50 Shades of Black and White [Off-Topic Discussion]

[Zack]

Windu trying to kill an unarmed old man who surrendered and was pleading for his life?

You're not remembering the scene correctly.

1. The Jedi come to ARREST Palpatine.

2. Palpatine says "you can't arrest me, I'm a dictator"

3. Palpatine ATTACKS FIRST, killing three Jedi in like five seconds.

4. Windu defends himself.

5. Mace Windu is just standing there, when Palpatine suddenly attacks him with lightning.



(sidenote: Christ, what an awful scene. My God. The acting, the fighting... just shameful.)

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

You're not remembering the scene correctly.

1. The Jedi come to ARREST Palpatine.

For what crime?

You can't just arrest people for being Sith. You have to explain what law he broke.

What law was that, Zack?

2. Palpatine says "you can't arrest me, I'm a dictator"

That's not what he said, he asked Windu if he was threatening him. Windu said the Senate would decide his fate. He responded by saying he was the head of the Senate. (And by the way, the courts should decide his fate. Prove he committed a crime in court.) He then pointed out they were simply committing treason, which is a crime that has a punishment of execution in our modern and civilized society.

What, exactly, is the charge? That he's a Sith?

So what?

Is there a law against not believing the Jedi philosophy of taking children away from their parents and teaching them from the age of a toddler how to fight with a deadly weapon and avoid procreating?

That's just WEIRD.

3. Palpatine ATTACKS FIRST, killing three Jedi in like five seconds.

They pulled out lethal weapons first, and were not arresting him for any actual crime. What were the charges? No charges were ever listed.

4. Windu defends himself.

Uh uh. Palpatine defends himself against their unprovoked threats.

5. Mace Windu is just standing there, when Palpatine suddenly attacks him with lightning

The dude just kicked away his lightsaber, and was threatening Palpatine with a weapon that can kill you pretty much instantly.

Palpatine continues to defend himself.

Again, what were the charges? What crime? What sin is simply BEING A SITH? No reason just "We're Jedi, here are our lightsabers, might makes right, you being a Sith means we can just lock you up. (What evidence? What warrant? Just the testimony of one Anakin Skywalker, a Jedi you already don't even trust, who goes on to KILL YOUNGLINGS? Yeah, he's a really reliable witness. Your accuser is a mass murderer!)

What's shameful are the Jedi and their blatantly illegal actions.

They got what they deserved.

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

I guarantee you, a bunch of men with guns show up to "arrest" the President, and have no list of crimes to charge him with, and no warrant, and those guys get shot by the secret service.

What's the problem? People don't like that Palpatine is badass enough to defend himself and doesn't need secret service protection?

Just jealous of his obvious skill, that's all. Jealousy is a path to the dark side, you know.

 

[Takhisis]

(And by the way, the courts should decide his fate. Prove he committed a crime in court.)

No, he was to be brought before the Senate for impeachment.

What's shameful are the Jedi and their blatantly illegal actions.

They got what they deserved.

*is

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

Interesting note, in the United States, the Congress has the power to declare the punishment of Treason.

The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

Since Palpatine is the head of the Senate with emergency wartime powers that allow him to make unilateral decisions, he likely has the authority to declare the Punishment of Treason on his own. (Most likely, since most of this is modeled on the same kind of representative democracy that we have)

That means that under the new rules of the Galactic Senate, the Supreme Chancellor has the legal authority to declare you a traitor and personally execute you without a trial.

 

[Takhisis]

No, it doesn't. The Galactic Republic, believe it or not, is not ruled by the United States of America.

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

No, he was to be brought before the Senate for impeachment.

Then make a motion in the Senate, where that kind of a request belongs. Don't just point your lightsabers at him willy nilly.

Go to the Senate, list off the charges, get a warrant for his arrest.

What's the problem? Don't have any evidence he did anything illegal? Must be a pretty weak case. You know, there are procedures that have to be followed. People get released from custody all the time because the police acted illegally and blatantly trod on someone's legal rights.

Palpatine was simply exercising his legal right to defend himself against an illegal arrest, and then rightfully and legally determined they were traitors, and executed them personally, as Sith Lords are wont to do. Can't leave that sort of thing to a stormtrooper, after all. Jedi are "too dangerous to be left alive", after all.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

No, it doesn't. The Galactic Republic, believe it or not, is not ruled by the United States of America.

It's similar enough. Prove it doesn't operate that way.

Besides, isn't the way we operate our government an example of an accepted legal authority in a civilized nation?

Palpatine was behaving in quite the civilized manner, and within his legal rights and authority given to him by the duly elected representatives of the people of the Galactic Republic. That's legal authority you can't just dismiss by pointing a lightsaber at it.

Go get a warrant. Simple request.

 

[Zack]

It's similar enough. Prove it doesn't operate that way.

Besides, isn't the way we operate our government an example of an accepted legal authority in a civilized nation?

Palpatine was behaving in quite the civilized manner, and within his legal rights and authority given to him by the duly elected representatives of the people of the Galactic Republic. That's legal authority you can't just dismiss by pointing a lightsaber at it.

Go get a warrant. Simple request.

Are you kidding me? Maybe your analogy would make sense if the POTUS was a dictator who controlled all three branches of government?

And Palpatine's crime was obviously being a dictator. You're just being deliberately obtuse to make your ridiculous devil's advocate argument.

I'd also like to hear how obliterating an entire PEACEFUL planet that posed ZERO threat was in self-defense.

 

[Takhisis]

Prove it does, Pizzaboy. If you're going to say that your defense is based on some law, then tell us whence said law comes.

 

[Takhisis]

What do you expect, a perfect leader that never has to use force? You're living in a dream world, Neo.

askthepizzaguy has been taken over by Agent BSmith! He got his name capitalised as a side-effect of the conversion! He's spreading!

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

Do we deny that Palpatine, also known by his title of Sidious, is a Sith Lord? Of course not. He's actually quite proud of his accomplishments.

Do we deny that Palpatine uses the dark side of the Force? Of course not. Jedi try to avoid doing so, sometimes they fail, but it's not illegal to know the dark side in the first place. Knowledge isn't illegal, and censorship is tyranny, by the way.

Do we deny that Palpatine used his abilities to seek and gain political power and legal authority? Of course not. It's pretty much how the Jedi become leaders of the Jedi council. They use their abilities to prove they are worthy of a seat on the council. Politicians use their connections and money and their personal charisma to gain power all the time. Again, none of this is illegal.

Nothing Palpatine did while Supreme Chancellor was outside of the scope of the legal authority he was granted by the Senate itself.

To deny these truths is to deny the legal authority of the Chancellor and the Senate itself, which is to deny the legal authority of the people of the Galactic Republic to rule themselves.

When the Jedi tried to illegally arrest him without a warrant or evidence or even charge him with a crime, they were trying to overthrow the legally elected and legally ruling representative of the people, while threatening his life. And that made them traitors.

Legally speaking, that is what actually happened.

The joke is that I'm correct. He was totally evil, yet the Jedi had no leg to stand on when they tried to arrest him, and Palpatine got away with it for a long time because the Jedi sucked at their job.

Come on now, it's their job to prevent stuff like this from happening, and they failed miserably.

 

[Zack]

Do we deny that Palpatine, also known by his title of Sidious, is a Sith Lord? Of course not. He's actually quite proud of his accomplishments.

Do we deny that Palpatine uses the dark side of the Force? Of course not. Jedi try to avoid doing so, sometimes they fail, but it's not illegal to know the dark side in the first place. Knowledge isn't illegal, and censorship is tyranny, by the way.

Do we deny that Palpatine used his abilities to seek and gain political power and legal authority? Of course not. It's pretty much how the Jedi become leaders of the Jedi council. They use their abilities to prove they are worthy of a seat on the council. Politicians use their connections and money and their personal charisma to gain power all the time. Again, none of this is illegal.

Nothing Palpatine did while Supreme Chancellor was outside of the scope of the legal authority he was granted by the Senate itself.

To deny these truths is to deny the legal authority of the Chancellor and the Senate itself, which is to deny the legal authority of the people of the Galactic Republic to rule themselves.

When the Jedi tried to illegally arrest him without a warrant or evidence or even charge him with a crime, they were trying to overthrow the legally elected and legally ruling representative of the people. And that made them traitors.

Legally speaking, that is what actually happened.

The joke is that I'm correct. He was totally evil, yet the Jedi had no leg to stand on when they tried to arrest him, and Palpatine got away with it for a long time because the Jedi sucked at their job.

Come on now, it's their job to prevent stuff like this from happening, and they failed miserably.

One word: Hitler.

(bold mine)

 

[Zack]

Also, you're changing the goalposts. Your initial argument was that Palpatine was not evil.

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

Are you kidding me? Maybe your analogy would make sense if the POTUS was a dictator who controlled all three branches of government?

And Palpatine's crime was obviously being a dictator.

Look up the definition of "crime" and get back to me.

One can legally be a dictator, dude. The Senate legally and deliberately gave him that power.

You're just being deliberately obtuse to make your ridiculous devil's advocate argument.

So? It hurts even more that my obtuse argument is completely correct.

I'd also like to hear how obliterating an entire PEACEFUL planet that posed ZERO threat was in self-defense.

You refer to Alderaan, I take it?

That was after these events. Well after. You want to talk about that I will, I'm referring to the fact that the Jedi had literally no reason to arrest him at the time.

Furthermore, prove the Emperor ordered the destruction of Alderaan, and that it wasn't the decision made by one Imperial named Grand Moff Tarkin.

I'm afraid the truth of the matter is, you have no evidence the Emperor was even involved.

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

Also, you're changing the goalposts. Your initial argument was that Palpatine was not evil.

My initial argument was that Palpatine was heroic, and not a villain.

He was pretty heroic, from the point of view of the people he governed (who kept re-electing him) and from the Sith's point of view, who revere him as one of the greatest Sith of all time.

Since the Jedi were trying to illegally arrest him, they were behaving like villains.

His being evil is not actually a crime, and neither here nor there.

 

[Zack]

Look up the definition of "crime" and get back to me.

One can legally be a dictator, dude. The Senate legally and deliberately gave him that power.

I was arguing your initial point, not the one you changed it to once you realized your initial point was bogus.

Palpatine was rather heroic.

....

See? Not a villain at all.

And look up the definition of crime.

• an action or activity that, although not illegal, is considered to be evil, shameful, or wrong.

His being evil is not actually a crime, and neither here nor there.

Who cares about the legality? That has nothing to do with him being heroic or villanous.

 

[Takhisis]

The people he ruled never elected him. The kings nominate senators who, in turn, chose Palpatine fom among their number.

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

Prove it does, Pizzaboy. If you're going to say that your defense is based on some law, then tell us whence said law comes.

Burden of proof.

The prosecution has to prove Palpatine committed a crime according to the laws of the Galactic Republic.

Got a copy of those laws?

If not, then the Prosecution sucks at their job, too. And you automatically lose this argument because it's a legal one. You have to have the actual laws to back you up to win a legal argument.

Since they're fictional laws, your job is pretty hard. I don't blame you for losing, but I will ruthlessly defend my client against your sloppy prosecution anyway. He's promised me 10,000 Republic dataries, and a Queen's wardrobe. I plan to sell it in Galactic Ebay.

Maybe wear some of the negligees. I trust that's not actually illegal either, is it?

If so, I'll see you in court, mister Prosecutor.

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

The people he ruled never elected him. The kings nominate senators who, in turn, chose Palpatine fom among their number.

Sounds like a system badly in need of reform, yet still completely legal.