical promotion called "Mobilitatem equitum". Slipstream is a nautical reference, so it would make sense if it had a more relevant name anyways.

 

[adan_eslavo]

But it breaks monopoly window saying you have 0 of 5 sources of Coca and a monopoly? I'm with @Infixo - change this completely. We can add those promotions to tambo as well.