7.4x Balance Thread

[Sephi]

I think the main thing abiout balancing issues is that there is too much added too fast. More civ, leaders, traits, mechanics, rules... If this game is to stand any chance whatsoever of becoming balanced I suggest to stop adding new featuers and just working with the ones already inplemented.

1. Finish the noble houses! Only one of them can actually revolt right now, but there is 9 houses! Fix the support mechanic and think about the power of house features as opposed to how early the house will be incorporated. That is, the hunter house should be weaker than the magic house, since the hunter house comes before the magic one. There should also be ways to remove houses, as mentioned above.

2. Flesh out the civipedia! There are many many texts missing, and many features not mentioned at all. For instance, what is the benefit of the Doviello Camp? It is not mentioned in the wiki. I don't meenn the flavor texts either, but the text that explains the functions of things, and maybe some strategy tips.

3. Fix errors! The descriptions in the BUG hints do not always correstopnd to true statements. For instance, it says that "some civics get better when you have a state religion present" and mentions God King. Also, the Accelerate spell seems to have no effect at all and have no info in the wiki.

4. Add civ specific graphics!

5. Tweak the leaders! Some of them s*ck compared to others.

6. Barbarian heroes should be nerfed, as others mention.

7. Exploring dungeons and the like should have rewards scaling with the number of turns played. Getting 50 gold in turn 250 is nothing, and finding a Str 8 giant in turn 15 is a game-killer. Not to mention finding a deciple before the religion is founded, or great people early in the game.

8. The new mechanic of equipment... I know it is an optional thing. I will not say anything about it, more than to suggest that you work on the above points before continuing to tweak the equipment option.

1.) I intend to finish the houses but it takes time
2.) Patch 7.5 will add a lot of documentation. Feel free to point out specific cases where documentation is needed
3.) The Accelerate Spell has an effect and I updated the civlilopedia entry. The description of God King has nothing to do with BUG (which is a base civ4 mod). The FFH Hint25 is wrong on this. It has nothing to do with either the balance of this mod or how fast content is added. I want to remove wrong help texts so please keep reporting them.
4.) If one of the artists in the FFH community makes something amazing I will definetly take a look at it. But good art takes time and I am happy with all the amazing things that have already been done.
5.) That's basic FFH design. Leaders aren't supposed to be equal in Power as civs aren't equal in power.
8.) Currently I am not working on the equipment. Tesb is doing some amazing work there which I merge from time to time.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I think an excellent idea would be having the Illian Palace have the same effect as the temple of the hand ( BFC turns to snow ) . currently tundra starts are very damaging for them, it's very sad really. in my current game they are pushovers just cause of that

 

[scutarii]

viva la revolution of oasis!!!

people in erebus are afriad of hell taking over, glacier returning, jungle absorving everything, land becoming haunted, but I'm tellin you, man, all this is nothing compared to oasis swarm!!!

 

[graywarden]

I could not find a method to leave the cult of esus, which there has been some discussion about. In my current test the advantages definately dont outweigh the disadvantages, so this really puts me in a spot.

Maybe some type of "trial" (probably a good word) should be implemented where, you have so many turns to decide if the CoE is for you or not. Sure we can all figure that out the hard way a couple of times, but a bad experience does tend to throw some players off.

In this case there is not enough information up front to make an informed decision, I would reference mine and Gekko's post on the 7.4 bug thread if i could figure out how to do that.. as well..... haha

 

[graywarden]

Cult of Esus,

One last post on this and I will try to stop, as I mentioned on the 7.4 bug thread:

1 Nature Mode
1 Enchantment Mode
Clerics
Adepts/Mages
Bambur

All of which is nullified "magically" upon acceptance of CoE, not a single spell has been cast since I accepted.

This is really the point of Gekko and I's observation. CoE was much more useful as a Full Religion where the tradeoff made more sense. All I have to show for the price right now is the one Night Watchmen/Enforcer and the ability to spread the CoE, and that units have some CoE abilities (which I currently really dont need).

I prefered the CoE the way it was before to the way it is currently. Those stealthy abilities are an elitist/specialist abilities and skill, if every unit has access to them, well then you might as well make it a racial thing, and make the cult of esus a race, not a religion or a cult.

There should be a tradeoff/price for those abilities, but that equation needs to be brung into balance. Maybe a simple mechanic of this would be that if you accept the CoE, it is in the single city (founded or accepted). THAT city unit production is affected by the tradeoff/price and Esus units can only be produced in that city. CoE can be spread to other cities but only manually and with the bloodprice. This gives the player the option to increase the CoE as an empire wide option or as a specialist option.

This seems to make more sense to me, and I just thought of it as I was posting.. haha.

 

[graywarden]

Ok this is the Last-Last Post......

We have two great places to "switch" to and from the "Cult of Esus" on our Civics Screen.

We have the Membership:

Overcouncil
Undercouncil
Council of Esus

We have the Civ Specivic Civics:
though this doesnt obviously fit as well as Membership

The play mechanics definately need to be balanced. My test as Bannor is drastically affected by adopting CoE, if I wasnt testing, I would have hit reset by now.

 

[Kalina]

We have the Membership:

Overcouncil
Undercouncil
Council of Esus

What if someone wanted to be part of Undercouncil and Cult of Esus at the same time ?

 

[graywarden]

What if someone wanted to be part of Undercouncil and Cult of Esus at the same time ?

Ahh good point, then maybe the second choice would be better after all. Right now the Faerie Courts are there now only. If nothing else it would be a good temporary fix to be able to unjoin, because now you are stuck with it and its ramifications known and unknown. Make me pay a price, fine, but give me a choice to do so.

 

[Valkrionn]

Technically, the choice to do so would be the initial popup.

 

[graywarden]

Technically, the choice to do so would be the initial popup.

Technically this is true, but you dont know that it is an irreversible one with no recourse. You are stuck with it to the end of the game as it stands now. Which of course is still being tested as it is a new feature, which is modified and balanced by the testing process. ie: feedback by the consumer....

 

[Valkrionn]

Oh, I agree with you, I'm just saying that technically there IS a choice. One method would be to allow you to back out (for a price...), another would be to document exactly what the Cult means for you so you can make informed decisions.

 

[graywarden]

Oh, I agree with you, I'm just saying that technically there IS a choice. One method would be to allow you to back out (for a price...), another would be to document exactly what the Cult means for you so you can make informed decisions.

Absolutely, there should be a blood price of some nature or another. I saw this discussion on another thread and wasnt sure what it was about. Haha... I know now.

Its kind of blind siding right now, especially in light of the way it was before as a religion. You go into it thinking it will be different, but not THAT different. haha.
It just needs to be flushed out, like the long term effect of not being able to use any of your mana nodes/spells/units that you had set up previously.

Just because you were out late one night and woke up and had been married. I need and asprin and an annullment. haha. Pay the lawyer and learn from your mistakes. haha.

 

[scutarii]

stephanos instead of doing what he was suppose to do, parked himself to the nearest hill giant fort and did not move. Easy prey.

 

[Shasarak]

Technically this is true, but you dont know that it is an irreversible one with no recourse. You are stuck with it to the end of the game as it stands now. Which of course is still being tested as it is a new feature, which is modified and balanced by the testing process. ie: feedback by the consumer....

Exactly - there should be some way to get out once you find out exactly how awful it is. I had to quit my last game after finding myself crippled by the Cult.

 

[graywarden]

Shutting down my Bannor test now, between the CoE issue, a Baron who cant win with two to one odds (loaded three times/three differnt battles (just wasnt his day i guess), and teh fact that Mazatl was just trouncing the scoreboard, it was time to start a new test.

Im going to load custom games at this point so I can make sure Mazatl is one of the players, and monitor him to see if what I have seen is a pattern or just a random event. But I got a feeling he is overbuffed somehow, expands like crazy, techs way out in front, and of course devours wonders like they are candy. (at least in my bannor test anyway).

I will let everyone know what I find if my suspicions are true or not.

 

[Sephi]

Its kind of blind siding right now, especially in light of the way it was before as a religion. You go into it thinking it will be different, but not THAT different. haha.
It just needs to be flushed out, like the long term effect of not being able to use any of your mana nodes/spells/units that you had set up previously.

I have changed it so that to join the Cult you now need to Research Deception Tech (gives no other benefits), need to create the join the cult ritual and say yes to a popup. Should be enough of a warning

 

[graywarden]

I have changed it so that to join the Cult you now need to Research Deception Tech (gives no other benefits), need to create the join the cult ritual and say yes to a popup. Should be enough of a warning

"Forewarned is Forearmed" my old man always said.....

 

[scutarii]

remember my "oasis swarm" picture?

this is no better, actually even...more...um...overpowered

 

[Sephi]

late game ancient forests have the same yields grassland 2/0 AF 1/1 Farm 1/0 Sanitation 1/0. And the Mazatl can't simpy bloom the whole map. With Guilds, even a grassland workshop gives 1/4, in AF it is 2/5.

If something is overpowered, it is not exclusively to the Mazatl.

Oasis spawning is very random. So once in a while you will get a lot of oasis close by.

 

[graywarden]

I would have to concur with Sephi, the Oasis Swarm was an anomoly most likely. I have not seen anything quite to that extreme yet.

The enviroment by culture is another matter, the elves have the ancient forest, the lizards have the jungle, and the malakim have the sand.

I am 42% into my Malakim Test, and just out of curiousity, I made my first mana mode a water one. I am unable to to turn desert into plains with the Spring spell. So as a player I am forced to accept the predetermined path of the programmer (can you say arcade)..

Sephi I would like to submit that Enviromental Extreme Jihadism be a players choice with an option like the elves, where you accept the Religion as the Force. Or with some other choice mechanism like you came up with regarding the Cult of Esus.

Lets give the player a choice of going "natural" or "extreme" or dare i say "vanilla" haha.