a discussion of the causes of the divergence of American politics and culture

No, I would not say North Korea is a fascist state. It does not fulfill all core tenets of fascism. Nork is not a corporatist state, it has pseudo-communist economy and people are not seperated by occupation (afaik). Nork is also not an authoritarian state, rather is is an autocracy. The difference is nuanced, but it is there: An autocracy is ruled by a single, individual actor. An authoritarian regime is ruled by a political organ, which is often a party, but can also be a (para-) military group or something else entirely. (Note: Of course I doubt that Kim really exercises 100% of the power and makes every decision himself, he might even be a pawn, but just for the sake of argument we shall assume that he does control all the organs of the state). There is also an argument to be made about Nork's autarky, seeing as how they are very much dependant on Russia and China for survival, but then again in a globalized world, complete autarky is impossible anyway. To sum it up, I wouldn't consider Nork to be a fascist state, but they are insanely close, maybe closer than any other existing state, to true italian fascism, so your observation was spot on.
 
I don't think this is a good argument. The lebensraum thing was a quirk of National Socialism, which in turn is substantially different from "fascism proper" as conceived by Mussolini and his gang.

That is absolutely false. The real difference was that German lebensraum emphasized the genocide of conquered peoples rather than their subjugation.

@yung.carl.jung, are you sure that the definition of fascism shouldn't include the 'right of conquest' advocated by the two most successful and emblematic fascist movements? If you're basing it on Francoist Spain not following suit, it seems a little like defining Marxism as nationalist because the North Koreans/Chinese/Soviets were.

Any analysis of fascism in the US must start from the fact that the US is a decaying hegemon rather than a second-rate Great Power, resentful and looking to upset the global order. The US is currently interested in maintaining the favorable geopolitical order, and has been slowly losing the ability to do so since 1945.

I'm not even sure what this means. American imperialism, by any reasonable definition, is as unlike fascist doctrines of expansion as any two policies could be (although the former is hardly a policy).

Ironically, even as Trump and the far right seem to be fueled partially by resentment over this state of affairs, the stupidity of the Trumpoids and the Republicans more generally is drastically accelerating the rate at which the US loses its grip on global hegemony.

Chomskyites have been saying this for decades, but I'm afraid we still live in a very unipolar world.
 
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I was thinking about including territorial expansion as one of the cornerstones of Fascism, but then I figured a state of Mussolianian' fascism could also exist as an isolationist state, especially taking into account the economic autarky. The question here is how central was this idea of Spazio Vitale to Mussolinis ideology? I am no expert and will not pretend to be. There is very little source material in the Wiki article. Do you have any clue whether it was Mussolini who came up with the concept first or Hitler? Because clearly one copied the other, even the name is the exact same, the Italian concept is just more tame.
 
@yung.carl.jung, are you sure that the definition of fascism shouldn't include the 'right of conquest' advocated by the two most successful and emblematic fascist movements? If you're basing that on Francoist Spain not following suit, it seems a little like defining Marxism as nationalist because the North Koreans/Chinese/Soviets were.

Perhaps worth mentioning the Kellogg–Briand Pact, which outlawed the annexation of territory by force. Obviously this was rejected by the fascist states.
 
No offense, but the both of you have got fascism slightly wrong

I don't really disagree with the definition you've put forward here. I also never really defined fascism, just said that most of trump's voters want the same things fascists want.
Additionally, the corporatism in 1930s fascism was specifically characterized by the creation of corporatist organizations under the aegis of the Party, with the ultimate ambition of using the Party to supplant both civil society and the state, erasing the distinction between the two.

As for "spazio vitale" iirc it is a copy of lebensraum. I'm pretty sure lebensraum is from the 19th century and even earlier.

I'm not even sure what this means. American imperialism, by any reasonable definition, is as unlike fascist doctrines of expansion as any two policies could be (although the former is hardly a policy).

It's not a comparison between us empire and fascist expansionism in the thirties. It's about geopolitical context. Fascism in the US isn't going to be defined by that same kind of military expansionism, because the US is in a geopolitical position completely different from where germany and italy were in the thirties. The US already went through its lebensraum phase, we call it Manifest destiny.
 
The absurd notion that a nation has no borders is outrageous when by definition a nation has territory.

The Obama administration LOST in the Supreme Court more than any modern president. Why? Because of disgusting federalism so unchecked that the court whipped his head back.

In 2016, a stunning blow way made as his illegal immigration executive orders were completely stymied by the Supreme Court...something even middle school kids know in America. He was circumventing the US Congress by creating his own legislation on immigration...a totally vile way of abusing the power of the executive.

Immigration legislation is solely determined by Congress save veto power by the President. But this demogoguery by Obama refused to comply with the checks and balances of the American Republic.
The legitimacy of legislation is judged by judicial review but Obama tried to totally bypass this process with executive orders.

You do not want me to get started on this. You would not believe the audacious policies Obama created. There are shocking overreaches say in the case of war where complete fascistic seizure of the entire nation would occur including labor camps of Americans where they would not be paid but produce for the government.

That is why there is polarization. I cannot wait to reveal these public records. No modern president, heck no president...not even Washington or Lincoln in times of war within the US considered interning Americans to produce goods! Slavery...that was his executive order. Slavery.
 
Obama's Executive Order 13603 imposes slavery in the USA in times of war or national emergency. What in the world would have happened had WW3 happened under his administration? What if there had been a pandemic like 1918?

A long string of his executive orders seizes ALL property. All vehicles. All communication.All fuel sources and utilities. All food.

It is the written orders of a lunatic.
 
Obama's Executive Order 13603

Snopes said:
Despite claims that the executive order provided the President with unprecedented new powers such as declaring martial law, seizing private property, implementing the rationing of food, gasoline, and drugs, restarting peacetime conscription, and nationalizing America industry, merely by declaring a national emergency, the National Defense Resources Preparedness EO issued by President Obama was simply a minor updating of a similar order issued by President Bill Clinton in 1994 (which itself had decades-old predecessors) and amended several times since.

Your post is parroting a widely recognized lie. Go peddle it somewhere else.
 
Who passed the original order? FDR?
 
I don't really disagree with the definition you've put forward here. I also never really defined fascism, just said that most of trump's voters want the same things fascists want.
Additionally, the corporatism in 1930s fascism was specifically characterized by the creation of corporatist organizations under the aegis of the Party, with the ultimate ambition of using the Party to supplant both civil society and the state, erasing the distinction between the two.

As for "spazio vitale" iirc it is a copy of lebensraum. I'm pretty sure lebensraum is from the 19th century and even earlier.

So everything I said was pretty much correct, thanks. Let's move on.

It's not a comparison between us empire and fascist expansionism in the thirties. It's about geopolitical context. Fascism in the US isn't going to be defined by that same kind of military expansionism, because the US is in a geopolitical position completely different from where germany and italy were in the thirties. The US already went through its lebensraum phase, we call it Manifest destiny.

How does American imperialism lend itself to fascism? You haven't even attempted to explain this, and I can't really respond until you do so.
 
Had Donald Trump issued 12 Executive Orders like Obama, where Orwellian control would effectively abolish the Republic, a new Revolution would begin.

But Obama does it, and the Democrats yawn. This is precisely making my point. You fawn over him, a man who created executive orders that sound like some polices from North Korea, then get incensed by tweets from Trump.

It is bizarre Twilight Zone stuff.

Be a good critical thinker and read the text yourself with no spindoctoring.
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=100050
Look it up.

It is the most despicable damning executive order in history. Not even internment camps were this bad under FDR...another Democrat.
 
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Who passed the original order? FDR?

Yeah. It has been updated by pretty much every president since. Obama's "sweeping grab for power" mostly consisted of replacing references to other agencies with the words "Department of Homeland Security" since the Bush administration didn't update it when they created the Department of Homeland Security.
 
It is bizarre Twilight Zone stuff.

No, it's actually a bald faced lie that swept around the conservative echo chamber years ago. For the most part everyone that tries to maintain a shred of credibility gave it up when they got confronted with the truth. Currently only the serious lunatic fringe like Alex Jonesers remain steadfast in claiming it has any credibility.
 
Read it yourself. You can lead a horse to water but not make him drink.

By all means read political commentary from diverse sources, but Alex Jones is an entertainer, not a political commentator.

Read it and be dumbfounded by the total overreach.

It is a damning document that utterly shreds the Bill of Rights.
 
Read it yourself. You can lead a horse to water but not make him drink.

By all means read political commentary from diverse sources, but Alex Jones is an entertainer, not a political commentator.

Read it and be dumbfounded by the total overreach.

It is a damning document that utterly shreds the Bill of Rights.

LOL...I did read it. That's how I know what a bald faced whopping lie your posts are parroting. The changes made under the Obama administration did exactly what I said...replaced obsolete terms with "Department of Homeland Defense." The order has been standing for DECADES, and until a black president changed a few words no one gave it any particular concern, because it never has merited any. But when Obama did the same updating and housekeeping in the file of standing executive orders as every president before him did, "conservatives" flipped out. Why is that, do you think?
 
LOL...I did read it. That's how I know what a bald faced whopping lie your posts are parroting. The changes made under the Obama administration did exactly what I said...replaced obsolete terms with "Department of Homeland Defense." The order has been standing for DECADES, and until a black president changed a few words no one gave it any particular concern, because it never has merited any. But when Obama did the same updating and housekeeping in the file of standing executive orders as every president before him did, "conservatives" flipped out. Why is that, do you think?
'Cause he's a seekrit kenyan muslim bred in a KGB Biotank by an international terrorist coalition of Iran, N. Korea, Cuba, Pakistan, China, Luxembourg and Iceland!
 
'Cause he's a seekrit kenyan muslim bred in a KGB Biotank by an international terrorist coalition of Iran, N. Korea, Cuba, Pakistan, China, Luxembourg and Iceland!

Can you cite a source for that?

Never mind, of course you can. I could probably find half a dozen without even using a search engine.
 
I don't have a source but i do have a Link!
 
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