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A moderate warmonger penalty is -16!!??

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Dustbrother, Oct 22, 2016.

  1. pietro1990

    pietro1990 Prince

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    could you share this mod with me i would even donate money if you could fix this problem its so annoying i stopped playing the game.
     
  2. nokmirt

    nokmirt Emperor

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    Yeah exactly, why didn't they take into account what worked with civ 5 and apply it to 6. We should not have to wait two years for them to learn the same lesson again.
     
    pietro1990 likes this.
  3. RealHuhn

    RealHuhn Emperor

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    Warmonger penalties are fairly high initially but they also decrease pretty quickly. I kinda like it to be honest. Usually the unfriendly AIs denounce me but after a while relationships are back to normal again.
     
  4. neilkaz

    neilkaz King

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    To FYP say that WM penalties are MUCH too high, especially later in the game.

    How can I find out what my WM penalty score is? Where does one find numbers like -16?
     
  5. King Jason

    King Jason Fleece-bearer

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    I'm not going around making stuff up;
    Spoiler :






    Saladin:
    Open Borders: +3
    Favorable Trade: +8
    Trade Routes: +2
    Delegate: +3 (Now an embassy, which is +5)

    Total: +16 (+18 as an embassy)

    Catherine:
    Open Borders: +3
    Favorable Trade: +10
    Delegate: +3 (Now an embassy, which is +5)

    Total +16 (+18 as an embassy)


    Catherine doesn't even have a trade route, which minimum would be another +2. So Yes. I'm saying that a war should equal that stuff because if you spend time building relations before you aggress against any of the other players, they effectively cancel each other out. You'll likely have the declared friend modifier (+9) and eventually ally modifier that offsets a lot of warmongering too. However, as previously stated, you can get close to +30 without being allies or even factoring in their agenda. Which means there are even more modifiers to grab, if you're able.

    Now, you're not necessarily wrong that the A.I. should factor in it's feelings about the Target. Then again, I think in the current diplomatic landscape, that would give the player a lot of easy targets.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2016
    KumaChan, atomfenrir and Big J Money like this.
  6. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    in mine domination game i finished today mine max was -255 warmongering penalty... after 7 declared wars and took around 20 cities :)

    warmonger penatly makes diplomacy completely irrelevant...again...
     
    fatgordy likes this.
  7. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    You have clearly spent a long time building up that relationship as you already have embassies and alliances. Would you have been able to take the diplo hit in the early medieval era just after you researched crossbows?

    The main problem I see is that this clearly favors early rushing. Taking out an AI or a few city states early with archers and warriors is super strong and too easy already. The fact that you can do this without warmonger penalties while you would suffer severe penalties if you wait a bit with the war makes it very hard to justify any other early game strategy. If you want to grab some extra land and also maintain relationships with some other AI for trading you have to go for an early rush.
     
    KumaChan likes this.
  8. King Jason

    King Jason Fleece-bearer

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    Remove the embassies and alliances and I still have +31 with both Saladin and Catherine, which was the point. Also I went to war in the medieval era in that game.
     
  9. dexters

    dexters Gods & Emperors Supporter

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    7 wars and 20 cities is a lot of take. I know it's fairly standard in Civ terms, but it's always bugged me as being unrealistic. Any human player who sees an AI start that many wars with that many captured cities would classify that Civ as a warmonger. This feels a bit like a double standard to me. And I don't really blame you as we've been conditioned to it in every Civ game up to Civ5.

    I like this strategy myself where there are small frequent wars to nibble away at the AI, avoiding capital cities etc.. Lots of non-core cities in Civ5 give very little warmonger penalty, and those cities could contain all the luxuries and strategic resources I need.
    It felt like a no-brainer to me to go to war.

    Now, I'm not sure where I stand on this yet. I see where people are coming from as I went from liked/neutral to denounced with just one (industrial era) war. Though I went in with eyes wide open as the warmonger penalty was 'severe' in the casus belli tab.

    I need more games played, but I feel like there's a bit of wanting to have our cakes and eat it too. If we want discrete builder vs. warmonger games then penalties on the warmonger side makes sense, but the subtext I see tend to be wanting to take 5-10 cities (just enough to grow into a winning position) with near zero penalty save for the victim or victims of our aggression. I'm not sure I can agree with that if we're thinking about 'improving' the diplomacy beyond our comfort zones.

    I Will report in when I feel like I have more to contribute but that's my 2 cents.
     
    TraderInvader likes this.
  10. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    Wait, nobody liked you just because you were trying to take over the world? Crazy, man.
     
    nzcamel likes this.
  11. Ashbery76

    Ashbery76 Warlord

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    I am finding more or less impossible to have friends even when having CB and only taking 5 cities till the modern age.
     
  12. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    No you don't. You have +18 and +21 if you factor in the negative modifiers as well. If you declare war and capture a city you'd be in the negative.

    Your largest bonuses come from favorable trades. Do you get +10 from that somehow in a very short time, or is it something that builds up over time? I just tried gifting the AI a city and that gave no positive trade modifier at all.
     
  13. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    At the very least there needs to be a reduction in penalty from an ally in a joint war, as they are enabling your behavior even if it unnerves them somewhat (me trying to rationalize a penalty from them at all).

    Yeah, defensive aquasitions should come at a lower penalty too (Unless you're Israel of course ;) ).
     
  14. sanchopanda

    sanchopanda Chieftain

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    The warmonger penalties are a bit annoying and it seems even the AI don't want to declare war because of this. I've made a simple mod and it seems to work fine. Just extract the content to C:\Users\<Whatever>\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization VI\Mods and select the mod in "Additional Content". Feel free to change the numbers within the Warmonger.xml :)

    Edit:
    I changed the values to 0, 4, 8, 12, 16, 20, 20, 20.
    The original values are 0, 8, 16, 24, 32, 32, 32, 32.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Oct 23, 2016
  15. Our_DeCay

    Our_DeCay Chieftain

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    Nice! I think I will try this after a couple more games (just in my second game now).

    In my opinion it would be solid if the penalties were multiplied by a value which represents how much a leader likes the one you DOW.
    So 100% of the current warmonger values when leader A is allied with the DOWed. 80% when they have a DoF. 60% when they are friendly. 40% when neutral. 20% when unfriendly. 0% when enemies.
    A joint war should, as stated before by others, have no penalty to the one you declare it with and even add positive values if you are actively warring them (taking cities).
     
  16. mnf

    mnf King

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    Actually, it is fine to have warmonger penalties with even the civ you went to joint war with. There's nothing wrong with me thinking you're a warmonger and me having a blast pillaging the lands along your side.

    I think the problem with warmonger is that it's too simplified. Perhaps it should be a two dimensional vector. One axis for Ruthlessness in war, the other axis for Warmongering.
    • Ruthlessness increases if you raze cities (+20), keep cities you conquer (+10), pillage lands (+0.5). Ruthlessness decreases (-0.1) for each turn during a war where you have no military units within your enemy's borders. The increases and decreases are kept separate, and at the end of the war, your Ruthlessness will only decrease if there are no increases, otherwise it will only increase and your decreases are thrown away.
    • Warmongering increases if you declare a surprise war (+20), a formal war (+10), agree to a joint war (+5). Your actions during any war has no bearing whatsoever on your warmongering status. During peace time, each military unit you have within 2 tiles of the border of another civ or city state will +1 to Warmongering. Warmongering decays very slowly over time (something like -0.5 per turn, so a 100 Warmonger on turn 100 would need to be peaceful for 200 turns to get 0 Warmongering).
    This way a player could be:
    • Ruthless peace-keeper (200 Ruthlessness, 0 Warmongering) meaning you never provoke war, but if war comes to you, you will make it worth your time. The international community regards you as a trust-worthy leader and other civilizations are much less likely to agree to a joint war on you. Friendly civilizations are more likely to consider an alliance with you.
    • Kind peace-keeper (0 Ruthlessness, 0 Warmongering) means you don't really care what's happening. You defend your lands and that's it. Warmongering civs see you as an good target as "there's no harm in trying". Civilizations are more likely to agree to attack you. Friendly civilizations are less likely to agree to an alliance with you.
    • Incompetent warmonger (0 Ruthlessness, 200 Warmongering) means you suck at war so much yet still behave like a mad dog chasing after everyone. You are regarded as an annoyance to the world and other civilizations are less likely to agree to an joint war with you.
    • Ruthless warmonger (200 Ruthlessness, 200 Warmongering) means you are the cold-hearted killing machine. Other civilizations are likely to agree to a joint war with you because you guarantee results. Peaceful civilizations are more likely to bunch together and create alliances when you are in the game.
     
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  17. Chaleb

    Chaleb Chieftain

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    I don't think you're using the Causus Belli. Formal War is basically one step above surprise war but it's still pretty bad.
     
  18. pietro1990

    pietro1990 Prince

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    Thats because he is your friend. My problem is that Ai get angry at you for one war if you aren't friends with them.

    Can you olso delete the warmonger penalty?

    Olso i like the mod maybe you should publish it at the forum civ 6 mod forum. so other people could see it. We are not the only one complaining.
     
  19. pietro1990

    pietro1990 Prince

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    Formal war doesn't work you still get enormous penalty.
     
  20. mnf

    mnf King

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    Previously, I said that capturing an enemy city from someone who declared surprise war on me made me Egregious.

    Now he declared again (this time Formal War) and within 5 turns or so I noticed that city I kept got -8 war weariness. It's a 15-pop city. And in a few turns (it's unhappy so no time to build amenities) it riots.

    It feels as if there's no point to playing peacefully (unless you absolutely can't win in a war). The moment conflict starts, it's either full out annihilation, meaning all enemy cities razed except their capital, or you turtle and don't march out. Taking a few cities at a time simply makes the city extremely hard to manage because the whole city turns on you the moment you enter war again against their original owner. And in another few turns, barbarian units of your current tech level spawn around the city.

    While my enemies are still using crossbowmen, I'm now facing infantry barbarians. All my other cities are sitting at 0 war weariness, either at happy or ecstatic status.

    It's either something very obvious that I'm missing, or the balance is way out of whack...I'd expect something like this only in a game like Heart of Iron, but then with some very clear preventative counter-measures. :(
     

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