7.4x Balance Thread

[wapamingo]

I support point (4); but there should be large penalties or cost in doing so.

I suggest have an option to "Buy the House Out" of the city (a button available to any unit?) for 500 g or 1000 g. Maybe have a X turn ban on that house spreading to that city again or ever?

But then again, supporting a competing house could do the trick as well? I have not played with Houses for too much - hope I understood correctly that this is how they work...

 

[Pohlmann]

lucian cold iron + pool of tears = gamewin

you can easily toy with your enemies, raze cities at will and so on

tech requirement needed for transforming

edit: also please remove this barb malus . if in turn 17 2 combat 2 skeletons enter my culture and im dead in turn 18 its just ********. i even started with a warrior instead of a worker and its still impossible to hold them back

 

[Tascani]

The effect of the "Occasional Promotions Mod" on the gameplay is huge.

You can throw fodder at 30% vs. Enemies getting like 2-3 Level and a Promotion. Gaining 2-4 Combat Promos in one Turn.

I really want this change a Gameoption to enable/disable it.

Go to wage 50% fights is very lucrative now.
If you win: You get loads of xp and 50% for a free Promotion.
If you loose: The enemy gets modeate xp and 50% for a free Promotion.

I think the fact that attacking offers way more XP than defending is a gap, great enough.

Still I like the idea of the mod.
The chances should maybe be limited to max. 15% / 10% / 5% making it a rare effect.

 

[Seven05]

The diplomatic penalty for razing cities may need some adjustment. Since IDW changes influence (culture) with combat and taking a city normally involves combat and the penalty for razing cities is based on the highest culture of the city (which ends up being yours in many cases)... well, you get the idea.

In my current game as the Calabim I was able to raze all but one city (playing as the butcher so I only wanted one for building their units and buildings) and only suffered a -1 penalty for having razed one of their cities. I want to say I sacked 7 or 8 cities total, since the Balseraphs loved me so much and this was giving me no penalty we'd go from war to pleased (even friendly one time) each time I took a break to let my city defender & settler production catch up with my vampiric hoarde.

I can't really think of a good way to improve this though except maybe basing it entirely off the original owner, not sure that's really an improvement though.

 

[Calavente]

scorpion clan goblin archers are a big OP :
-they have 4str as barb axemen or sabertooth tigers,
-they have ranged attack so they don't attack you unless you are really damaged : and that happens when you have no counter : no sane 3 unit attacks a 4str unit !
-they can enter borders so are more dangerous than big animals that may have (or not) the same attack strength.
-they have a big spawn rate (higher spawn rate than barbs axemen as they appear from a fort, almost independantly of barbs cities/ number of barb units)
so : they are more fearsome than barbs axemen, lizardmen, skellies and all the wildlife !!

+they come too early, as soon as animal and skellis !
at the time they appear you only have scouts and warriors :
you have nothing to counter-attack them with : neither in the wilderness, nor in your own lands.
the only solution is "maybe" to get some copper... to have bronze weapons and that's not a guaranty.

 

[Sephi]

scorpion archers were already reduced to 2/3 in a recent patch

 

[Calavente]

cool !!
(well not in the last patch as I'm currently playing with it ...)

oups checked the changelog... it would mean I'm playing with 7.3 ?
Arg I just started a game especially for using the "new" features of 7.4... I'll have to begin anew !

I thought I dl the 7.4 and launched the .exe....

I'll check on it when I'll have my civ PC...
sorry for the trouble.

 

[Sephi]

The effect of the "Occasional Promotions Mod" on the gameplay is huge.

You can throw fodder at 30% vs. Enemies getting like 2-3 Level and a Promotion. Gaining 2-4 Combat Promos in one Turn.

I really want this change a Gameoption to enable/disable it.

Go to wage 50% fights is very lucrative now.
If you win: You get loads of xp and 50% for a free Promotion.
If you loose: The enemy gets modeate xp and 50% for a free Promotion.

I think the fact that attacking offers way more XP than defending is a gap, great enough.

Still I like the idea of the mod.
The chances should maybe be limited to max. 15% / 10% / 5% making it a rare effect.

I agree that gaining 4 Combat promotions by winning a lucky battle is too much (unless you defeat a worldunit like Orthus). Are there more balance issues than this with the modcomp?

 

[kavark]

I agree that gaining 4 Combat promotions by winning a lucky battle is too much (unless you defeat a worldunit like Orthus). Are there more balance issues than this with the modcomp?

I think you should also limit the kind of promotions an unit can get with modcomp. Higher tier Promotions like combat IV, combat V, woodman II, shock II, cover II, flanking II, and etc. should not be possible promotions that an unit can receive via modcomp. At least it should not be available when fighting normal units.

I wonder if it is possible to tweak the percentage of the modcomp so that when fighting with regular units, the chance of gaining a free promotion is lowered but when fighting a world/national unit, the chance of gaining a free promotion is increased.

 

[Seven05]

I think you should also limit the kind of promotions an unit can get with modcomp. Higher tier Promotions like combat IV, combat V, woodman II, shock II, cover II, flanking II, and etc. should not be possible promotions that an unit can receive via modcomp. At least it should not be available when fighting normal units.

I think limiting the available promotions would work great. I think having a chance to gain the level 1 promotions against the specific unitcombat you just fought is ideal (e.g. Shock) as well as possibly City Garrison I if you're defending your city and City Raider I when attack cities. The promotions like Scourge and Demon Slaying could work well here too. I would exclude all of the others (expecially Combat 1-5) as they end up reducing the importance of high level, well promoted units. With this small of a selection you could keep the chance high as it's a cool effect.

For 'normal' units defeating world units, perhaps a chance to earn some of the heroic promotions instead? Heroic Strength and Heroic Defense come to mind as the most obvious, while powerful promotions for non hero units they wouldn't be given out often so it shouldn't become a balance problem.

 

[Sephi]

the combat promotions should probably get a lower priority compared to the other promotions.

I don't think the higher prereq promotions like shock2 should be excluded. That way you have an incentive that the experienced units lead the army, not let some wannabe warrior do all the tough fighting because they are cheap to replace . On average a Unit will get 1 promotion through battle before it dies (50% to get 1, 25% to get 2, 12,5% to get 3, etc.).

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

goblin archers start at 2/3 , but then instead of becoming 3/4 they become 4 both atk and def, not sure if it's intended.

 

[Pohlmann]

got a whole list of balanceproblems.

short list:
- techpace way too slow
- without beelining you are dead (3 axemen against 12 warriors)
-too low research at the beginning. e.g. clan not getting anywhere because they cant research half the techs other civs can.
-good start = dead neighbour
-bad start = dead player
-orthus beyond imbalanced and disappointing
-miner trait way overpowered
-barbs prefering pillage over attacking -> goblin archers camp your cities. does what every game should avoid namely kill all fun that could possibly be left
-still no Fuc*ing goblins but only archers.
-autopromos available from start -> 1 lucky fight = dead neighbour
- vadalis just a present for fol researchers. benefit without costs
- vadalis ranger way op. starts off with str 10 and costs as much as a normal ranger
- mind stapling too expensive
- forests preventing tiles to grant river gold strengthens mining even more and makes bad starts even worse

suggestion: increase palace gold like ff did. atm a bad start means that you lose the game.

[Whine]
i play(ed) a hotseatgame with 6 civilizations.
The Sidar died to Orthus without ANY chance to defend theirselves. Remove Hero promo from him or at least make him attack anything instead of waiting 50 turns at his spawnpoint and then walking towards the next enemy and finishing him off with str 12 against strength 3 warriors. fight was: 3 goblin archers + orthus against 6 unpromoted warriors (where to gather xp if theres nobody to fight but archers camping on forested hills?) This is far from normal imbalance. It's just pure disappointment. u neednt even try to defend yourself. just leave the city alone.

bronze tech way too strong WAAAAYYY. Khazad had an ok start and went for mining ->agriculture -> bronze
Bannor went for agriculture -> animal husbandry -> mining -> bronze
khazad levels axemen against 2 archers to shock promotion and with 3 axemen 12 warriors are just more free xp.

its just like 1 wrong tech and you are dead without any chance left.
[/Whine]

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I'd have to agree about Orthus being a tad bit too powerful: I can manage him in one way or the other, but the AI has a harder time. I've seen civs destroyed by him in the early game. so maybe he should come a little later.

Acheron is way worse though, especially after the introduction of the disciples of Acheron. both for me and the AI, having him spawn near you means you WILL eventually succumb to the neverending stream of enchanted blade barbarians. they just come in numbers you can't possibly manage.

I wholeheartedly agree with the suggestion of raising commerce given by palace to balance those dreadful starts with no readily available commerce tiles. I also agree that goblin archers outnumber normal goblins heavily, that the occasional promotions modcomp needs a nerf ( since it kinda doubles the positive outcome from a lucky fight, XP + free promo. you can tell it's aimed towards vanilla where promotions are half as good as in FFH. ) and that house vadalis seems way too strong ( +1 free mana source from each city with it is uber, especially when you can mass build units with affinity for it )

I'd also decrease the maintenance penalty the human gets from units on higher difficulty levels, I'm currently playing on Emperor and it's very hard to deal with it, I need units but I cannot afford them

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

oh yeah, almost forgot. the issue with Acheron lies in the interation with the Barbarian World gameoption, which makes him spawn way too early. it would be fine if he spawned later after you had time to se up some infrastructure. it would also be great if it took longer for him to get built, so that if you see him getting built in a barb city near you you have time to capture the city. that coupled with a tech prereq should make him fine. he's lots of fun as long as he's not right next to a civ hammering them constantly and preventing their expansion.

 

[wapamingo]

Houses of Erebus:

Very interesting to play with, definetly a new dynamic to learn.

However, on conquest binge when conquering a city with already 2-3 established houses that city now costs you +20g per turn. This is a very high cost given that: most building are destroyed during conquest, culture around the city is most likely not yours (with that game play option turned on) so that city will not be able to contribute in any way (and usually does not) until quite a few turns afterwards. However, with houses present the cost of conquering a city becomes very staggering. Add that to a blitz-type campaign and before you're done your economy is trully in shambles - especially when a small civ goes against a big civ.

From a 'realist' point of view - if city is conquered and it lost most if not all of its buildings - what does a noble house do there in the ruins?

My suggestions is this: Can we make noble houses be present in a city through a building they build. So if there is this building then they are there? Like a "Thrashak Battle Halls" or "Trading Halls of Ghallada". So, if you conquer a city there is a chance that the house leaves that city together with some of the populace that leaves or is killed when you conquer that city.

or:

Make a unit available that drives the house out of the city (available at currency or trade?). I dislike that as a "most high aristocrat who presides over life and death" I cannot tell some minor house to "buzz off" if they happen to spread into one of my cities.

 

[kavark]

Just out of curiosity, I thought the adjustment rate for barbarian strength was slowed. I am currently playing a Wild Mana 7.44 Normal speed monarch Amurites large ErebusContinent 12 players game and I am experiencing str 5 barb axeman rushing at me by around turn 135. Is that normal?

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

spotted a couple odde things in my current game. namely, the Sheaim went for Drama early and they were building a theatre in a newly founded city early in the game, which would have taken them a long time.

aside from this, it seems that civs are having a hard time handling raging barbs + barb world. they often lose cities to them, so perhaps they should build some more defense before expanding. this is with both No Orthus and No Acheron.

the Malakim still have an outrageous score, even though they like to expand slowly their score is always around 1.5 that of the second civ

 

[TowerWizard]

I think the main thing abiout balancing issues is that there is too much added too fast. More civ, leaders, traits, mechanics, rules... If this game is to stand any chance whatsoever of becoming balanced I suggest to stop adding new featuers and just working with the ones already inplemented.

1. Finish the noble houses! Only one of them can actually revolt right now, but there is 9 houses! Fix the support mechanic and think about the power of house features as opposed to how early the house will be incorporated. That is, the hunter house should be weaker than the magic house, since the hunter house comes before the magic one. There should also be ways to remove houses, as mentioned above.

2. Flesh out the civipedia! There are many many texts missing, and many features not mentioned at all. For instance, what is the benefit of the Doviello Camp? It is not mentioned in the wiki. I don't meenn the flavor texts either, but the text that explains the functions of things, and maybe some strategy tips.

3. Fix errors! The descriptions in the BUG hints do not always correstopnd to true statements. For instance, it says that "some civics get better when you have a state religion present" and mentions God King. Also, the Accelerate spell seems to have no effect at all and have no info in the wiki.

4. Add civ specific graphics!

5. Tweak the leaders! Some of them s*ck compared to others.

6. Barbarian heroes should be nerfed, as others mention.

7. Exploring dungeons and the like should have rewards scaling with the number of turns played. Getting 50 gold in turn 250 is nothing, and finding a Str 8 giant in turn 15 is a game-killer. Not to mention finding a deciple before the religion is founded, or great people early in the game.

8. The new mechanic of equipment... I know it is an optional thing. I will not say anything about it, more than to suggest that you work on the above points before continuing to tweak the equipment option.

 

[Sephi]

Just out of curiosity, I thought the adjustment rate for barbarian strength was slowed. I am currently playing a Wild Mana 7.44 Normal speed monarch Amurites large ErebusContinent 12 players game and I am experiencing str 5 barb axeman rushing at me by around turn 135. Is that normal?

that's normal. On deity you can meet them at turn 90 or so